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Koran a FAKE

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posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:11 PM
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Reply to porky1981

We were talking about the history of the Kuran, it had nothing to do with terrorism... thank you.

Than your Muslim colleague didn’t have much knowledge about the history of Quran that’s why he probably Shrugged it off.

But you can ask me about the history of Quran and I will try my best to answer it with the best of my knowledge.




posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
Ok my humble noble friend can you tell me how is Quran is fake (with evidence)?


SO what’s the new ‘fake’ thing in Quran?


I'd start with reading the article the original post links to. That seems to be the logical first step as that is what the thread is about.

We can go off on tangents about Allah being a moon God, speculate Mohammad was possessed, and examine history that states Mohammad preached with force. But technically that is neither here nor there. So, start with the article offered in the original post. Debunk, discuss, or validate. I don't care which point of view you take.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:12 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


You seem to be holding the Qu'ran to different standards than you do your own faith. Because it is not your belief, and it's obvious you hold a lot of resentment, if not are plain fearful of this other religion to even begin to understand it. You're all talking as if the Qu'ran should be held accountable for every single word the authors have written, while you praise your book with similar inconsistencies, even praising prophets that were murderers themselves. Moses, anybody?

There were many books that didn't make it for numerous reasons. Too old, too new, didn't make the cut off in time, wasn't discovered yet, deemed heretical, etc..The Gospel of Hebrews, Eusebius, Thomas, not even the Letter of Clement made it. Your bible was nitpicked out of a slew of books. 367 A.D. is an important year for your religion. That's when the bible was actually created from the numerous writings of supposed apostles, saints, and other holy men. Considering the thousand plus errors and inconsistencies, I don't think god made the meeting.

The Qu'ran is obviously flawed just as any other religious text is. Heavily, even. I do respect the scientific thought far beyond it's time as a religious writing, or text of any kind. While the Torah and the New Testament seem to be shooting off scientific impossibilities left and right, the Qu'ran has a lot of shocking scientific proofs. Judging the divinity of all three Abrahamic faiths, I'd have to say the Qu'ran is superior in knowledge about things that should have, for the time considering, remained "unknown."

Your rejective attitude is something that your orthodox Jew counterparts feel about you. They are the chosen people, where as you worship a false deity. You see? It's a perpetual cycle that very few religious people tend to break in their lifetime. These three religions remind me of the bad news bears. They're on the same team and can't stop fighting with one another. Instead of making leaps and bounds as a united people, you'd rather continue these meaningless petty arguments about who is "right" and who is "wrong."

As religious people, you're playing your role perfectly.

As a "chosen" or "divine" people, you're failing miserably.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:19 PM
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Reply to AshleyD

I'd start with reading the article the original post links to. That seems to be the logical first step as that is what the thread is about.

I have red the article that’s why I answered to posts from other pages.

You can see my response here to the ‘Moon-God’ thing. Please also read the links on this post which has detailed evidence to the bogus ‘Moon-god’ accusation.

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 


Well said If we could get rid of all religion I think the world would benefit greatly.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
You seem to be holding the Qu'ran to different standards than you do your own faith.


Not remotely. I love discussing textual criticism of the Bible but that is not what this thread is about.


Because it is not your belief, and it's obvious you hold a lot of resentment, if not are plain fearful of this other religion to even begin to understand it.


Fear? Resentment? Alright, then you have resentment and fear of the Christian Bible because you have asked questions about it. Is that a remotely reasonable accusation to make against you because you have asked questions? No! This is a discussion about a religious text. You can and have made accusations against the Bible and apocryphal texts but if I ask a question about the Koran it is claimed this was done out of fear and resentment. Please.


You're all talking as if the Qu'ran should be held accountable for every single word the authors have written


Newsflash. People do this to the Bible everyday. It's as if they want every sentence "proved" to them. Again, this thread is not remotely about the Christian Bible. It is about the Koran.


while you praise your book with similar inconsistencies, even praising prophets that were murderers themselves. Moses, anybody?


This might help. For argument's sake, let's assume I'm an atheist and have no vested interest in the Bible. Great. Now let's stop discussing another religion and text (when, again, there are hundreds of threads already on the subject) and stick to the one thread that examines the Koran.


There were many books that didn't make it for numerous reasons. Too old, too new, didn't make the cut off in time, wasn't discovered yet, deemed heretical, etc..The Gospel of Hebrews, Eusebius, Thomas, not even the Letter of Clement made it. Your bible was nitpicked out of a slew of books. 367 A.D. is an important year for your religion. That's when the bible was actually created from the numerous writings of supposed apostles, saints, and other holy men. Considering the thousand plus errors and inconsistencies, I don't think god made the meeting.


This is totally irrelevant. Your information is scarily inaccurate as well as your knowledge about the canonization process but I'm not even going to bother refuting it at the moment because this thread is about the textual criticism of the Koran. You are off topic. What is so difficult to understand about this?



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by defcon365
I would say the Koran is simply a demonic created religon, and what a suprise, they war against Christians and Jews...


This thread makes me laugh, especially to anyone who believes it. Besides that, you shouldn't speak on Islam without knowing anything about it. Kur'an is not a religion, nor' is it demonic. For you and anyone to say such ignorant things would be like mocking God himself. Any case, say what you want just wait until it's your judgement day and you will feel God's wrath.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:38 PM
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[Mod Edit: Post deleted. Please see Terms and Conditions of Membership sections 1b, 1f and 2. If you no longer wish to participate in a thread please feel free to move on to another or altogether. Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 20/1/08 by JAK]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


It's pretty alarming how defensive you're becoming over this whole thing. Calm down. I'm drawing comparisons between what is nothing more than a relevant source; it's historical and religious counterpart. Of which you seem to draw comparisons yourself.




Jesus warned us that an Antichrist would arise and specifically target Jews and Christians. I don't think Islam is the Antichrist but it would not surprise me to see the Antichrist arise from Islam. Some passages in the Hadith (and I will admit not all Muslims accept the Hadith but they don't necessarily condemn it either) show a figure coming onto the world to usher in worldwide domination and a one world religion (things the Antichrist is supposed to do) and is supposed to specifically target, you guessed it, Jews and Christians who do not convert.


If you're going to use your own personal religious text as the only supporting evidence that another religion is fake, it's only fair that we first examine the credibility of the source you're using to discredit the religion.





We refused because we saw him for what he was- a false prophet who got his Satanic revelations through epileptic-like fits.


This doesn't sound like "asking questions" about Islam. More or less assuming you know exactly what had taken place with Mohammad and using a few examples to efficiently persecute another religion. All understanding is thrown out with the window when you strike a claim such as this. If you don't see that, it's fine. Live your life the way you want to. I nor anybody else should have a bearing on your life, though the direction your heading could only perpetuate the hatred between these various religions.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


Eh, I don't think the answer is necessarily throwing religion out the window, but those who believe in it need to reevaluate their thought process. This isn't a NFL game. We shouldn't be rallying against one another in this day and age. The blind, deaf, and dumb think it's imperative that to become a better man or woman of faith, they must take subtle (or otherwise) arms against their brothers and sisters of different faiths. When, in every religious text I've ever read, this is the opposite of what is true. Given the inconsistency in all divinely inspired writings, I'd say you could pretty much derive your own meaning, though.



[Mod Edit: Please reacquaint yourself with the T&C's. Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 20/1/08 by JAK]

[edit on 20-1-2008 by DeadFlagBlues]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:06 PM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
It's pretty alarming how defensive you're becoming over this whole thing. Calm down.


I know it is difficult to discern people's moods and state of mind through typed words but I assure you, I am not remotely upset, defensive, or ruffled. Not one single bit. But it is frustrating to want to debate something and then basically be accused of being close minded when you ask about a subject that is apparently taboo. Or because you have a concern about another religion's text it must be because you are threatened or biased. Textual criticism of the Bible is discussed on numerous threads on ATS. In this thread, now we are discussing the textual criticism of the Koran. It it not close minded, intolerant, or a religious war. It's an examination of the facts.




If you're going to use your own personal religious text as the only supporting evidence that another religion is fake, it's only fair that we first examine the credibility of the source you're using to discredit the religion.


Not so. There are numerous secular sources that refute many core tenets of Islam and the history it proposes. But I have refrained from bringing these up because I'm not interested in bashing Islam, their history, or doctrine. I'm curious to know if the Koran was penned and formed the way it has indisputably been claimed for centuries.


I nor anybody else should have a bearing on your life, though the direction your heading could only perpetuate the hatred between these various religions.


There are many references in the Hadith and Koran (and I will admit they are often taken out of context but the fact remains) they refer to slaughtering Christians and Jews who do not convert. This is okay but when a Christian asks a question about the validity of the text (not really even the actual religion), we are "perpetuating hatred." Do you not see the bias?

I'm sick to death of seeing Christian and Jew bashing but when a Christian or Jew asks a question or proposes a theory about Islam, it is supposedly based on intolerance, ignorance, feeling threatened, etc.

Anyways, this discussion is going absolutely nowhere.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Now to get this back on topic:

There have been two points of view in this thread. One states the Koran was penned by Mohammad's followers based on his revelation after his life time and this is typically agreed upon by those outside the Islamic religion and by a minority inside the religion.

Is there evidence to support it being penned by scribes while Mohammad spoke? I believe that is what some Muslims are claiming. That the Koran was basically transcribed by literate followers of Mohammad while he spoke and that the texts were pieced together and formed.

On the other hand, others say (possibly the majority- I do not know) that it was pieced together and penned after he died.

What is the evidence defending either position? For those who believe his apostles penned the Koran under his guidance, what evidence brings you to this conclusion? And where did the point of view originate that claims it happened after his life time?

And what is the original thread asking in regards to concealed manuscripts or texts? What is the secret supposed to be?



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:21 PM
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Reply to AshleyD

I'm curious to know if the Koran was penned and formed the way it has indisputably been claimed for centuries.

Yes I want to see that curiosity come out with some evidence.

I think its kinda good in a way that people dispute about my religion (Islam) as when I do research to try and answer their questions, it helps to upgrade in my own Islamic knowledge and understanding of my own religion.

The only problem is when One starts making a Mockery out of it.


There are many references in the Hadith and Koran (and I will admit they are often taken out of context but the fact remains) they refer to slaughtering Christians and Jews who do not convert.

You might find this link useful which answers your questions to the violent quotes in Quran.

www.islamic-shield.com...

You might also find this link useful to other questions you might have in your mind about Islam.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:27 PM
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Reply to AshleyD

What is the evidence defending either position? For those who believe his apostles penned the Koran under his guidance, what evidence brings you to this conclusion? And where did the point of view originate that claims it happened after his life time?

Your these questions has been answered here:

www.islamic-shield.com...

Make sure you read all the topics in this site which may answer your other questions.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 




But it is frustrating to want to debate something and then basically be accused of being close minded when you ask about a subject that is apparently taboo. Or because you have a concern about another religion's text it must be because you are threatened or biased. Textual criticism of the Bible is discussed on numerous threads on ATS. In this thread, now we are discussing the textual criticism of the Koran. It it not close minded, intolerant, or a religious war. It's an examination of the facts.


You've labeled Islam as a demonic religion. Mohammad's episodes were "Satanic." And the religion is a "Pagan" one. This isn't being concerned or curious, or tolerant. This is called being ignorant, bias, and disrespectful. This isn't a contest, and because your religion is being bashed in other threads, doesn't allot anybody the right to make bias criticisms of anybody else's religion. Your "disproving" the validity of one religious text through another. Blinding logic. Discrediting one source with a widely discredited source. This seems to be very much so calling the pot calling the kettle black, as previously stated by somebody else.





Not so. There are numerous secular sources that refute many core tenets of Islam and the history it proposes. But I have refrained from bringing these up because I'm not interested in bashing Islam, their history, or doctrine. I'm curious to know if the Koran was penned and formed the way it has indisputably been claimed for centuries.



Once again. There are just as many secular sources who have showed all religions to have the factual consistency of Swiss cheese. You can't nitpick another religion with secular sources, because those same sources have proven your faith, which seems to be your primary evidence of Islam being false, as also being somewhat "false" or factually amiss.



There are many references in the Hadith and Koran (and I will admit they are often taken out of context but the fact remains) they refer to slaughtering Christians and Jews who do not convert. This is okay but when a Christian asks a question about the validity of the text (not really even the actual religion), we are "perpetuating hatred." Do you not see the bias?


Don't dilute the weight in which your assertions of Islam being a Satanic religion, and Mohammad, not a prophet of god, but of some demon. We wouldn't be in this little quibble if your questions were asked out of curiosity, not in the rhetorical context in which you have been asking and responding.



I'm sick to death of seeing Christian and Jew bashing but when a Christian or Jew asks a question or proposes a theory about Islam, it is supposedly based on intolerance, ignorance, feeling threatened, etc.


Let's get real. It's because all your intentions are driven by ignorance, fear, and intolerance. You have no desire to truly understand the faith. Your intentions are fairly transparent to most of us. Your "team" mentality has put you off course. Your "team" has been beaten up, so you're going to exact your revenge! That's the mentality I'm talking about that "perpetuates hatred," not fair and balanced questions in the quest for knowledge and understanding.


Anyways, this discussion is going absolutely nowhere.


You're absolutely right. And there's a reason for that. You'll find that reason in the mirror. As others who don't understand what being truly "holy" or "divine" means.


Like watching a bunch of toddlers, really...



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 


Thank you! Major Kudos to you, Kangja, for answering the questions. I'm reading the links now. But the link showed me what is believed by some- that the texts were written by scribes chosen by Mohammad during his lifetime. Question: Do you know what the evidence is to support this view? Is it in the Koran, Hadith, or an external source? That is what I'm trying to figure out. I know what is believed but where did it come from? The article link simply tells me one side I already put forth but doesn't state where this account is documented. Thanks in advance.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 03:32 PM
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Reply to AshleyD

Question: Do you know what the evidence is to support this view? Is it in the Koran, Hadith, or an external source? That is what I'm trying to figure out.

I still don’t get the question you are tryna ask?

Do you want evidence to how the below was done?

* The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) the seven modes of recitation.

* Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.

* The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

* Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.

* Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 03:44 PM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
I still don’t get the question you are tryna ask?


I'm asking for sources that state this is how the Koran was penned. You're telling me how many believe it to be penned but not where the information is documented.

For example. Someone asks why I believe Socrates was poisoned. I cannot just say "We believe Socrates was poisoned." I would point them to the historical accounts that record his death.

Likewise, I know the view point that some believe the Koran was penned by scribes in Mohammad's lifetime but where is this stated and how did you come to this conclusion. Is it in scriptural passages in the Koran? In the Hadith? External secular sources? That is what I'm asking.



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
You've labeled Islam as a demonic religion. Mohammad's episodes were "Satanic." And the religion is a "Pagan" one. This isn't being concerned or curious, or tolerant. This is called being ignorant, bias, and disrespectful.


I personally do not see it that way. You can, of course, but I do not. I emphatically stated it was my opinion (and used bold font for that specific word), that I had issues with Islam (an -ism) but not Muslims (-ists), and stated I know my view is going to come off as politically incorrect but that it is what I beleive.

That was more respectful than what I have seen from countless other people on and off of ATS. Most people just say it is a certain way and are very condescending while I tried to make it as clear as possible that is the way I honestly feel, right for wrong, and explained my reasons. There is nothing wrong with having a differing opinion especially when it is put as diplomatically as possible. My belief might be unpopular but it is still my belief that I have every right to have.

If someone was to say Jesus was a false prophet or Satanically inspired (which they do often) but stated it nicely how could I complain? When people claim Jesus is from pagan origins (and they often do), if they put it civilly and intellectually, that is their right. It is what they believe, right or wrong. I can debate their arguments with equal civility and point out why they are in error but not immediately accuse them of being "threatened" or "intolerant" as you have done.

You never really debated the reasons inasmuch as you pointed out why they are intolerant. Take your crusade against those who claim the exact same things things against Christianity (and are hardly ever as civil). But you won't because you are biased. People can have personal opinions about Christianity but we are not allowed to have them for other religions.

I afforded more civility and disclaimers in my statements than I have ever seen anywhere else. You're simply speaking from bias. Period. I am entitled to my opinion here as long as I abide by the T&C and conduct of civility. Which I did.

There have been innumerable posts claiming Yahweh is a demon, Jesus was a false prophet, Christianity is evil, Christian doctrine is pagan, etc. I guarantee you the beliefs are hardly ever put forth reasonably and civilly. This thread asserts something along the same lines only about Islam and that belief is attacked. We are entitled to put forth the same ideas just like everyone else as long as we are civil.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Jan, 20 2008 @ 04:13 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


It's not how you say it but what you're saying. I don't care how passive aggressive you are in your attempts, I will always call a spade a spade. Our conversation is over.





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