Jesus was a master of Kabbalah

reply to post by Bigwhammy


OK, so I've been reading through the sight your linked (Ha Qabala) and I have to say it approximates Kabbalistic teachings as I've studied them only in the very slightest of details. None of this comes from Jewish tradition, except for some of the names. The meanings, the stories and the beliefs have been changed to create an entirely new belief systems which is very alien to and remote from Judaism and Jewish kabbalah.

I've got a link here that's very good at describing Orthodox Jewish traditions and traditional Jewish kabbalah that you might like to read - believe me, it will give you a lot greater insight into what kabbalah actually is than the site you've just found. You might find that it's not all anti-Christian blasphemy (although, because it is Jewish and not Christian kabbalah, you might find some of the messianic interpretations blasphemous because Christ does not figure one iota into it). Kosher Kabbalah Yeah, yeah, I know the name's pretty lame...

EDIT: This is to your latest post BW, but "practical" kabbalah, as it were, is very different to contemplative kabbalah, which I don't think you'll find to be occult or blasphemous - it describes in a speculative way the nature of God, how He interacts with his creation, and ways of intense prayer to draw oneself close to Him. Most importantly, it teaches one how to infuse every single action with 'spirituality', to make sure that each motion you make is in service of the Lord. Also, Christianity has a very long history of take kabbalah and making it acceptable for the Church, so you might want to investigate that. The demon-raising and amulet side of things is just a very small part of what kaballah is actually all about - and the Torah very explicitly forbids sorcery and witchcraft, so Orthodox Jews are particularly careful not to stray into those areas.

[edit on 16/3/2008 by rexpop]

reply to post by idle_rocker


Ah, Phew!

And to Chromatico - I think you'll find that I acknowledged in that post that our discussion was off-topic and that if we wished to continue it we should move it to another thread. I seem to remember you challenged me to find Talmudic reference to rabbis performing the same miracles as Jesus - which I did - but you haven't really replied to it since then. What's up with that?

reply to post by rexpop


I have been following this thread but it is quite long and apparently I've missed it. Care to requote for me?

reply to post by rexpop


I would love to discuss this with you more because I have very good Jewish friends (I'm assuming you're Jewish, but really have no idea). But right now I am very tired and have to go off-line. Perhaps we can pick this up at a later time. Kapich? Did I say that right?

For Chromatico (it was on page 2)

Originally posted by rexpop
Here is an excellent essay on Talmudic and Rabbinic exorcism faculty.biu.ac.il... which gives full references and is much more scholarly that I can manage. We see here that when conducting exorcism, Jesus was just one in a long line of Jewish luminaries so to do.
Indeed, if you read the part about Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa you'll notice that he too was put in a cave and a large stone rolled in front of the exit which was moved aside for him by mystical (in this case, demonic) means.

Also, of Rabbi Chiyya it is said that he could make the wind blow and the rain to fall by his prayers. The Talmud hints he could even raise the dead if he so wished (Baba Mezi'a 85b).

Rabbah and Rabbi Zera have a competition of sorts at creating and destroying a "golem", but this is following a narrative when Rabbah killed R. Zera and then resurrected him (Sanhedrin 65b).

Another amazing resource on this subject I'd recommend you read is a book called "Workers of Wonder" by Byron L Sherwin.

OK, so outside of the essay (which is packed with references) I haven't been able to dig up many Christ-like miracles myself, but that's not because they're not in the Talmud, it's because I don't have a Talmud with me and searching the net is laborious. I've chosen the two above because their both famous examples, and both show that Jesus was not unique in bringing people back from the dead, and the essay I linked talks a lot about exorcism, the other miracle Jesus is really famous for. I'm afraid I don't know of an example of a rabbi turning water into wine, but then that doesn't mean one doesn't exist - I haven't read the whole Talmud. It's bloody massive.

I hope this is enough to prove that I wasn't just making spurious claims, Chrome, but I'll keep looking and adding more examples. Also, I think I should note that I found many more examples on the net, but as they weren't properly referenced (so I couldn't tell you where in the Talmud you should look to corroborate my claims) I haven't included them here.

EDIT: To add info about Eliyahu, who also raised the dead and ascended to heaven in his physical body:

According to the Books of Kings, Elijah raised the dead, brought fire down from the sky, and ascended into heaven on a whirlwind. In the New Testament, both Jesus and John the Baptist are on some occasions thought to be Elijah, the latter actually being described by the Archangel Gabriel as coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17)

taken from en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by rexpop


Well, Elijah's PRETTY close, though he didn't do nearly as many miracles...Talmud? I think those miracles are a stretch, not really that close.

reply to post by rexpop

Well I didn't even have to look much at all before it contradicted the Old Testament.

Angelic beings fall into two general categories -- those which were created during the six days of Creation (referred to as the "ministering angels") and those which are created on a day-to-day basis to fulfill various missions in this world. The names of the angels change in accordance with their mission.

Kosher Kabbalah

The Angels were not created in the 6 day account.
Your KOSHER Kabbalah Contradicts the Biblcal account in which the Angels were already created before the six days
Job 38
4 "Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?

6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone-

7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?





[edit on 3/16/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by chromatico
Well, Elijah's PRETTY close, though he didn't do nearly as many miracles...Talmud? I think those miracles are a stretch, not really that close.

"Rabbah killed R. Zera and then resurrected him (Sanhedrin 65b)" Ha, come on, man, the guy was resurrected! You're just a spoil sport!

reply to post by rexpop


Come back with a self-resurrection and then we'll talk.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Don't forget, Jews have the Oral Torah, as well as the Written Torah. When you read what you call the "old" testament, you're only getting half the story according to Judaism.

The only way believing that God made angels during the six days of creation would "directly contradict" the Bible is if the Bible stated "God definitely did not make any angels in the six days", which it doesn't. In fact, the Written Torah doesn't disclose one way or another whether angels were made - the Oral Torah tells us that some were.

Again, like I said, I don't expect you to change your Christian beliefs - Judaism and Christianity are very different religions for all their similarities, and just as I find your religion unsatisfying, you're going to find mine unsatisfying. I only linked you to that site so you could get an authentic Jewish understanding of kabbalah because the site you'd found before was so off the mark as to be insulting and blasphemous. Just like I find prostrating yourself before graven images and worshipping a human as God to be highly blasphemous, you're going to find the parts of Judaism that disagree with Christianity to be abhorrent to you. But I'm not trying to convert you, just trying to show you what we believe. You don't have to believe it.

reply to post by rexpop



What do you mean Job is the oldest manuscript we have.

Well how could the Angels be singing during creation if they weren't created yet???

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

Your KOSHER Kabbalah Contradicts the Biblcal account in which the Angels were already created before the six days

Ah, also, the site says that the angels were made during the six days, not before. Nothing but God existed before the creation. The first angel, according to Jewish tradition, was created on the second day.

EDIT: To clarify - Jewish tradition isn't uniform on this belief, and you're absolutely right, BW, some sources say that myriads of angels were created before the first day of creation.

Most Jewish sources also say that something else was created before the first day of creation (by 2000 years, in fact) which is the Torah.

[edit on 17/3/2008 by rexpop]

I heard he was a master of Judo also. And he could tame dinosaurs.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by rexpop

 

What do you mean Job is the oldest manuscript we have.

Well how could the Angels be singing during creation if they weren't created yet???

I never said either of those things. In fact, I haven't mentioned Job at all. And the angels were created during the six days... uh... I think we've got really mixed up here...

reply to post by chromatico


Ha, you got me there!

reply to post by rexpop


Let me try. We BELIEVE Job is the oldest assembled book, based on Mesopotamian parallels. We do not have it as the "oldest manuscript" AFAIK. The earlier (chronologically) books were assembled from oral tradition after Job.

hey you guys think people will look back at sitcom transcripts and think they were our bible? or think they were inspired by some great screen-writer in the sky?

reply to post by rexpop



Well the Hebrew scholar that I believe, Dr John Salhimmer, says the six days isn't about the creation of the universe at all but the preparation of the Garden for man. The Hebrew word reshet gets translated to "In the Beginning" this always stands for a period of time , not a point in time. The creation of the universe actually occurred "In the Beginning" like the first line of Genesis says. The six day account that follows is god preparing a place for man.


[edit on 3/17/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by PuRe EnErGy


Well, that's silly because we know the Old Testament has always been the basis for Judaism and the New the basis for Christianity.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


That's an interesting interpretation, I'll look more into it. My interpretation of the creation story is that it's not in anyway literal but purely allegorical and mystical, and once we understand its insights better we'll come to a much greater comprehension of the beginning of all matter and life, and also gain a greater knowledge of the inner-workings of God.