It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Koran a FAKE

page: 9
9
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 08:21 AM
link   
Ok…….I’ve got the solution……Christianity adopted some of its concepts from the Pagan religion……

The Qu’ran, was made after the bible was many hundreds of years later…. it was basically made for the soul purpose of rising up against the Christians……if it wasn’t for the bible, there’d be no Qu’ran……

If it wasn’t for the Roman empire using the Christian religion as a method of mass population control…..there’d be no Christianity……

And so…… the Bible is fake because it has no real truth to it…..it was only used for power and control……the Qu’ran is fake because it also has no truth t it…..it was used to get back at the Christians…..

Check Mate……………


( I’m just now listing to 'come on Eileen' for no real reason I thought I might just through that in....
)




[edit on 23-1-2008 by andre18]




posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 10:38 AM
link   


But the solid sign this is Jesus who Moses is referring to comes in another one of Moses' prophecies also found in Deuteronomy. It says this prophet will come before the Jews lose their judicial power. In the Jewish Talmud, the Jews are lamenting the loss of judicial power and are questioning where is the one promised by Moses with the following words:
"Woe to us! For the scepter has departed from Judah but the Messiah has not yet come!"


Kindly provide me the reference and it’s inter-relation to Deuteronomy 18:18

Here is the Islamic interpretation of it:



If being a Jew is the criteria for this prophecy to be fulfilled, then all the Prophets of the Bible who came after Moses (pbuh) such as Solomon, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Malachi, John the Baptist, etc. (pbut) will fulfill this prophecy since all were Jews as well as prophets.

However, it is Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who is like Moses (pbuh). Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention. [Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]. Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children. Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive. (4:157-158) Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons: Ishmail and Isaac (pbut). The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was illiterate and whatever revelations he received from Almighty God he repeated them verbatim.

Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36). Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not." Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).




We know Moses says the Messiah would come before the "scepter departed from Judah" meaning their sovereign judicial power. This was taken away in Jesus' time. He was there- they just didn't believe Him. Forty years later, the Jews were forced out of their homeland and all judicial power was lost to them.


If the prophesied Prophet was there at that time then who was the Prophet which John the Baptist was referring in Mark 1:7 since Jesus was there in his time.

"And he was preaching, and saying, After me one is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals." [Mark 1:7]



What do you guys think of the Satanic verses from Mohammad? Some think this event truly occurred and some say it did not.


You may find such type of accusations on any religion whether its Da Vinci code, Protocols of the elders of Zion or the one you’ve mentioned.

The point is that we can’t just believe that the followers of the second biggest religious community in the world are all Satanists, or can we?



If I'm wrong, kindly translate what you and Unletterd said In English.


Mate, I already translated it in the previous post


Hehehe ..... Now that reminds me of Mark 16:17-18:

“There will be signs for true believers and among the signs - In my name they shall cast out devils, they shall speak foreign tongues, new tongues, they shall take up serpents - And if they drink deadly poison, they shall not be harmed - And when they place their hand over the sick, they shall be cured.”

Seems that kangjia57 is more of a firm believer of Christ
[No offence meant to anybody]



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 01:13 PM
link   
The thing is, I bet this thread could cause a lot of outrage in the muslim world. If a lady had her life in jeapardy over letting her 1st graders name their teddy bear Mohammad, then it is hard to tell what they will think of a thread like this lol. Suppose we proved it to be true. Then we would be the evil ones trying to undo the religion of peace. Screwed up world we live in now for sure.



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 03:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Unlettered
Kindly provide me the reference and it’s inter-relation to Deuteronomy 18:18


Oops, sorry. Now that I look it up (I was going by memory) I see the prophecy was in Genesis (also penned by Moses), not Deuteronomy. Here it is:

"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his. He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch. He will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes." Genesis 49:10-11

Interestingly enough, the Jewish Talmud records this before Jesus makes Himself known as the Messiah. He was still keeping a low profile in Nazareth. Here is how I explain this on my website:


According to this passage, two signs would take place shortly after the Messiah appeared. Judah would lose its scepter/tribal identity and Jewish judicial power would be eradicated. In this verse, the word scepter is best translated into tribal staff. For centuries, each of the twelve tribes of Israel possessed their own tribal staff. This prophecy states the tribal staff, or tribal identity, of Judah would not be lost until the Messiah came. Even when Judah was deprived of its sovereignty during the Babylonian captivity, it never lost its national identity or tribal staff. The people still possessed their own laws, lawgivers, and judges.

Judah began to lose its power when Herod the Great (a Gentile) succeeded the Maccabean dynasty, the last Jewish family to reign in Jerusalem. Furthermore, the legal power of the Sanhedrin was now being limited under Roman domination. This loss of power included the ability to execute capital punishment sometime between 7 and 11 A.D. The Jews believed the Messiah would appear before Judah lost its identity but with the legal restrictions imposed on them by Rome, their power was rapidly diminishing. The question remained: where was the Messiah?

The Jews were well aware of the loss of power. The Jewish Talmud even documents the lamentations of their people with the words Woe unto us, for the scepter has been taken from Judah and the Messiah has not appeared! But the Messiah had appeared. He was Jesus, a humble Galilean teacher, traveling about the countryside.


Of course, none of this negates the possibility that the one reference you give mentions Mohammad but there are several dozens of Messianic prophecies in the Torah, including Deuteronomy. Jesus fulfilled them all. He also fulfilled them in the time they were to be fulfilled. Not Mohammad from what I am seeing.

I'm sure you know Christians believe Jesus did die a natural death before ascending. This is also attested to through secular historians of His time. But I have another question and I do not mean it to be an offense. Muslims believe the Christian and Jewish Bibles are somewhat correct but also distorted. So, how can a Muslim quote from our texts? How do you know which verses are authentic and which ones are distorted? It sounds like a game of pick and choose to me.

Edited to add:


“There will be signs for true believers and among the signs... they shall speak foreign tongues, new tongues...”


This specifically means "speaking in tongues," as in a gift of the Holy Spirit. Think of modern Pentecostal Christians and what happened at Pentecost after believers received the Holy Spirit. lol On the other hand, the Bible says a group of people will come "Whose language we have not heard, whose language is a strange tongue, and whose God is not our God." These people will persecute Christians and Jews in the end times. And if you know my opinion of the Mahdi, you will see where I'm coming from.

[edit on 1/23/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 03:30 PM
link   

Originally posted by AshleyD
How do you know which verses are authentic and which ones are distorted? It sounds like a game of pick and choose to me.


Actually, they are partially correct in the issue of distortions. There are places where the original language does not directly translate well. For example, "thou shalt not kill" is more correctly translated "thou shalt not murder".

To truely undertand even the KJV, one must closely study the original text and seek a more direct translation of certian words. This site will help.....

cf.blueletterbible.org...

I wish such existed for the Koran that is this specific.............



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 03:38 PM
link   

Originally posted by heliosprime

Originally posted by AshleyD
How do you know which verses are authentic and which ones are distorted? It sounds like a game of pick and choose to me.


Actually, they are partially correct in the issue of distortions. There are places where the original language does not directly translate well. For example, "thou shalt not kill" is more correctly translated "thou shalt not murder".

To truely undertand even the KJV, one must closely study the original text and seek a more direct translation of certian words. This site will help.....

cf.blueletterbible.org...

I wish such existed for the Koran that is this specific.............



Exactly. Common sense tells us any literary work translated into another language will have some issues due to idioms or certain words that do not have a proper translation in the other language. So, I tell them to go to the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic with the use of lexicons. lol As for the KJV, I don't use it too often as it was translated 400 years ago. Common sense tells us linguistic scholars have learned much since then and can offer us more accurate and up to day translation. But this does not change the Greek and Hebrew "originals." For some reason, people who want to debate the Bible and it's "errors" with me almost always quote the KJV. So, I direct them to some websites like you posted above. It's common sense a secondary language will not be exact but it gets the main purpose of the Bible across: Salvation. If you want to get into some serious textual examination, then consort the originals. Not the translations. Argh! LOL!



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 04:04 PM
link   

Originally posted by jackieisinlove
Unfortunately, it seems that Christians basically aren't allowed to have opinions. If they have a negative opinion on any belief (not even necessarily religion) other than Christianity, well, their religion's a load of BS so they have no right to talk.

So I really don't understand why 80% of this thread is about Christianity. There are enough threads about how Christianity is a bunch of hullabaloo. I clicked on this because I wanted to learn about the Koran.



Originally posted by tnt3kgt
As Ashley has stated multiple times people often attack Christianity with Kudos and walk on eggshells around those of Muslim faith as if merely discussing it were taboo.


This is so true and why I was called a bigot and ignorant in this thread. If we notice, not a single Muslim on this thread accused anyone of this. It was all the outsiders who are neither Christian or Muslim that stuck their noses in everything. Christians and Muslims seem to be enjoying this thread in spite of the objections from the peanut gallery.

If the Koran is questionable, let's discuss it. If a religion claims another religion is false or distorted, then let's discuss the evidence that backs up this accusation. It's not bigotry or intolerance. It's a question. Even the Muslims on this thread have been smart enough to realize this. Why can't everyone else?



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 04:49 PM
link   
I'm all for what you just said Ashley. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing topics as such with tolerance.
Firstly, your claims of the satanic verses came from what is termed a "Western Scholar" of The Qur'an - William Muir. Muir - known to be a harsh critic of The Qur'an - claims that under the circumstances Mohamad was living in (a society filled with polytheists and indulgences that lacked spirituality), that Mohamad had spiritual stress. He uses the fact that after receiving the revelation from Gabriel, Mohammad was in such a state of distress that he had to be comforted by his wife Khadija to try and imply the Prophet was mentally ill. (Just as a side note here: I think anyone who received a revelation as such would be in an utter state of schock and need some comforting). Now Muir does not deny that there was in fact some sort of religious revelation, but his main claim is that the Prophet Mohamad (an illiterate by the way) wrote the Qur'an himself. Muir's appraoch to the Qur'an is heavily critiqued by other Western Scholars such as Ernst, Graham and Cantwell Smith.
Also, keep in mind that many of these Western Scholars are Christian and as such are studying The Qur'an with:
a) an alraedy preconcevied Christian ideal creating a biase
b)their conception of what a scripture is (ie Like that of the Hebrew Bible and The New Testament) which is quite different from the Muslim definition of a scripture.
As for the validity of The Qur'an I gave some points in my previous post with regards to scientific discoveries that correlate with what is written in The Qur'an (feel free to go back a couple of pages and check them out) and have not yet received a response or rebutle of any sort from any one. Maybe I'm just not cool enough



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 05:39 PM
link   

Originally posted by RAYES
I'm all for what you just said Ashley. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing topics as such with tolerance.





Firstly, your claims of the satanic verses


It wasn't a claim but a question. I personally know very little about the Satanic verses other than what you have stated and know the term was coined by a Western scholar and not Muslims and thought this would be the appropriate thread to be up the subject.


...came from what is termed a "Western Scholar" of The Qur'an - William Muir. Muir - known to be a harsh critic of The Qur'an


Although Muir coined the term "Satanic verses" which was obviously done to assume negative connotations, I am under the impression other Muslim scholars this event was believed to have occurred although they were not referred to by the term Muir used. Can you explain how such a rumor came about, why some believe it is true, and how they come to their conclusions that this event never happened? I understand about the goddesses of the pagans but where/why did this rumor surface?


...but his main claim is that the Prophet Mohamad (an illiterate by the way) wrote the Qur'an himself.


Thanks for pointing that out. Unlettered also helped me with that question. But according to the events, it was not that Mohammad pointed out a text to them but that he told them verbally the worship of pagan goddesses was acceptable. You don't have to be literate to preach or to recite a revelation.


As for the validity of The Qur'an I gave some points in my previous post with regards to scientific discoveries that correlate with what is written in The Qur'an


The Christian Bible does this as well, most specifically in the Old Testament. There is so much scientific knowledge in the Bible that books upon books have been written about this. Some of the medicinal, geological, and astronomical science was way before it's time and has been proven by modern science.


(feel free to go back a couple of pages and check them out) and have not yet received a response or rebutle of any sort from any one.


I saw your post but never took the time to "rebut" it because, as stated, the Bible also has massive amounts of scientific foreknowledge within the texts, even more so than the Koran, and I also didn't want to derail the thread by picking apart Islam or the belief. So, yes. The Koran does have some references to knowledge but in order to not derail the thread, I will hold my tongue on my opinion about it as to not be accused of being a bigot again.


[edit on 1/23/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 07:05 PM
link   

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by RAYES
I'm all for what you just said Ashley. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussing topics as such with tolerance.





Firstly, your claims of the satanic verses


It wasn't a claim but a question. I personally know very little about the Satanic verses other than what you have stated and know the term was coined by a Western scholar and not Muslims and thought this would be the appropriate thread to be up the subject.


...came from what is termed a "Western Scholar" of The Qur'an - William Muir. Muir - known to be a harsh critic of The Qur'an


Although Muir coined the term "Satanic verses" which was obviously done to assume negative connotations, I am under the impression other Muslim scholars this event was believed to have occurred although they were not referred to by the term Muir used. Can you explain how such a rumor came about, why some believe it is true, and how they come to their conclusions that this event never happened? I understand about the goddesses of the pagans but where/why did this rumor surface?


...but his main claim is that the Prophet Mohamad (an illiterate by the way) wrote the Qur'an himself.


Thanks for pointing that out. Unlettered also helped me with that question. But according to the events, it was not that Mohammad pointed out a text to them but that he told them verbally the worship of pagan goddesses was acceptable. You don't have to be literate to preach or to recite a revelation.


As for the validity of The Qur'an I gave some points in my previous post with regards to scientific discoveries that correlate with what is written in The Qur'an


The Christian Bible does this as well, most specifically in the Old Testament. There is so much scientific knowledge in the Bible that books upon books have been written about this. Some of the medicinal, geological, and astronomical science was way before it's time and has been proven by modern science.


(feel free to go back a couple of pages and check them out) and have not yet received a response or rebutle of any sort from any one.


I saw your post but never took the time to "rebut" it because, as stated, the Bible also has massive amounts of scientific foreknowledge within the texts, even more so than the Koran, and I also didn't want to derail the thread by picking apart Islam or the belief. So, yes. The Koran does have some references to knowledge but in order to not derail the thread, I will hold my tongue on my opinion about it as to not be accused of being a bigot again.


[edit on 1/23/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 07:14 PM
link   
reply to post by heliosprime
 


So, reading the article (posted as it is on a site that brags about it's opposition to Islam, nice sourcing) it looks like they're talking about a rumor about secret documents that nobody's ever actually seen followed by accusations of "suppression" - Now maybe the good folks here on ATS who point to lack of evidence as all the evidence they need for anything with one hand, and burn Mohammed in effigy with the other, will accept this, but I have a harder time swallowing tripe.

Now, supposing this article has some basis, what it would seem to be pointing out is that as Islam spread, the Koran got written, re-written, edited, annoted, revised, etc, in all difgferent places it reached. Well duh. It wasn't until the rise of the Ottoman Empire that any attempt at a single definitive Koran was made, and even today there are what, five standard translations of the Sunni version, three, I think for the Shi'a, and several for the Sufis, Salafis, and other branches.

In other words, the koran works kinda like the fifty different versions of the bible, and anyone who seems surprised by this probably has no clue about Islam (and likely believes Jesus spoke Medieval English, too)



posted on Jan, 23 2008 @ 07:29 PM
link   
reply to post by AshleyD
 


Sorry I'm new to this forum and don't really know how to Quote.
Anyhow, as for the scientific evidence it is in no way derailing from the topic because it proves a point of validity.
www.witness-pioneer.org...
Here's the work of French Doctor Maurice Bucaille with regards to the scientific evidence of Qur'an and Bible. In his studies he found some inconsistency with science and The Bible while claiming The Qur'an and Science go hand in hand. In fact, it was him (and not Muslim Scholars) who discovered many of these scientific proofs in The Qur'an.
Note however, that he had to learn Arabic to do so. The Qur'an remains in Arabic till today mainly because Arabic is a very powerful language thereby being suitable for the exrpression of God's revelation but also because the Muslim community fears losing meaning in translation.

As for the Pagan Goddesses I honestly do not know. I am recently converted from Catholicism and in an approach to Qur'an class now at my uni where we discussed that issue so thought I'd throw my two cents. I am not an expert however, but in the process of learning. To me its ideals are beautiful, and it is a faith that teaches an endless quest for knowledge as is expressed in The Qur'an (hence its multiple interpretations and many meanings behind phrases). In fact, and I am just pointing this out because its pretty cool, there is certain Surahs (Chapters) that begin with the recitation of just letters. Many interpretations and meanings have been given to these letters, but what is interesting is that if you collect them all and rearrange them, they spell out in Arabic: A wise book with a great secret.

For the record, I never called you a bigot



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 02:12 AM
link   
Reply to TheWalkingFox

So, reading the article (posted as it is on a site that brags about it's opposition to Islam, nice sourcing) it looks like they're talking about a rumor about secret documents that nobody's ever actually seen.

So why don’t you ask your local library to get some Islamic books Eg.Quran translation in English,Hadiths in english,Seerah (the life of Prophet Muhammad (peac be upon him) in English. You cant just sit on your pc and expect these books/documents come walking to you.
You have find them or buy them.

five standard translations of the Sunni version, three, I think for the Shi'a, and several for the Sufis, Salafis, and other branches.

The translation of the actual text is same no matter what sect you are from. Its just the commentary next to the text that might differ abit.But the actual text in Quran and the translation to is Totally same.


[edit on 24-1-2008 by kangjia57]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 02:22 AM
link   
www.youtube.com...

Sure that is not the best source to use, however it is the intresting video.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 04:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by Coopdog
Then we would be the evil ones trying to undo the religion of peace.


I'm not a decadent middle european or anything so I am not terrified of Islam or Muslims. AT ALL. So let me see if I got this clear.

Islam, a self-proclaimed religion of peace, violently violates all the societies it infests at the slightest provocation.

This must be some exciting new meaning of the word "peace" that the general agnostic CIVILISED world has never heard of. Cow Sura anyone? Real peaceful. Sure.


As for the Q'uran being younger and less genuine than claimed... Surprise surprise. It's pretty old news. There is even a comparative religion website that, from its own flamingly arrogant and extremely prejudiced "Christian" point of view nevertheless with notable objectivity compares the Bible and the Q'uran for historicity and accuracy related to historical known events and places and so on.

The Bible comes out way ahead. And that includes opinions and analysis from people HOSTILE to it. Even the fervent apologists for the Q'uran have to resort to blowing people up or threatening them with violence like the barbarians they are rather than address the sensible rational arguments AGAINST an early date for the Q'uran.

And why is any of it important? It would actually be much more impressive if an unbroken oral tradition had been maintained than clinging to some insane rulebook.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 06:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Now, supposing this article has some basis, what it would seem to be pointing out is that as Islam spread, the Koran got written, re-written, edited, annoted, revised, etc, in all difgferent places it reached. Well duh. It wasn't until the rise of the Ottoman Empire that any attempt at a single definitive Koran was made, and even today there are what, five standard translations of the Sunni version, three, I think for the Shi'a, and several for the Sufis, Salafis, and other branches.

In other words, the koran works kinda like the fifty different versions of the bible, and anyone who seems surprised by this probably has no clue about Islam (and likely believes Jesus spoke Medieval English, too)


The bible has more than one set of original texts dating back thousands of years. There is no comparison between those texts and anything in the Koran written by whoever. The missing koran texts are exactly the ones that prove the koran is fake.

The bible is the written word of GOD, Jesus, the "real" prophets that are of GOD.

The koran is an assembly of satanic TRIPE!. The only "clue" one needs about isalm is that it requires worship of a false god, deny's Jesus as son of the real GOD, teaches its followers to LIE, MURDER, and HATE. And murder anyone who questions the false teachings. Even down to nameing a"teddybear" muhammad.

The founding texts of koran are FAKE, as is the entire lie to those who follow the fake and false allah, and his liar muhammad.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 07:08 AM
link   

Originally posted by AshleyD
Although Muir coined the term "Satanic verses" which was obviously done to assume negative connotations, I am under the impression other Muslim scholars this event was believed to have occurred although they were not referred to by the term Muir used. Can you explain how such a rumor came about, why some believe it is true, and how they come to their conclusions that this event never happened? I understand about the goddesses of the pagans but where/why did this rumor surface?


Hey AshleyD, hope you don't mind me answering this question for you. The source of the story is from Al-Tabiri's book, some 300 years after Muhammad died. We cannot, however, blame Al-Tabiri if there are any inaccuracies, because he stated pretty clearly in the introduction that none of it is from himself, it is all from narrators.
As for why it is considered to be false, there are a number of reasons:

1) The chain of narrators: all versions of the story have the chain of narration something along the lines of (starting from al-Tabiri, some 300 years after Muhammad's death) - "Ibn Humayd told me, from Salama, from Muhammad ibn Ishaq, from Yazīd ibn Ziyād al-Madanī, from Muhammad ibn Ka'b al-Qurazī" (To Ibn Ka'b, who is still 2 generations removed from Muhammad). Because of this, it is taken as mursal, and is unreliable.

2) The date of revelation of the original verse, and the date of revelation of the "refutation" verse is 8 years apart. However, the account tells us that when the muslims who had migrated to Abyssinia heard of this, they came rushing back, only to find out that it was false, and thus had to migrate a second time to Abyssinia. How could they have found out it was false if the response came 8 years later? More importantly, for those 8 years, why is there no information on the worshiping of the false goddesses by muslims? Why isn't there any report of mass conversions and acceptances by the Meccans (who in the story all were delighted and joined in the with the muslims in their prayer)?

3) The textual continuity of the surah doesn't match up if the original verses are used, and the refutation and the original verses don't match up either.


reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 

Hey, TheWalkingFox, it seems you've been misinformed. The complete Quran, in physical book form was compiled and completed 18 years after Muhammad's death. Also, there are many, many translations of the Quran, but 1 standardised arabic text.


reply to post by heliosprime
 

Hello again heliosprime. You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you say that the Quran is historically lacking, that it wasn't Muhammad it was revealed to, using the new-found texts (although nothing of these texts has been revealed, so at this point, it is all conjecture). Then you say that no, it WAS revealed to Muhammad, but he is a liar, and satanically inspired. You'll excuse me for not taking your word for it?

Since you bring up a comparison of the historicity of the Quran vs. the Bible, I hope you don't mind if I take you up on it?

The oldest copy of any biblical text is from 100AD (although some don't trust the Dead Sea Scrolls), with the oldest copy of any NT biblical text (parts of the Gospel of John, I think), coming a bit later. None of the texts are in the language of Jesus, and none of the texts can be attributed to Jesus.

The oldest copy of any Quranic text is from 622AD (which is during the life of the prophet). The oldest COMPLETE copy has been carbon dated and found to be from 645-690AD (13 to 58 years after the death of Muhammad). The Quran is written in arabic, and can be attributed to Muhammad.


By the way, you STILL haven't responded to my original question.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by babloyi]



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 11:05 AM
link   


I'm sure you know Christians believe Jesus did die a natural death before ascending. This is also attested to through secular historians of His time. But I have another question and I do not mean it to be an offense. Muslims believe the Christian and Jewish Bibles are somewhat correct but also distorted. So, how can a Muslim quote from our texts? How do you know which verses are authentic and which ones are distorted? It sounds like a game of pick and choose to me.


Thanks very much for the details. Muslims believes that The Quran is a continuation as well as the final revelation from the God of Abraham, the God of all the creations. Hence we can quote from the Bible. Here’s a reference from Quran:

“O People of the Book! come to “common terms” as between us and you: that we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with Him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will.)” [Al-Quran: 3: 64]

“Oneness of God as taught in Islam can be found throughout the Bible. In Deuteronomy (32:39) God says, "There is no god beside Me," and in Isaiah (43:10) "Before Me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after Me." In Exodus (8:10) "No one is like the Lord our God," and in Jeremiah (10:6-7) "There is none like unto Thee, O Lord." Other verses stating the same can be found in Deuteronomy (4:35, 4:39, 6:4), Isaiah (45:5, 45:21-22, 46:9), II Samuel (7:22), I Kings (8:60), I Chronicles (17:20), Psalms (86:8, 89:6, 113:5), Hosea (13:4), and Zechariah (14:9). When asked "Which commandment is the first of all?", Jesus (p.b.u.h.) answered, "Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is One." (Mark 12:28-29) Even after the ministry of Jesus (p.b.u.h.), Jesus' apostles understood this oneness of God. Evidence of this is found throughout the epistles. "God is One" (Romans 3:30); "There is no God but One" (I Corinthians 8:4); "One God" (Ephesians 4:6, I Corinthians 8:6, I Timothy 2:5); and Paul writes to James (2:19), "You believe that God is One: you do well."



Jesus is telling His apostles that He must go so this "it" can come……
This specifically means "speaking in tongues," as in a gift of the Holy Spirit. Think of modern Pentecostal Christians and what happened at Pentecost after believers received the Holy Spirit…….


Only Pentecostals ? I thought Jesus was talking about the whole, at least all the Jews if not the humanity.

“These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” [Matthew 10:5-6]



Common sense tells us any literary work translated into another language will have some issues due to idioms or certain words that do not have a proper translation in the other language.


Agreed with you here and I am keen to see your remarks about the Gospel of Barnabas. As far as the “originals” are concerned, so in the Gospel of John 14:16, 15:26, and 16:7. The word 'Comforter' is used in the English translation for the Greek word Paracletos which means advocate or a kind friend rather than a comforter. Paracletos is the warped reading for Periclytos.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 11:09 AM
link   
@ DogHead



There is even a comparative religion website that, from its own flamingly arrogant and extremely prejudiced "Christian" point of view nevertheless with notable objectivity compares the Bible and the Q'uran for historicity and accuracy related to historical known events and places and so on.

The Bible comes out way ahead. And that includes opinions and analysis from people HOSTILE to it.


Moses and Pharaoh of the Exodus



The story of Moses (pbuh) and the Pharaoh of the Exodus are very much identical in the Qur’an and the Bible. Both scriptures agree that the Pharaoh drowned when he tried to pursue Moses (pbuh) and led the Israelites across a stretch of water that they crossed. The Qur’an gives an additional piece of information in Surah Yunus chapter 10 verse 92: “This day shall We save thee in thy body, that thou mayest be a sign to those who come after thee! But verily, many among mankind are heedless of Our Signs!” [Al-Qur’an 10:92]

Dr. Maurice Bucaille, after a thorough research proved that although Rameses II was known to have persecuted the Israelites as per the Bible, he actually died while Moses (pbuh) was taking refuge in Median. Rameses II’s son Merneptah who succeeded him as Pharaoh drowned during the exodus. In 1898, the mummified body of Merneptah was found in the valley of Kings in Egypt. In 1975, Dr. Maurice Bucaille with other doctors received permission to examine the Mummy of Merneptah, the findings of which proved that Merneptah probably died from drowning or a violent shock which immediately preceeded the moment of drowning. Thus the Qur’anic verse that we shall save his body as a sign, has been fulfilled by the Pharaohs’ body being kept at the Royal Mummies room in the Egyptian Museum in Cairo.

This verse of the Qur’an compelled Dr. Maurice Bucaille, who was a Christian then, to study the Qur’an. He later wrote a book ‘The Bible, the Qur’an and Science’, and confessed that the author of the Qur’an can be no one else besides God Himself. Thus he embraced Islam.


I've just mentioned one, you can have a glance on couple of others from here.



posted on Jan, 24 2008 @ 12:47 PM
link   
reply to post by babloyi
 


Thank you so much! I always like hearing the answer from an actual Muslim instead of reading about it from secular sources. Thank you again.


Originally posted by Unlettered
Only Pentecostals ? I thought Jesus was talking about the whole, at least all the Jews if not the humanity.


He did. lol I used Pentecostals as an example because they are the most famous for speaking in tongues. Many other Christians today believe in speaking in tongues but Pentecostals are the most well known.




top topics



 
9
<< 6  7  8    10  11  12 >>

log in

join