"But what if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century? What if there was proof that the holy book was actually redacted by later writers drawing on a variety of extant Christian and Jewish sources?"

Personally, I believe this is what exactly took place and that there was no divine revelations from Gabriel to Mohammad.

I also agree that this type of information will indeed infuriate the Muslim world and heads will go spinning or, falling, as has been the case in the past. People can say whatever they want about the Bible but dare not breathe a word against the Koran or Allah.



[edit on 19-1-2008 by jdposey]

While the Bible has been rigorously, often even brutally, picked apart by scholars of every kind, the West has carefully avoided doing the same with the Koran. In the United States, where Arab and Islamic Studies rely on funding from the Gulf States, an interest in Koranic criticism is the foolproof way to commit career suicide.

This was the most strking remark in my opinion. Very true and to the point. Perhaps they are wrong but I really don't see that much in the way of true scholarly criticism of the Koran. I think this article has a genuine valid point. If a majority of the funding for Koran research comes from Arab state funding, wouldn't that be like asking the foxes to guard the hen house? As in there's a real conflict of interest here.

As to the charge of the Koran being a fake, we know that Islam was founded after 400 A.D. which leaves plenty of time for all the Hebrew and Christian text to have been broadly distributed and well known. Does anyone know what the earliest versions of the Koran are dated at?

-of course the west doesn't rigorously test the koran, it's not culturally enticing to study it

-the koran isn't so much a "fake" but the story of its origin is instead fraudulent.. it's still a realy book


-there isn't anything to show that the pentateuch (first 5 books of the bible) was written by moses, that doesn't stop the jewish religion from believing in it. evidence shows that matthew, mark, luke, and john didn't actually write their gospels, that doesn't stop christianity...
so what's to stop islam from believing in their book?

Heliosprime, just a small point, but you may wish to change the passage you quoted, as it doesn't really accurately represent the point you wish to put across.

The article mentions that muslims believe Muhammad wrote down the Quran, which isn't really true. Muhammad was illiterate(could not read or write), so he just 'heard' the Quran. Others wrote it down.

As far as the Quran being 'fake' (whatever is meant by that term), one really can't tell at the moment, considering that no research has been published yet.

As for the whole '72 virgins' thing, the whole idea is based off a misconception. The Quran doesn't say 'virgins' at all. It mentions 'beautiful companions', or 'companions with beautiful eyes'. It doesn't even mention a sex. They are there for both males and females. It doesn't even mention only martyrs. They are there for all who enter heaven.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Talk about religeous conspiracy...................The Koran a FAKE?

The Koran is questionable but I do believe Mohammad experienced "something." The problem is, in my opinion, what makes it questionable is that he is documented to have experienced these revelations after having epileptic-like fits which led many to believe he was actually possessed.

Welch, a scholar of Islamic studies, states in the Encyclopedia of Islam that he believes the graphic descriptions of Muhammad's condition at these moments may be regarded as genuine, seeing as he was severely disturbed after these revelations. According to Welch, these seizures would have been seen as convincing evidence for the superhuman origin of Muhammad's inspirations by the people around him. Muhammad's enemies, however, accused him of being a man who was possessed, or of being a soothsayer or magician since his claimed experiences were similar to those made by those soothsayer figures well known in ancient Arabia. Additionally, Welch states that it remains uncertain whether these experiences occurred before or after Muhammad began to see himself as a prophet.

Originally posted by dbates
Does anyone know what the earliest versions of the Koran are dated at?

The Qur'an did not exist in book form at the time of Muhammad's death in 632. A complete form of book was written 19 years later.

After this initial compilation, copies were made, and as Islam expanded beyond the Arabian peninsula, the third Caliph, Uthman ibn Affan, in about 650 ordered a standardized version to be prepared...

[edit on 1/19/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by XcLuciFer
Hi Ash did you get a chance to look up the, Stellar Cult: Isis, the Solar Cult: Ra and Saturnian Cult El,
The worship of Isis, the worship of Ra and the worship of El Isis Ra El Israel!!!!!

Oh no. Not you again! (I kid, I kid). Yes, I did look it up. Like a month ago when you asked me the same question. Do you remember my Zod analogy to show you what a coincidence is and when I cited the names in their original languages to show their dissimilarity? Apparently not. Again, one of my guy friends believes the same thing as you and has shown me all of this before. I proved him wrong, too. But what does this have to do with this thread and topic? The world will never know.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by XcLuciFer
Hi Ash did you get a chance to look up the, Stellar Cult: Isis, the Solar Cult: Ra and Saturnian Cult El,
The worship of Isis, the worship of Ra and the worship of El Isis Ra El Israel!!!!!

Oh no. Not you again! (I kid, I kid). Yes, I did look it up. Like a month ago when you asked me the same question. Do you remember my Zod analogy to show you what a coincidence is and when I cited the names in their original languages to show their dissimilarity? Apparently not. Again, one of my guy friends believes the same thing as you and has shown me all of this before. I proved him wrong, too. But what does this have to do with this thread and topic? The world will never know.

LOL ok I'm not going to bother you with my crazyness anymore Ash you are hopless LOL!!! Oh and I never looked at super 2 that why I meant to tell you I think your analogy was brilliant, I know you think its silly but hopefully one day you will get it....Carry ON!!!

Yo the qur'an is real it isnt a fake..i dont care what you herd...stop with the nonsense

Ok, I'm sorry but I find this hysterical. From the original article:

Specifically, the Koran says martyrs going to heaven will get "hur," and the word was taken by early commentators to mean "virgins," hence those 72 concubines. But in Aramaic, hur actually meant "white" and was commonly used to specifically mean "white grapes."

The philologist "Christoph Luxenburg" ...notes that grapes would actually make more sense, because the text compares them to crystal and pearls, and because contemporary accounts have paradise abounding with fruit, especially white grapes.

That would really suck to blow yourself up for a bowl of grapes. Of course, I'm not taking it literally and can understand the concept of the metaphor for abundance but still. The way the article described the interpretation made me crack a smile.

But I do also have to laugh at this:

But what if scholars can prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Koran was not dictated by the Archangel Gabriel to the Prophet Mohammad during the 7th century?

It's just not going to happen. There is no way to prove it happened, nevertheless disprove it happened. If this is really scrutinized, it will probably be an explanation similar to what Christians believe: Mohammad's (who is believed to be illiterate anyways) followers recorded his teachings like the apostles and family of Jesus recorded His teachings. This is what they believe anyways so trying to prove or disprove this will be futile. If it does end up being proven to be a patchwork quilt of texts, they will say they are still Gabriel's message from Allah to Mohammad. The whole ordeal is pointless.

Originally posted by TheSonOfMan
Yo the qur'an is real it isnt a fake..i dont care what you herd...stop with the nonsense

Let me expand, the Koran writting is real, the message is FAKE. The Koran denies that Jesus is the son of GOD. Allah was and is a moon god of egypt at the time of "the prophet". A false god............

The article does make intersting points about how the koran has gotten a complete pass..........as a false religion from a false god.

The entire purpose of Islam is to deny Christ and sway a great multitude into the lake of fire.

Originally posted by TheSonOfMan
Yo the qur'an is real it isnt a fake..i dont care what you herd...stop with the nonsense

Hmmm, a one line post and no moderator warning.
Seems ATS is afraid of pissing off the muslims as well.

Originally posted by heliosprime

Let me expand, the Koran writting is real, the message is FAKE. The Koran denies that Jesus is the son of GOD. Allah was and is a moon god of egypt at the time of "the prophet". A false god............

The article does make intersting points about how the koran has gotten a complete pass..........as a false religion from a false god.

The entire purpose of Islam is to deny Christ and sway a great multitude into the lake of fire.

I personally believe that you're both wrong.
Two stories, twisted and manipulated over thousands of years (by humans) has most likely warped the original message.

Seeing also as how you have a sovereign nation-state guarding (hiding) documents and artifacts of the church (Vatican City) instead of spreading the message and/or purpose of these relics makes me want to believe that Islam may be the less corrupt of the two.

If Christianity is right then why all the secrets? And why haven't you asked yourself "why must they keep knowledge about the word of god from me?"
Isn't Christ and his church supposed to be in all of us and belong to everyone?

And please, don't give us the "god wants it that way" reply.
That cure-all argument is stale.

Originally posted by heliosprime

The article does make intersting points about how the koran has gotten a complete pass..........as a false religion from a false god.

The entire purpose of Islam is to deny Christ and sway a great multitude into the lake of fire.

Heliosprime, I really think you need to do some serious research about Islam. Moslems honor Jesus as a great prophet.
And who the hell are you to judge anyone's religion FALSE?

Another article written with no other purpose but an ulterior one. Divide and conquer. Another subtle segregation of similar peoples, while we're sitting here arguing over the semantics.


People are ridiculous.