Jesus was a master of Kabbalah

Originally posted by chromatico
reply to post by PuRe EnErGy

 

Well, that's silly because we know the Old Testament has always been the basis for Judaism and the New the basis for Christianity.

I know it's silly.

So what do those collection of writings, as a basis for those (Judaism/Christianity) have to do with people looking back at our stories and creations to form their own belief systems? especially since most of the stories and creations have been created by people who have read the bible or been to church.

I guess my point is we look too much for meaning ... the WHY's instead of the HOW's ...

[edit on 3/17/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

To clarify - Jewish tradition isn't uniform on this belief, and you're absolutely right, BW, some sources say that myriads of angels were created before the first day of creation.

Most Jewish sources also say that something else was created before the first day of creation (by 2000 years, in fact) which is the Torah.

Ok thanks for clarifying that. That's why I reacted when the very first thing I read on that Kabbalah site said the Angels were created during the 6 days. Because if it's Jewish it shouldn't contradict Job and Genesis. I believe the creation is not the same as the 6 days. If you can find the book Genesis Unbound by Dr Salhimmer it is excellent.

And that other site I linked to completely by accident while researching Mormons for that thread. It does look pretty hokey huh?

I 1000% agree! YES, YES, YES AGAIN! So glad to see I'm not the only one who realizes that. He was of the highest level of initiated learning. The knowledge of the Quabala was taught to Moses by the High priests of ancient Eygpt. He would have been privy to the highest level of initiation, or learning, because he was Pharoh's son! Jesus was taught these lessons, just like solomon before him and now into today somewhere on the planet I'm sure the knowledge has been passed in faith! ( not religious faith, but more trust in respected rights of initiation!

Good call!

reply to post by Bigwhammy


happen to be watching something on history channel right now about Noah and his ark. They were saying that the babaloyans said Noah's rain only lasted 7 days. They said that the Euphraites flooded over and he drifted into the Persian Gulf for about a week. The Babalonyian story goes along with the story of Giglamesh too!

Point being what if those 7 days of rain where Gods 7 days of creation.

" and on the seventh day let there be light" ... the sun came out after a seven day storm??? Maybe? just a thought

[quote=Bigwhammy]
you were with God when he inspired the Bible ...

Actually there is a good chance that you were too... if you were not incarnated on this or a different planet.
Peace and Harmony through Unconditional LOVE!

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Well I didn't even have to look much at all before it contradicted the Old Testament.

The issue Big is that in whose eyes does it contradict?
Spend time in a southern baptist, presbyterian, & pentecostal church (throw in charismatic for fun)

I use this example, for if someone looks at it...and past defending everything that challenges a particular way of thought, they may be able to see something past the particular dogma they may have.

I know, you have said basically that Im full of hot air and condescending, and you can prove it.
You are able to prove whatever it is you want to believe, this is the trick
This is why debating and defending are futile.

But moving on, if you care to try...go visit and learn how they interpret the Bible differently.

Then take the jewish sources that you said dont match the Bible and argue with a rabbi.
Im sure that you feel you know better than the rabbi...after all he is deceived for not believing that Jesus is the messiah...right?

Ah, you might say that the sight is not done by a rabbi.
Well I will give you one just incase you might say that.
Koshertorah.com

But I dont think, as my other post pointed out (which you didnt read, as I had guessed you were pretty set in your thoughts you had concerning where Im coming from), I dont believe your truly interested.

An interesting this is this.

The saying that you are accountable for what you know.
Well I think it can be applied in another way then what Christians usually take this to mean.

If the truth will set you free, then if a seed is planted that you dont agree with...well, the seed is there. I may never see the result (and Im sure this may be where my post may sound condescending as if I know better than you...this is not meant to be the point), but the fact is that truth (wherever it may come from, will sit in a person and one day may lead to a total change in perspective. Or a deeper understanding.

If your not wanting to really learn...then reading controversial post is dangerous.

Peace

dAlen

p.s. my point about the baptist and presbyterian & pentecostal was this.

1- once saved always saved
2 - you are predestined so it doesnt matter what you do
3 - you lost the salvation at the alter

With one of these you loose.
Christianity does not even agree on how to get saved or stay that way.

so a lot is a matter of interpretation, and I feel you dont see this.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Ok thanks for clarifying that. That's why I reacted when the very first thing I read on that Kabbalah site said the Angels were created during the 6 days. Because if it's Jewish it shouldn't contradict Job and Genesis. I believe the creation is not the same as the 6 days. If you can find the book Genesis Unbound by Dr Salhimmer it is excellent.

You actually seem to be open here...(not being sarcastic at all)
Well your not as closed as you appear.

It does boil down to communication (and fears) after all.
(yes that includes me)

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 17-3-2008 by dAlen]

reply to post by dAlen



Sorry Dude, the thing that really annoys me is that you make claims like the "school of Prophets" where they learned Kabbalah and even though you are supposedly so versed in the scriptures you will not back it up. It causes me to not believe you.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy


Sorry Dude, the thing that really annoys me is that you make claims like the "school of Prophets" where they learned Kabbalah and even though you are supposedly so versed in the scriptures you will not back it up. It causes me to not believe you.

Dont let it bother/annoy you.
And dont believe me. Search for yourself.

Re-read what I wrote and you will find a lot of info.

But in summary, you do realize that again, each denomination with Christianity clings to a different 'meaning' of what they 'think' the Bible is saying.

Its kind of like not seeing the forest for all the trees.
(I still find that a weird saying, at least said casually, but the point is there.)

Peace dude.

dAlen

[edit on 17-3-2008 by dAlen]

Intro
Here are some references that may help get you in the right direction.
That is seeking beyond the normal constrictions we place on ourselves so that we can actually see that forest though all the trees.

Again, whether or not you see the relevance to the post is up to you.
Everything is a choice and everything we see is a perspective... that can change.

P.R.D.S.

In Judaism there are 4 methods of understanding Torah/Bible.

1) Pshat - simple
2) Remez - hints
3) Drash - allegory
4) Sod - secret

I wont go into detail at this point, but I will say that Jesus use of parables is indeed a vary Jewish tradition. But does this surprise anyone? I suppose the 'literalist' it may, but then again they are not busy observing the life of Christ but the 'letter of the law'.

Which is to say that they contradict themselves through their unwillingness to see the picture...full picture in context.

"I can show you the door Neo but you have to walk through" - Morpheus.

And for his/her mind who is not open, they will not listen to any reason or argument.
But a seed is planted, non-the-less. If they act upon it is soley up to them.

"The first act of awakening is an act of grace, after that its up to you" - paraphrase Eckhart Tolle (E.T.) from audio book "A New Earth"

various 'thought' lines
"All the prophets proceed in the path (of our teacher Moshe) to straighten the path of the people, to enlighten their eyes with the wisdom and secrets of the Torah, this by the power of the Holy spirit cloaked within them." - sh. kedusha pt. 3 gt. 3

"Many have the misunderstanding that the prophetic experience is something physical, happening outside themselves. This is not true" - Rab A. Tzadok - Yikrah B'Shmi pg. 38

"This is the secret of the sons of the prophets, that musical instruments were used (see 1 Sam. 10:5), for by the beat of the music and the melodious voice, they were able to..." Sha'arei Kedusha - Pt 4. gate 2 - R. Haim Vital

"And I will pour my spirit upon all flesh, your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams and your young men will see visions. Even on the servants and the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit...It shall be that whoever calls in the name of HaShem shall be delivered." - Joel 3: 1-4

"Be it man or woman, Jew or Gentile...all can receive Ruah HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit, i.e. Divine Inspiration), all in accordance with one's actions."
Tana D'vei Eliyahu (The teachings of the prophet Elijah, Eliya Raba, Chap. 9 / Yikrah B'Shmi)

What?
The above is a great starter point in learning to launch past the comfort zone of ones thinking. It is NOT meant to be taken as a belief system or something to get lost in endless debate with.

It is meant to help see past words and to concepts...ideas...those things which slip through our fingers as we cling so vehemently to words which loose their meaning as soon as it goes through anothers grid system.

Hint
Perhaps you would like a specific reference to a school of prophets.
Well I would highly recommend to read and re-read and keep reading the O.T. until you get past the words and see the actions, which speak louder than words.

This, also, would help to unite the body of Christ, as the denominational split is because of everyone taking and filtering one sentence from the Bible through their own view point.

An easy example is the life of Jesus.
People get lost in the semantic of words and justify all kinds of evils in his name when his life clearly did not demonstrate any of the actions they show which they say is "in his name."

also the actions help put perspective and clarification on whats happening.

What is it?
What is prophesy? Is it magic? What is magic? What is kabbalah?
Is the words starting to fall apart? Good...once the words fall apart the ego breaks down and then "God can speak to you"...or in other words you can start to see what is in the front of your nose.

If there was prophesy, how did it work?
Did God possess them? What info do we have on this?
What habits and patterns do the stories in the O.T. show.
Is there indeed a specific reference? Is there an indirect reference?
(seek and find whats hiding in the Bible.)

We learn, and again this point has been brought up time and again, through a sincere search.

Jesus promised that the one who searched with all their heart and not within the confines of ones own religion or in the confines of how one interprets one text...the one who seeks with "all" their heart will find.

But to do this you have to get rid of fear....But this is not something to struggle with, per say...its more about learning love. Love for oneself. Acceptance, and this goes towards others and then things work themselves out.

Conclusion
But if one is not open, even telling them they are not open doesnt work.
At the same time, who am I to judge who is open? I dont know what or where that person is at...and again we are not really communicating. We have words going back and forth trying to relay a concept and idea in hopes that it will be understood.

Peace

dAlen

p.s. - and observation of Jewish tradition would seem to make one believe that indeed prophesy was not God just jumping in a few people and 'possessing them'.

I have a book on it before me now from a Orthodox Sephardic Rabbi on prophesy.
(how to book/practical) - Yikrah B'Shmi - Call Upon My Name by Rabbi Ariel Tzadok at koshertorah.com

(Bunch of free pdf files in the online library for those who can find the link on the site)

NOTE
In not asking anyone to believe what Im saying...Im just asking them to open their minds and ask questions. But we dont like feeling like we dont know so much.
Truth is look at the universe...there is so much we dont know...time to get used to it and relax and stop pretending (to ourselves) that we know it all.

[edit on 17-3-2008 by dAlen]

Originally posted by rexpop
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

None of this is Kabbalah. It sounds an awful lot like gnosticism. I'm sorry, I know of no Jewish kabbalist who believes anything remotely like this. Of course, like I said, the Jewish religion accommodates some very divergent beliefs, so maybe there are some sources that make these claims, but they're not accepted as authoritative in the Jewish mainstream.

This is very much a misrepresentation of kabbalistic interpretations of the creation story. To be clear, I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting kabbalah, but the source you've found would be considered blasphemous by Jewish kabbalists, as it is by me, and by you it appears.

I agree that much of this sounds like gnosticism. But I'm not sure there's a huge difference. Rexpop, If you would like to start a thread and invite me, I'll be glad to join. However, I'm no expert at ANYthing, and will be the first to admit that, but I do have an open mind. However, I am not sure that websites, Youtube, and you-have-it are the best places to get information, and even books can't always be trusted, and certainly not everything we learn from biased profressors in college these days. So, if you know the place to look, I'll certainly look and give my feedback.

Edit to Add:

However, please understand that I'm not at this site to argue my faith or anyone else's faith for that matter. I find argument turns into argument for the sake of argument and gets nowhere. My purpose for being here is to glean what information I can to grow and to offer what information I have to others who would like to grow. I find, more and more than not, however, that my belief system is attacked left and right and have, more than a few times, had to come to its defense just for the sake of defense, from people who are just as closed-minded to my religion as they accuse me of being to theirs. This is fruitless, and I'm just not interested in that type of debate.

Thanks,

I_R

[edit on 3/18/08 by idle_rocker]

reply to post by dAlen


One of the greatest errors I've ever has from within myself is the assumption of understandings on conscious levels being universal throughout everyone's abilities to comprhend.

Just because you understand the truth of something and because the fact of the matter is that it is true doesn't translate over to individuals abilites to percieve "truth" as "real". Those that dwell in fear and whom are unwilling to seek out the factual truth because of their assumptions of ownership of "truth" are deep asleep and refuse to wake up.

It's best to let the sleeping sleep. That's my view. Absolute Truth is always a quest, keep on the path for yourself and let those that think they have, but have not, stay asleep.

reply to post by idle_rocker


Ha, I think you overestimate my learnedness on such matters, IR, but I'm going to take it as a compliment *ego = boosted*

Not sure how I managed to boost your ego, but if that's what you got out of it, that's fine by me. I'm SURE NOT here to make anyone feel any LESS than what they are, and would prefer it to be the other way around. I'm a positive person - until I find my belief system is so under attack that it takes debate with a vengeance to protect myself from stupidity. But fortunately I don't need to let any of that bother me...I am comfortable in who I am, what I am and what I believe, and basically my own skin. It didn't come easy and no amount of "clutter" applied to the most expansive, beautiful universe is going to destroy my belief that, not only is this the most beautiful place I've seen, but there's even more beauty on the other side.

Slightly off topic there, but giving you my response, so...there it is.

First off get Maddonna out as a spoaksoerson.Shooting B12into the asses of friends and neighbors,and handing out wrist trinkets is a very good reason to never send your child to her childs birthday party.

Where do these people get so full of whatever?,that it takes them to the edge of stupidity.

Iv'e seen verses that basically call the women that wear these bracelets to be shunned.I don't know what the Torah has to say but suspect this is where the bible got it from.

From what i understand of Kabala it's more of a buddhistic mindset.

Maddonna is just a scarry person with needles and way too much influence,her only cotribution to this following should be to teach your children about the dangers of (rabid)cultists of any theology!!!

reply to post by mule skinner


Ha, don't worry the "Kabbalah Centre" is seen as a joke by nearly all orthodox batei din.