Reply to porky1981

We were talking about the history of the Kuran, it had nothing to do with terrorism... thank you.

Than your Muslim colleague didn’t have much knowledge about the history of Quran that’s why he probably Shrugged it off.

But you can ask me about the history of Quran and I will try my best to answer it with the best of my knowledge.

Originally posted by kangjia57
Ok my humble noble friend can you tell me how is Quran is fake (with evidence)?

SO what’s the new ‘fake’ thing in Quran?

I'd start with reading the article the original post links to. That seems to be the logical first step as that is what the thread is about.

We can go off on tangents about Allah being a moon God, speculate Mohammad was possessed, and examine history that states Mohammad preached with force. But technically that is neither here nor there. So, start with the article offered in the original post. Debunk, discuss, or validate. I don't care which point of view you take.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
You seem to be holding the Qu'ran to different standards than you do your own faith.

Not remotely. I love discussing textual criticism of the Bible but that is not what this thread is about.

Because it is not your belief, and it's obvious you hold a lot of resentment, if not are plain fearful of this other religion to even begin to understand it.

Fear? Resentment? Alright, then you have resentment and fear of the Christian Bible because you have asked questions about it. Is that a remotely reasonable accusation to make against you because you have asked questions? No! This is a discussion about a religious text. You can and have made accusations against the Bible and apocryphal texts but if I ask a question about the Koran it is claimed this was done out of fear and resentment. Please.

You're all talking as if the Qu'ran should be held accountable for every single word the authors have written

Newsflash. People do this to the Bible everyday. It's as if they want every sentence "proved" to them. Again, this thread is not remotely about the Christian Bible. It is about the Koran.

while you praise your book with similar inconsistencies, even praising prophets that were murderers themselves. Moses, anybody?

This might help. For argument's sake, let's assume I'm an atheist and have no vested interest in the Bible. Great. Now let's stop discussing another religion and text (when, again, there are hundreds of threads already on the subject) and stick to the one thread that examines the Koran.

There were many books that didn't make it for numerous reasons. Too old, too new, didn't make the cut off in time, wasn't discovered yet, deemed heretical, etc..The Gospel of Hebrews, Eusebius, Thomas, not even the Letter of Clement made it. Your bible was nitpicked out of a slew of books. 367 A.D. is an important year for your religion. That's when the bible was actually created from the numerous writings of supposed apostles, saints, and other holy men. Considering the thousand plus errors and inconsistencies, I don't think god made the meeting.

This is totally irrelevant. Your information is scarily inaccurate as well as your knowledge about the canonization process but I'm not even going to bother refuting it at the moment because this thread is about the textual criticism of the Koran. You are off topic. What is so difficult to understand about this?

Originally posted by defcon365
I would say the Koran is simply a demonic created religon, and what a suprise, they war against Christians and Jews...

This thread makes me laugh, especially to anyone who believes it. Besides that, you shouldn't speak on Islam without knowing anything about it. Kur'an is not a religion, nor' is it demonic. For you and anyone to say such ignorant things would be like mocking God himself. Any case, say what you want just wait until it's your judgement day and you will feel God's wrath.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
It's pretty alarming how defensive you're becoming over this whole thing. Calm down.

I know it is difficult to discern people's moods and state of mind through typed words but I assure you, I am not remotely upset, defensive, or ruffled. Not one single bit. But it is frustrating to want to debate something and then basically be accused of being close minded when you ask about a subject that is apparently taboo. Or because you have a concern about another religion's text it must be because you are threatened or biased. Textual criticism of the Bible is discussed on numerous threads on ATS. In this thread, now we are discussing the textual criticism of the Koran. It it not close minded, intolerant, or a religious war. It's an examination of the facts.

If you're going to use your own personal religious text as the only supporting evidence that another religion is fake, it's only fair that we first examine the credibility of the source you're using to discredit the religion.

Not so. There are numerous secular sources that refute many core tenets of Islam and the history it proposes. But I have refrained from bringing these up because I'm not interested in bashing Islam, their history, or doctrine. I'm curious to know if the Koran was penned and formed the way it has indisputably been claimed for centuries.

I nor anybody else should have a bearing on your life, though the direction your heading could only perpetuate the hatred between these various religions.

There are many references in the Hadith and Koran (and I will admit they are often taken out of context but the fact remains) they refer to slaughtering Christians and Jews who do not convert. This is okay but when a Christian asks a question about the validity of the text (not really even the actual religion), we are "perpetuating hatred." Do you not see the bias?

I'm sick to death of seeing Christian and Jew bashing but when a Christian or Jew asks a question or proposes a theory about Islam, it is supposedly based on intolerance, ignorance, feeling threatened, etc.

Anyways, this discussion is going absolutely nowhere.

Now to get this back on topic:

There have been two points of view in this thread. One states the Koran was penned by Mohammad's followers based on his revelation after his life time and this is typically agreed upon by those outside the Islamic religion and by a minority inside the religion.

Is there evidence to support it being penned by scribes while Mohammad spoke? I believe that is what some Muslims are claiming. That the Koran was basically transcribed by literate followers of Mohammad while he spoke and that the texts were pieced together and formed.

On the other hand, others say (possibly the majority- I do not know) that it was pieced together and penned after he died.

What is the evidence defending either position? For those who believe his apostles penned the Koran under his guidance, what evidence brings you to this conclusion? And where did the point of view originate that claims it happened after his life time?

And what is the original thread asking in regards to concealed manuscripts or texts? What is the secret supposed to be?

Reply to AshleyD

Question: Do you know what the evidence is to support this view? Is it in the Koran, Hadith, or an external source? That is what I'm trying to figure out.

I still don’t get the question you are tryna ask?

Do you want evidence to how the below was done?

* The Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) used to recite the Qur'an before angel Jibreel (Gabriel) once every Ramadan, but he recited it twice (in the same order we have today) in the last Ramadan before his death. Jibreel also taught the Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him) the seven modes of recitation.

* Each verse received was recited by the Prophet, and its location relative to other verses and surahs was identified by him.

* The verses were written by scribes, selected by the Prophet, on any suitable object - the leaves of trees, pieces of wood, parchment or leather, flat stones, and shoulder blades. Scribes included Ali Ibn Abi Talib, Mu'awiyah Ibn Abi Sufyan, Ubey Ibn Ka'ab, Zayed Ibn Thabit.

* Some of the companions wrote the Qur'an for their own use.

* Several hundred companions memorized the Qur'an by heart.

Originally posted by kangjia57
I still don’t get the question you are tryna ask?

I'm asking for sources that state this is how the Koran was penned. You're telling me how many believe it to be penned but not where the information is documented.

For example. Someone asks why I believe Socrates was poisoned. I cannot just say "We believe Socrates was poisoned." I would point them to the historical accounts that record his death.

Likewise, I know the view point that some believe the Koran was penned by scribes in Mohammad's lifetime but where is this stated and how did you come to this conclusion. Is it in scriptural passages in the Koran? In the Hadith? External secular sources? That is what I'm asking.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
You've labeled Islam as a demonic religion. Mohammad's episodes were "Satanic." And the religion is a "Pagan" one. This isn't being concerned or curious, or tolerant. This is called being ignorant, bias, and disrespectful.

I personally do not see it that way. You can, of course, but I do not. I emphatically stated it was my opinion (and used bold font for that specific word), that I had issues with Islam (an -ism) but not Muslims (-ists), and stated I know my view is going to come off as politically incorrect but that it is what I beleive.

That was more respectful than what I have seen from countless other people on and off of ATS. Most people just say it is a certain way and are very condescending while I tried to make it as clear as possible that is the way I honestly feel, right for wrong, and explained my reasons. There is nothing wrong with having a differing opinion especially when it is put as diplomatically as possible. My belief might be unpopular but it is still my belief that I have every right to have.

If someone was to say Jesus was a false prophet or Satanically inspired (which they do often) but stated it nicely how could I complain? When people claim Jesus is from pagan origins (and they often do), if they put it civilly and intellectually, that is their right. It is what they believe, right or wrong. I can debate their arguments with equal civility and point out why they are in error but not immediately accuse them of being "threatened" or "intolerant" as you have done.

You never really debated the reasons inasmuch as you pointed out why they are intolerant. Take your crusade against those who claim the exact same things things against Christianity (and are hardly ever as civil). But you won't because you are biased. People can have personal opinions about Christianity but we are not allowed to have them for other religions.

I afforded more civility and disclaimers in my statements than I have ever seen anywhere else. You're simply speaking from bias. Period. I am entitled to my opinion here as long as I abide by the T&C and conduct of civility. Which I did.

There have been innumerable posts claiming Yahweh is a demon, Jesus was a false prophet, Christianity is evil, Christian doctrine is pagan, etc. I guarantee you the beliefs are hardly ever put forth reasonably and civilly. This thread asserts something along the same lines only about Islam and that belief is attacked. We are entitled to put forth the same ideas just like everyone else as long as we are civil.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]