Koran a FAKE

Wow just wow
I will say this, This is ATS
please try and keep is peaceful.

Now that I said that from what I believe all religions are wrong.

All of them.
why. they are all controlled buy higher people.
it's not the local rev, priest, or what ever
religion is in you
no where else.

You do not need a building to go to everyday, or every sunday.

No need for the mass meetings when its supposed to hear and see everything.

If you god requires you to pray 5 times a day why does it bother the other person?

Does it matter who's god is right ? Are they not all trying to speak the same thing?

thats what starts wars this is fake thats fake thats wrong this is wrong
when all of it is wrong

I makes me sick when I see people putting down other religions when they can not look into a mirror.

reply to post by EvilBat


We were not being nonpeaceful nor were we talking about religion. We were talking about the falsehood of the text, not the religion based around the text.

Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues
Given that the only living record of the existence of the anointed one is in the New Testament seems to be the only substantiated evidence your guy has proving that he even existed.

This is a common misconception (dare I say rumor?) but there is much evidence from pagan, secular, and Jewish sources not to mention Christian sources outside the Bible. Much. Most only offer a few lines and paragraphs. Others wrote entire manuscripts. Click here to see some of the sources. It's not a complete compilation but thorough enough.

To have bumbling idiots fighting over what is "truth." Fighting unsubstantiated claims with paralleled claims of their own doesn't make much sense to me.

Bumbling idiots? There are some extreme intellectuals in this field who know their stuff. How condescending.

Comparing religious values from even interfaith religions seems quite pointless to me... that's why true peace and understanding will never come to us, and I hope you know that.

That really isn't even the point of this thread. It's to discuss the history of the Koran. This is what humors me. Someone makes a post questioning Christianity and people jump right on in to attack it. You make another post about a different religion and we start hearing all the "can't we all just get along" rhetoric.

reply to post by AshleyD

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of
the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ, and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him. For he
appeared to them alive again the third day. As the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribes of Christians so named from him are not extinct at this day."

That's great news, considering he was born a few years after Christ's death. The source gives a handful of other sketchy sources that don't necessarily offer any proof whatsoever of Christ's true existence. Those of men who don't even have a true year of birth and there's a few with some "approximate" birth dates. For a man who was so controversial, it sure seems like there was quite the blackout, especially from the record keeping traditions of the almighty Romans.

Just telling it from what I can see, it's pretty obvious that the site was made to compound some truth about Jesus' true existence. Too bad it has a bias slant on it, or I'd be all for it.

This isn't an issue of anyone ganging up on Christianity. This is level headed people breaking up a full on assault on the Islamic religion. If you want those of us who don't take sides to back away while you have your way with Islam, it's not going to happen. You claim to be so doggedly persecuted by Muslims and Islam in itself, but here you are hammering out quaint little opinions about something the grip of you know nothing about. Acting in the same fashion you claim that you and yours are treated with. Now that a barrier is set between this cute little Christian gangbang on Islam, I think it would be quite inappropriate to pull the victim card. Wouldn't you agree?

reply to post by AshleyD


Didnt the Pope say a while back that all those born again christian groups are nothing but cults and are not the real church.


Just goes to show that you arent any better then the Pope

[edit on 20-1-2008 by Fett Pinkus]

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


I have to certainly agree! There's obviously some bias when a person with a Christianity-inspired avatar begins to weave some words about other religions. I think a few people took the OP out of context somewhat (the source is a bit disjointed too) and as a chance to mix in their own doctrine.

Calling the Koran fake and pagan by a Christian is certainly calling the pot black.

And I am certainly being as diplomatic as possible.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by mattguy404]

reply to post by mattguy404


I was referring to the source given in regards to the legitimacy of Christ's existence, but I do agree with what you've said. People are ridiculous. Always looking for something to fight instead of embrace. These trivial little issues are fairly transparent to me, I don't see where the argument between the religions come in, other than the ignorance and stupidity of the men "seeking" divinity with all the wrong motives.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


This is so typical. There are more historical references to Jesus than many figures in antiquity, more eyewitnesses wrote about Jesus than Socrates, and the historical references to Jesus were written closer to His life than Alexander the Great (where none of the accounts were written by eye witnesses and were penned up to five centuries after his life time). Who questions their existence? No one. It's nothing but pick and choose. It's lazy and a denial for comfort's sake. No sound logical person would say the evidence regarding Jesus' historicity is "questionable" and then accept other figures without question with very questionable evidence. That is what we call a bias.

This isn't an issue of anyone ganging up on Christianity. This is level headed people breaking up a full on assault on the Islamic religion... Now that a barrier is set between this cute little Christian gangbang on Islam, I think it would be quite inappropriate to pull the victim card. Wouldn't you agree?

A full assault? Gang bang? The thread mentioned the possibility the authorship of the Koran might not be as simple as believed and this is a full scale attack? Meanwhile, Christians all over this board are being called "brainwashed" "bumbling idiots" "morons" etc. and this is acceptable? Someone dares bring up a question about the Koran and this is a "full assault" while the Christian Bible is ripped to shreds daily with all sorts of false accusations and this is okay? Spare me.

Now, let's get this thread back on topic one last time. What is this thread supposed to be about? The Koran. Maybe two or three comments on this entire thread were actually about the Koran.

I don't buy the "we're so open minded and level headed we are coming into this thread defend Islam."

Originally posted by Fett Pinkus
reply to post by AshleyD

 

Didnt the Pope say a while back that all those born again christian groups are nothing but cults and are not the real church.


Just goes to show that you arent any better then the Pope

[edit on 20-1-2008 by Fett Pinkus]

You explain to me what this has to do with the original post and Koran (it doesn't) and I will answer your question. Catholicism states in order to obtain salvation, you have to be a part of their church and their definition of the church. It is not remotely Biblical. Biblical is the word that is emphasized because this thread is not about the Bible but the Koran.

reply to post by AshleyD


Don't buy anything, because I'm not selling you anything. I'm being straight with you and the other posters. It's easy to see you're looking to be attacked, as my comments were generalized for "all" men from all walks of life, and in no way were specific to any one religion. Though, I guess we'll keep it in the great tradition of martyrdom we have going in all Abrahamic faiths.

reply to post by DeadFlagBlues


Can you do me a favor? Can you take your crusade to stop all religious intolerance and defamation to some of these threads? Some "even mindedness" is needed to stop the "gang bang." But of course, you can step into just about any thread concerning any religion. Christianity is almost always discussed off topic and ridiculed:

Stupid Quotes from Christians
Jehovah is an Evil God
Biblical Abominations
Bible Talk
The Bible: Greatest Lie Ever Told
Yahweh is a Demon
Etc. Etc.
Etc.

I thank you for your efforts to stop the insensitivity in advance.

[edit on 1/20/2008 by AshleyD]

reply to post by AshleyD


You forgot one

Seems your getting a wee bit tense there Ashley so why not chill a bit?

Well, if anyone listened to coast to coast am tonight, this is a serious issue that could change a lot of things for Islam and cause many problems.

You know, a lot you on this post are arguing about stuff that is not even relevant to the thread. The original link to the article is kinda strange so if people were to read this article from the WSJ I think you will be better informed as to what this is actually about.



Wall Street Journal- The Lost Archive
online.wsj.com...

Propaganda:
This thread has many examples of what can be taken as 'propaganda':

1) For example, repeatedly using the same words again and again to hammer in a point. In the 3 pages of this thread:

The number of times that the word 'epilepsy/epileptic/seizures has been used in this thread: 6

The number of times the phrase 'moon god' has been used in this thread(not counting quotes, and people who were referencing it): 13

_______________________________________________________________


2) Another example: Using false and uncorroborated information, or mincing with words:

Originally posted by heliosprime
Let me expand, the Koran writting is real, the message is FAKE. The Koran denies that Jesus is the son of GOD. Allah was and is a moon god of egypt at the time of "the prophet". A false god............

I've never ever, ever, seen any reference to an 'Allah the moon god' in Egyptian mythology. Please clarify.

Originally posted by defcon365
This explains why the crescent moon is the symbol of Islam. It is placed on top of mosques and minarets and displayed on hats, flags, rugs, amulets and even jewelry. Every time you see the Muslim symbol of a crescent moon, you are seeing the ancient symbol of the moon god.

No, actually, the crescent moon symbol was taken by the turks from the Byzantian (Christian) flag. It has nothing to do with Islam.

Originally posted by AshleyD
When Mohammad began his religion, he at first tried to get Jews and Christians (and specifically the Jews and Christians) to convert to Islam and what he deemed to be the true revelation from God via peace.

There were very, very, few christians around Mecca at the time of the prophet (I can only think of 1), so I'm not too sure about how accurate your 'story' is.

Originally posted by AshleyD
After he failed to destroy us from the inside out through merger, he then declared a jihad against Christians and Jews and the slaughter ensued.

I'm sorry, but no interpretation of that sentence is correct in any way whatsoever. Muhammad never 'declared' a 'jihad' against 'Christians and Jews', and the 'slaughter' didn't 'ensue'.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Many will decry the source, but really, do you think the truth will come from muslim based sites?

And you think that a Christian-based site will know the truth (about Islam) better? You might have been correct, but a quick look at the link shows many errors in their 'facts'.

Originally posted by AshleyD
He supposedly had his "revelations" after going into epileptic-like fits. This is recorded history.

About epilepsy: The earliest mention of epilepsy is from an 8th century Byzantian monk, who never met Muhammad, never went anywhere that he had been, and probably knew nothing about him. The guy goes on to insult his wives as well. Modern scholars all agree that this claim is unfounded, and if you look logically at Muhammad's life, you'll see that there were no effects of epilepsy.

Originally posted by AshleyD
That would really suck to blow yourself up for a bowl of grapes. Of course, I'm not taking it literally and can understand the concept of the metaphor for abundance but still. The way the article described the interpretation made me crack a smile.

And it would not suck to blow yourself over '72 virgins' (something that is certainly not promised in the Quran)?

Originally posted by AshleyD
His followers penned down his revelations after his death since, as you stated and as already stated multiple time in this thread, Mohammad was illiterate.

Saying that Judaism and Christianity were corrupt distortions and that Islam is the right way would have required the rule of prophetic testing. Not from one man who received his knowledge through seizures then, having everyone see through the scam, utilizing his only remaining option which was converting through the sword.

Then deny the crucifixion occurring when it is very well documented through secular and external Christian sources not including the Bible? Please! I'm not buying this.

His followers didn't pen down his revelations after his death. They were penned down during his life. They were just collected together after his death.
Also: I cannot think of a single instance in Muhammad's life where he 'converted by the sword'. Please enlighten me.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Yes he did! He traveled the Middle East, evangelized his new religion orally, and converted by the sword. It's recorded history.

Putting aside the comment about converting by the sword, Muhammad didn't 'travel the middle east evangelizing his new religion', unless you take that in the most vague sense. He made one trip to Taif (where we was jeered and stoned out of the town), and then much later, he relocated to Madinah.

_______________________________________________________________


3) Putting an evil slant on fairly mundane, and good things:

Originally posted by defcon365
...giving alms to the poor, etc.. These were pagan rites practiced by the Arabs long before Muhammad was born.

Oh dear, dear. I'm afraid that this 'paganism' has pervaded all too many parts of our society. I suggest the incarceration of all people who give alms to the poor.

_______________________________________________________________


See, the problem here, as referenced by Incarnated:

Originally posted by Incarnated
We were not being nonpeaceful nor were we talking about religion. We were talking about the falsehood of the text, not the religion based around the text.

I'd be very happy if we were having a critical, objective discussion about the Quran, but so far, there has been very little of that, and a whole lot of 'epilepsy!', 'pagan moon-god', 'convert by the sword!' and 'satan inspired'. This is why I claim propaganda.

If one were to say 'I disagree with Islam because I believe it is wrong', while it would be difficult to have discussions, I could accept that. But when you try proving factually that Islam is wrong while use INCORRECT INFORMATION, that is just weird to me.

I applaud Incarnated for coming the closest to honesty in this thread:

Originally posted by Incarnated
From my personal experience, I try to follow along the story and the charcters in the story.

The Koran doesn't jive with the "real story".

Much of the Koran is FAKED!

No trying to prove it with incorrect 'facts', just 'this is what I believe, and so!'.

Originally posted by Incarnated
Every charactor, like "the archangel gabriel" has a uniform set of jobs. Every charactor does...

IN the FAKEest aspect of the Koran, the book has angles doing other angel's jobs and such things that just don't happen.

Honest question here: I'm really interested. In your analysis of the Bible, what is Gabriel's job? I'd have thought it would have been God's go-between for the humans.

[edit on 20-1-2008 by babloyi]

Okay you hicks, explain this.


The Qur’an’s factual contents and scientific information

Within the Qur’an are recorded facts about ancient times that were unknown to Muhammad’s contemporaries and even to historians in the first half of the 20th century. In scores of verses, we also find references to scientific wonders, some only recently discovered or confirmed, regarding the universe, biology, embryology, astronomy, physics, geography, meteorology, medicine, history, oceanography, etc. Below are some examples of modern scientific discoveries mentioned in the Qur’an:

– The Lost City of Iram (Qur’an 89:7)

The existence of the city of Iram was unknown to any historian in the world prior to the excavation in Syria (in 1973) at the site of the ancient city of Ebla where clay tablets found there confirmed that the people of Ebla used to do business with the people of Iram. Details of this can be found in the National Geographic magazine of December, 1978. So unknown was the city of Iram until recently that even some Muslim commentators, out of embarrassment or feeling apologetic for their religion, have commented on this mention of the city in the Qur’an as being perhaps figurative, saying that Iram was possibly a man and not a city! How did the author of the Qur’an know of the existence of the city of Iram (Q.89:7) when no one else knew it?

– Worker bees being female (Qur'an 16:68)

A subtle yet extraordinary precision in describing a natural phenomenon occurs in Q.16:68: “And your Lord inspired the bee, (saying), 'Take for yourself dwellings in hills, on trees and in what they (mankind) build.’” The imperative “take” above is the translation of the Arabic word “ittakhidhi”, which is a feminine form (for Arabic verbs, unlike English ones, differentiate between the sexes). In Arabic, the female form is used when all those it refers to are female, whereas the masculine is used when a group contains at least one male. Therefore the Qur’an is in fact saying: “Take for yourself, you female bees, dwellings…”

A swarm of bees comprises three types: a queen, the worker bees who collect honey and build the hive, and the male drones, whose sole purpose is to impregnate the queen and are then killed off by the worker bees. These worker bees are all females with underdeveloped sex organs. Thus the phrasing of this command in the Qur’an is in perfect correspondence with the fact that male bees do not participate in the construction of the hive or “dwelling”, which is the sole work of the females.

– Mountains as “stakes” and stabilizers

In his co-authored book entitled “Earth” [58], Professor Emeritus Frank Press says that mountains have underlying roots. These roots are deeply embedded in the ground; thus, mountains have a shape like a stake. [59].

This is just how the Qur’an has described mountains. The Creator is recorded in the Qur'an (78:6-7) as saying: “Have We not made the earth as a resting place (for you), and the mountains as (its) stakes?”

Modern earth sciences have shown that mountains have deep roots underground, and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word “stake”, since most of a properly set (tent) stake is hidden underground. How did the author of the Qur'an know such a precise description when the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century [60].

Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth. The author of the Qur’an states: “And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it could not shake with you…” (Q.16:15) Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers of the rapidly spinning earth. This knowledge about the role of mountains just began to be understood in the late 1960’s. [61]

It is a very well known fact and historically known that the Koran was written by a captured Rabbi, that is why the book destroy itself. There are many books out there on this topic try Avi Ben Mordichai or Avi Lipkin for two really respected authorities on Islam.

Allah was the Moon god of the region which had 360 gods, one for each day, Allah was the warrior god but muhommed was an eleptic camel herdermarried to a catholic nun about 35 years older than he was. When the nun died, Muhommed was run out of mecca/medina and was never allowed back.

Originally posted by AshleyD

A full assault? Gang bang? The thread mentioned the possibility the authorship of the Koran might not be as simple as believed and this is a full scale attack? Meanwhile, Christians all over this board are being called "brainwashed" "bumbling idiots" "morons" etc. and this is acceptable? Someone dares bring up a question about the Koran and this is a "full assault" while the Christian Bible is ripped to shreds daily with all sorts of false accusations and this is okay? Spare me.

I havent posted on thissite in ages Ashley for that very reason, ATS allows Christian and Jew haters to spew anything they want no matter how ridiculous or illegal, but don't dare try to set the record straight or you get banned, blocked, edited and whatever else they do to GODS CHILDREN.

Fear not though, for it was fortold that we would suffer many things for GOD, some will lose their heads and have for their faith. I feel like leaving you with a verse that helps me maintain.

"This is the patience of the Saints, those that obey the Laws of God and believe in Jesus Christ."

Im going to skip on the past 3 pages of this thread and just quote stuff directly from the article.

However, tell a devout Muslim that Mohammed may not have actually written every word of the Koran straight from the mouth of the angel Gabriel...and well, you're asking for trouble.

Uh... This is actually well known. The Qu'ran wasnt written down untill a fairly long time after Mohammed's death. However there is no evidence something has been forgotten or changed during this time as the Qu'ran does not contradict itself or anything like that.

But what if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century? What if there was proof that the holy book was actually redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?

There is enough of material that has neither come from the Bible or the Torah and even the material that is similair there are important differences and those ways of thinking didn't exist in pre-islamic times.

All Muslims believe that the Qu'ran is the direct word from God. How it should be interpeted has been a matter of debate since right when it came to be.

To refocus this thread back on Islam conside the following........

We see that Muhammad had many people murdered. By request, by command, by implication, Muhammad had many people murdered, many killed while they slept. There were no trials, no judgments, no dialog. If you insulted Muhammad, if you doubted his credibility and if you spoke out, you were murdered. Men and women, young and old, all were killed because of Muhammad's hatred toward those who spoke out against him.
Here is a summary of the 7 terrorist murders committed upon Muhammad's requests or efforts:

1) Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish man who was murdered because he was simply a Jew
2) Abu Afak, a 120-year-old man, murdered while he slept
3) Asma Marwan, mother of 5 children, murdered while she slept
4) A slave woman, mother of two children, murdered while she slept
5) A one-eyed shepherd, murdered while he slept
6) A very old woman, literally ripped in half by Muslims who captured her on a raid.
7) A slave girl, who was murdered because she poked fun at Muhammad.

I will add that there were many more people who suffered a similar fate. I choose not to list them here because of space limitations.

Make no mistake about it: Muhammad was a terrorist. Today's Muslim terrorists follow his actions. Like prophet, like followers; today's Muhammadan terrorists commit their acts based upon what Muhammad did.

Many Muslims are peace-loving people and are thoroughly disgusted about the acts of Islamic terrorism. Most Muslims do not know these historical facts about their own prophet. But Muslim terrorists are usually well-educated in Islam. They are pious people. Spiritual leaders. And they do what they do and how they do it following the example of their prophet.

answering-islam.org.uk...

The original 5 books of the Torah were gived directly from GOD to Moses.

The Koran is hear-say at best..........Gabriel to a so called "prophet"? More likely satan to one of his evil spawn..........