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Jesus was a master of Kabbalah

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posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by dAlen
Sure Jesus was kabbalist.
Even more so was Paul.


Agreed.

And if we consider ancient Egypt to be at least one of several souces of the Kabalistic body of divinity, we can also trace it back to Moses, for the Apostle Paul said that "Moses was learned in the ways of the Egyptians".

I've always believed that the Kabalah provided the true keys to the interpretation of the Scriptures, and that without it, all one has to base their knowledge on are fables, many of which are quite ridiculous if taken literally.



[edit on 6-2-2008 by Masonic Light]




posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 10:20 AM
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That's assuming Kabbalah has any worth or power.

From my experience the two people who I know practice kaballah talked about having to be of pure heart and mind and were quite respected people in Glastonbury UK.

Only thing is, from an atheists point of view they were no better than anyone else, only THEY talked about being of purer heart and mind and still suffered from jealousy and bitterness that is inherent in the human soul.

The only light in their lives came from the candles upon altars, despite everything they preached, they were still materialistic, snobby, judgemental...

They preached and attempted to convert me, and ruined my life for a year (i ended up single, jobless and homeless).

Like any other religion or belief, it's just a comfort blanket, a way of division and arguement and a false hope.

Why act in a nice way because God or Allah or Jesus told you to be nice, why not use your common sense and just be nice anyway.

Kaballa



posted on Feb, 6 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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Originally posted by mr-lizard
That's assuming Kabbalah has any worth or power.


If it is the key to the interpretation of religious symbolism, then it has inherent worth. If not, then it's worth would be questionable.


From my experience the two people who I know practice kaballah talked about having to be of pure heart and mind and were quite respected people in Glastonbury UK.


When you say "practiced" Kabalah, what exactly did they do? Kabalah is primarily a branch of metaphysics, a philosophical viewpoint. I'm curious as to how they "practiced" this.


Only thing is, from an atheists point of view they were no better than anyone else, only THEY talked about being of purer heart and mind and still suffered from jealousy and bitterness that is inherent in the human soul.


I would have to agree with your skepticism, and I too have seen this time and time again with self-proclaimed "spiritual" people.


Like any other religion or belief, it's just a comfort blanket, a way of division and arguement and a false hope.


That would hold true if your premiss is true, i.e., if the Kabalah is false. But if the Kabalah is true, it would open an entirely different argument.


Why act in a nice way because God or Allah or Jesus told you to be nice, why not use your common sense and just be nice anyway.

Kaballa


Kabalah does not say that we should act in a nice way because God tells us to. Kabalah, as a form of mysticism, rejects the mainstream interpretation of God. Kabalistic theology can be described as either Pantheistic or Panentheistic, depending upon the individual Kabalist. Few, if any, Kabalists believe in the existence of an anthropomorphic "personal" God.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
Few, if any, Kabalists believe in the existence of an anthropomorphic "personal" God.


I don't know how you feel confident in this claim. What statistics of kabbalists do you have to base this assertion on? Since kabbalah is primarily a set of keys for reaching a unity with God, and more importantly, for interpreting the "secret" levels of meaning in the Torah, and one of its primary teachings is an equivalent to the "all opposites are united in God" philosophy, it would surely make more sense to say that most kabbalists do believe in a personal God. I freely admit though that I haven't spoken even to a small percentage of the total kabbalists out there, let alone "most" of them. Also, the whole term "kabbalists" is a complete misnomer. You can't really be a kabbalist on its own, you have to be Jewish (or Christian) with it too. Kabbalah isn't a religion in itself, but a way of interpreting your religion.

Also, the most devout "kabbalists" I know are all Hasidic Jews (mostly Chabad, some Breslovers too and a couple of Satmars) and they are very involved in kabbalistic teaching but very strongly believe in a personal God. God is the impossible, logic-defying unkowable one who is both absolutely alien and as close to us as our own outlines. Kabbalistic interpretation of Torah and its theories on the soul as fantastically intricate and beautiful, and too often are simplified or detached from their original connection to the Bible.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 02:06 PM
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I don't know much about it, but since the term Kabbalah doesn't occur until aprox. 1000 AD I don't see how this is possible.


The origins of the actual term Kabbalah are unknown and disputed to belong either to Solomon ibn Gabirol (1021 - 1058) or else to the 13th century CE Spanish Kabbalist Bahya ben Asher. While other terms have been used in many religious documents from the 2nd century CE up to the present day, the term Kabbalah has become the main descriptive of Jewish esoteric knowledge and practices. The Kabbalistic literature, which served as the basis for most of the development of Kabbalistic thought, divides between early works such as Heichalot and Sefer Yetzirah (believed to be dated 1st or 2nd Century CE) and later works dated to the 13th century CE, of which the main book is the Zohar representing the main source for the Contemplative Kabbalah ("Kabbalah Iyunit").

wiki

And dAlen usually when I make a claim about the scripture I back it up with an example. I know you have all this training, so please educate us a little, and provide evidence with your claims.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 02:29 PM
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Years ago I, as a christian, was taking classes on Judaism from a rabbi.
At the same time, I was reading a book, a piece of supposed fiction, that traced a line of Jews from around the time of Christ, up to the present.
The book was brought up in the class and the Rabbi started to talk about it.
He was like looking into an unfocused distance and started talking about being able to see historical events.
He started to imply that the author had a power, by use of Kabbalah, to write about these events.
He snapped back into the present, and stopped himself and never brought up the subject again.
There is something very dangerous about seeking un-natural powers, that ordinary people have no buisnes getting involved in.
As for Jesus, I believe he was initiated into secret knowledge, but one that is reserved for the select few, who had to deal directly with the earthly manifestation of God, on this planet.

[edit on 15-3-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


Whilst the term "kabbalah" may have originated around 1000CE, it is possible that many of the teachings which came to be known under that broad nomenclature had been around prior to that date. Jewish tradition has it that kabbalah was taught to Moses on Sinai at the same time as the rest of the revelation, but that many of the key notions were already known to Abraham who discerned a lot for himself, but also received a lot of knowledge from his forebears (kabbalah can be translated as "the thing that is received"). Originally, apparently, Adam was taught kabbalah (or whatever it was called back then) by an angel, and Adam then passed it on to Seth who passed it down the generations etc. etc. etc.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting this story is literally true, I'm just saying what the tradition is in my community.

Reading the NT, it is very possible that Jesus could have been a student of such knowledge - all of his miracles had been performed before by other rabbis in the Talmud, all of whom were able to do so because of their outstanding piety, closeness to God and Torah-learning.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by rexpop
 


Alright, cite the Talmud for examples of these alleged parallel miracles.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 03:08 PM
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Challenge accepted, please give me a little time to find all the references.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 03:12 PM
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what happens if you remove the labels of Jesus, or quaballah, or any words at all, what is IT they are all talking about?

You have the ability to rise above man made language and see for your self what Jesus was or what he was teaching. Its universal.

What jesus taught was perfect for the time he incarnated, a simple message to simple people. Sure pick it apart, youll need quaballah or daoism to fully understand it to the point of verbal explanation.

The secret teachings are just extended label groups for what can be found in stillness and silence. let the mud of your thoughts settle and experience the clear water that is always there allowing any cloudiness to occur.

If sages wanted to discuss what they experienced in meditation or prayer, they needed to come up with a whole slew of terminology, thats why jesus came to teach a simple message that would lead to the same revelations, calming the minds that already had too many duties to be able to pursue the extremely pius life of a holy man.

its like a shortcut, but if you want to learn the intricacies of what IT is, then IT will guide you to the specific study that will help you proceed.
Or if you doubt IT's existence, the secret teachings will help you understand from a scientific point of view.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by rexpop
 


The only evidence that would give credence to these claims would be a scroll or tablet that is as old as the old testament. But all you have for the Kaabbal is form 1000 AD. Without any evidence that sounds like a legend made up by people who are into Kabbala. I really am new to the subject please show me some evidence, I just don't see it yet.

It doesn't make sense in light of the scriptures either. When Moses staff turned into a snake he was as surprised as anyone else. God did those things, I don't believe they had to practice "magic" to perform those miracles.

The claim about the Talmud is weak as well since it is after Christ as well.

The Talmud has two components: the Mishnah (c. 200 CE), the first written compendium of Judaism's Oral Law; and the Gemara (c. 500 CE), a discussion of the Mishnah and related Tannaitic writings that often ventures onto other subjects and expounds broadly on the Tanakh.

wiki



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


Indeed, I don't disagree with you. I'm not advocating these arguments, merely representing them in the debate. Also, with regards to the Talmud: the Talmud was never meant to be written down at all. It is all oral tradition that was meant to stay that way, but the Rabbis feared the oral traditions would be lost so recorded them to ensure their survival. It may have been written down later, but its recording some very old information. Unfortunately, but the very fact that the data was exclusively oral, you won't find anything written down that's as old as the Torah. Also, on that note, there aren't even any documents of the Torah that are as old as the Torah.

Also, Chrome, those Talmud references are coming.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 04:43 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
The only evidence that would give credence to these claims would be a scroll or tablet that is as old as the old testament. But all you have for the Kaabbal is form 1000 AD. Without any evidence that sounds like a legend made up by people who are into Kabbala. I really am new to the subject please show me some evidence, I just don't see it yet.

It doesn't make sense in light of the scriptures either. When Moses staff turned into a snake he was as surprised as anyone else. God did those things, I don't believe they had to practice "magic" to perform those miracles.


Bigwhammy, hows it going?
Im going to give it a go at trying to relay a concept in my brain in a way that can be understood. - the chances of this being succesful, well, lets not look at the odds.

(We both know from past post that I have been unable to successfully get the intent of what was being said across...sometimes communication is harder between people due to how their grid system pre-processes all the thoughts.

But now that I got that out of the way, to clear things up a bit, lets give it a whirl.

The reason this is difficult to communicate, besides the grid systems we have from our religious and social milieus as we grow up...is that information come in layers like an onion.

Much like Judaism and this includes Jesus and his time (as he was jewish), things, ideas were spoken in parables. Again, I have pointed out that the account of Genesis is looked at as nothing more than another parable by orthodox Jews. (and why should that surprise us as jesus, a Jew, showed this very example in communication.) But to gentiles, or those not raised in that social/religous milieu, we take what is seen and heard and interpret it through the light of our own experiences.

The concept is called P.R.D.S. in judaism. Its 4 levels of understanding the Genesis account.

But moving on...

Kabbalah, yes I would say that Jesus and Paul were both kabbalist.
Paul for a fact, and I only say that because I studied his stuff inside out for day upon end in my youth...and when I studied kabbalah, everything it said reminded me of something Paul said, and added new depth.

So that is personal testimony, and for me I will not be persuaded any other way, as I have seen and tasted it for myself, so to speak. But the name is semantics. Call it kabbalah, call it merkavah, etc. Yes one may be closer to a correct description than another, but the basic point is there to which the words are pointing towards.

- so easy to get lost in the words and what they mean to us and not what they mean to someone else. (I guess thats whats called listening to the spirit when you can put down your preconceived prejudices to feel whats going on.)


There are so many aspects to what kabbalah is or isnt.

Lets get past some of the minor concepts and look at the bigger picture.

In the O.T. in Elijahs day there was a school of the prophets.
See this was something that was learned...it was a school.
(And not like a school of fish, in that they were called school because they travelled together.)


So the idea of Kabbalah extends back to that time.

Now again, what kabbalah is to me and to others vary, and there are different schools to kabbalah. The merkevah mystics were probably closer to what jesus was up and about doing, but none the less the theoretical stuff is definitely in Pauls teachings.

You learn some of the ideas in Kabbalah and then read Pauls writing on the body of Christ and you will have a light bulb go off in your head.
And the fact that he said we are located on earth and heaven at the same time...(yes he says that...baptist preacher I know even befuddled people to say that he believes it, though he does not understand it...well, Judaism has a leg up on this, if thats the right expression, if he wants to get more info into the point.

Now anyone can twist and use anything to their agenda.
The goal is to extract the light in every corner...God is everwhere, even Psalm says, "In sheol I am there." We usually look in the comforts of our own dogmas...but those who want an experience with God will "seek...with ALL their heart and find."

That about sums it up...the rest would turn into a debate.

"I can only show you the door, you have to walk through" - Morpheus


peace

dAlen

p.s. - well I guess I basically said what I already said on page 1...anyways...


[edit on 15-3-2008 by dAlen]



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy

And dAlen usually when I make a claim about the scripture I back it up with an example. I know you have all this training, so please educate us a little, and provide evidence with your claims.


Its quite fortunate, I suppose that Im reading this post.
As if you follow me, or what I say, you will know I post and move on.

Why...similar to your post above.

You have to search yourself. Its not enough if I spoon feed.
The reason really is simple. If your interested you will seek and find.

If your not, then spoon feeding turns into debates back and forth "through ones grid system", as I stated, which is developed through ones cultural and religious milieu.

I have to be honest at this point big...truth is I just dang lazy to post more than I do now. Do you blame me? I do suppose eventually all this will manifest in one place...but then again maybe not.

Yes, thank you for recognizing my experience.

In truth, yes it is there - and aside from my 'resume' of sorts posted in parts here and there - I know the futility of talking to anyone in any religion about topics that go against the grain.

Only with a friend do you stand a true chance.
With an open minded person as well...as you can reach beyond the preconceptions and see to the heart of what is being said.

But I have stated somewhere before, I do not personally feel the forums give the allowance, or freedom to truly and effectively communicate ones true feelings and point of view.

I will give one example.

Eckhart Tolles teachings (not religion, philosophy) changed my life completely.
For someone else it may not do jack squat.


But the point really is this.
When I read his book I understood it one way. Even thought he was being rather sarcastic at one point.

I bought the audio books and never looked back.
For one I could hear him, and found out that I misunderstood where he was coming from and how he was actually presenting the material.

The voice carries a lot on its own.

I would really like to share with you more or anyone for that matter - but due to my own limitations and lack of patience to try to explain in written format (which as stated is limited, and does not usually get past the preconceived filters of the mind)...I choose, obviously to state what I do...and move on.

This may urk some people. But those people are typically the ones that wont get me even if we were in person.

Now I do believe a seed is planted. Truth always is recognized in the other when it hears it somewhere, no matter how hidden it may seem.

But when it awakens and how, its not up to me.

I do appreciate your query though, and truly hope that something I said helps.

Again, dont expect follow up from me on anything I say - but that is due to what i said above.

Peace, and all the best in your search dude.


dAlen

p.s. - so again, my post will be sufficient for some and for others not.
Those that want more will not find it here and thus may find it 'non'interesting and not beneficial to read my post. My ego would love to feel that it has something to share with everyone...but at the same time I need to continue to learn how to receive as well as try to give. (i.e. see what it is someone is saying and get the 'truth out of it' without pushing it aside because i dont agree with them. This stems from fear...its all ego.)


[edit on 15-3-2008 by dAlen]



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 05:50 PM
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reply to post by dAlen
 


I was hoping you could provide the verse(s) you keep referring to that discuss this "school of prophets". It ought to be easy enough for you. I do not think it's too much to ask.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 06:44 PM
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Here is an excellent essay on Talmudic and Rabbinic exorcism faculty.biu.ac.il... which gives full references and is much more scholarly that I can manage. We see here that when conducting exorcism, Jesus was just one in a long line of Jewish luminaries so to do.
Indeed, if you read the part about Rabbi Hanina ben Dosa you'll notice that he too was put in a cave and a large stone rolled in front of the exit which was moved aside for him by mystical (in this case, demonic) means.

Also, of Rabbi Chiyya it is said that he could make the wind blow and the rain to fall by his prayers. The Talmud hints he could even raise the dead if he so wished (Baba Mezi'a 85b).

Rabbah and Rabbi Zera have a competition of sorts at creating and destroying a "golem", but this is following a narrative when Rabbah killed R. Zera and then resurrected him (Sanhedrin 65b).

Another amazing resource on this subject I'd recommend you read is a book called "Workers of Wonder" by Byron L Sherwin.

OK, so outside of the essay (which is packed with references) I haven't been able to dig up many Christ-like miracles myself, but that's not because they're not in the Talmud, it's because I don't have a Talmud with me and searching the net is laborious. I've chosen the two above because their both famous examples, and both show that Jesus was not unique in bringing people back from the dead, and the essay I linked talks a lot about exorcism, the other miracle Jesus is really famous for. I'm afraid I don't know of an example of a rabbi turning water into wine, but then that doesn't mean one doesn't exist - I haven't read the whole Talmud. It's bloody massive.

I hope this is enough to prove that I wasn't just making spurious claims, Chrome, but I'll keep looking and adding more examples. Also, I think I should note that I found many more examples on the net, but as they weren't properly referenced (so I couldn't tell you where in the Talmud you should look to corroborate my claims) I haven't included them here.

EDIT: To add info about Eliyahu:


According to the Books of Kings, Elijah raised the dead, brought fire down from the sky, and ascended into heaven on a whirlwind. In the New Testament, both Jesus and John the Baptist are on some occasions thought to be Elijah, the latter actually being described by the Archangel Gabriel as coming "in the spirit and power of Elijah" (Luke 1:17)
taken from en.wikipedia.org...

EDIT: For Bigwhammy:


Most prophets received special training. The school of the prophets was first instituted by Samuel. 1 Samuel 19 tells us that It was located during the early years at Ramah 1 Samuel 19:19,20. Later schools were established at Bethel, Jericho, Gilgal, and elsewhere 2 Kings 2:3,5. The schools attracted student of the word who were given formal training in the law and its interpretation. They were lead by an elderly prophet called Master. This is where the term the sons of the prophets comes from. 1 Sam. 10:12; 2 Kings 2:3.

Now just like in our modern schools of theology not everyone who was enrolled in these schools possessed the gift of prophecy. Also it is like today not all inspired prophets were graduates of such schools. Amos, although called to be a prophet, was trained outside the prophetic schools of the day.


taken from www.abu.nb.ca...

I'm looking for scriptural evidence of a school of prophets earlier, but haven't found one yet.

I dunno, maybe there isn't one...

[edit on 15/3/2008 by rexpop]

[edit on 15/3/2008 by rexpop]



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:08 PM
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The more research I do the more I have to disagree. If you are to believe in the ancient origins of Kabbalah it is indeed from Fallen Angels.

Paul most definitely said this: "Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions."(col 2:18)

I understand the term Fallen Angels to be the ones who interfere in human affairs like the watchers in the Book of Enoch. From what is described below, any teaching that teaches calling on Angels rather than God is of fallen origin.


The Sepher Ha-Razim is a Kabbalistic text supposedly given to Noah by the angel Raziel. Note that this is a different book than the Sefer Raziel HaMalach, which was given to Adam by the same angel. To say that it is an unorthodox text is an understatement; while traditional Jewish laws of purity are part of the cosmogony, for instance, there are "praxeis which demand we eat cakes made from blood and flour" (Morgan 9). It is supposedly a sourcebook for Jewish magic, calling upon angels rather than Yahweh to perform supernatural feats. The text itself was once considered to be part of "orthodox" Judaism under the influence of Hellenism, but this text, along with other works of Kabbalah, are considered to be unorthodox at best and heretical at worst in modern Judaism.

wiki

To say Paul is a Kabbalist is a direct contradiction to Paul's own words.
"But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"(Gal.1:8)
So to say Jesus or Paul adheres to the practice of calling on Angels rather than Yahweh as taught in Kabbalah is just absurd heresy.

Notice I provide specific evidence for what I say not just wild claims.



[edit on 3/15/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:15 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by Shawn B.
...... After driving a mute demon out of some dude, which enabled him to speak again, a lot of people accused Jesus of working with Beelezub. And Jesus gives a kind of round-about answer to the accusation, never quite denying it.


A kingdom divided against itself will fall...

The wicked shall slay the evil....

There could be good working within bad along with bad working within bad just as there can be bad working within good and this is depicted in the yin/yang symbol.

and those groups who infiltrate other groups to destroy them from within.

[edit on 3/15/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:27 PM
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reply to post by PuRe EnErGy
 


Yeah, like maybe the whole thing is a false dichotomy? After all, nothing in the multiverse happens beyond God's Will, right? And I'm sure we all agree the God is both omnibenevolent and omnipotent, right? Well, therefore, Evil cannot exist.



posted on Mar, 15 2008 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by rexpop
 



Cold doesn't exist either. It is simply the absence of heat. Dark doesn't exist either it is the absence of light. Yet we experience them...

Evil is the absence of God created by sin or disobedience.



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