Jesus was a master of Kabbalah

reply to post by rexpop

Did no one read my post?

Hey rexpop, when I said big talk no evidence I wasn't referring to you. I did see what you came up with. It is my belief that if you are going to make claims in a forum like this it is your obligation to back it up with evidence. There are a lot of crack pots and outright liars on the internet. dAlen claimed it was in the Bible. When I make a claim like that I provide the verse or I do not make the claim. And the school of prophets was probably where they learned to read and write. back then the only people who could read and write were the religious leaders. Without specific evidence, I highly doubt it was a "magic" school.

f Jesus really was the son of God (and for intellectual honesty here I will tell you my real belief which is that Jesus was just an ordinary person who was later transformed into a religion) he wouldn't need to use kaballah as he would be God and therefore omnipotent. Only mortals (and maybe angels and demons?) require kabbalah to perform miracles.

Exactly!!!! Why would the son of God need an occult system ?- He's God!

Exodus 4:

1 Moses answered, "What if they do not believe me or listen to me and say, 'The LORD did not appear to you'?"

2 Then the LORD said to him, "What is that in your hand?"
"A staff," he replied.

3 The LORD said, "Throw it on the ground."
Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake, and he ran from it.

See it is obvious Moses was clueless as to how it happened. He was afraid.
It was all God. To try and attribute the miracles of Jesus or even Paul to some sort of occult man made mysticism is to take away from the glory of God in my opinion.



[edit on 3/16/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

Originally posted by idle_rocker
reply to post by rexpop

 

God is all-loving. Evil is necessary to reveal love and right-thinkingness.

Okay so what you're saying is... you wouldn't recognize someone being nice to you without people being jerks to you?...

or you wouldn't be able to see people doing good in the world without the people doing bad?........

These are dangerous belief systems which allow those bad people to exist in tolerance.

PureEnergy, I'm not sure if you're talking to me, but I believe it was you that told me I had a dangerous belief system before. If you go back and read my last post again, you will see that I have edited it, probably about the same time you posted this. However, my belief system is no more dangerous than someone who doesn't believe in God at all. So your statement is false and is resented if you are accusing me of having a lesser belief system than you.

God gave the ten commandments to show what evil is. Prior to that, the children of Israel did not know that what they were doing is evil.


[edit on 3/16/08 by idle_rocker]

Originally posted by rexpop

Originally posted by idle_rockerThat still doesn't mean God isn't all-loving. He doesn't create the wars and other evils you mention. He does not love those.

Then, by your own admission, He's not all-loving: there exists something he does not love (namely sin). He might be very, very loving, but as long as there is something, even the tiniest thing, even the most hateful thing, that He does not love, he cannot, by definition, be all-loving. The important part here is the all bit.

God does not love sin. He did not create sin, Satan did.

I agree with that (apart from the Jesus part). I do want to stress that my own personal beliefs are very similar to yours, idle_rocker, I just want to make clear that theodicy is no simple matter. There is no answer to it that is going to satisfy everybody, or even answer the problem in its totality. The problem of evil is something we all have to struggle with if we believe in both an omnibenevolent and omnipotent God. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I'm just trying to say that it's a profoundly difficult issue and that there are no easy answers. If there were, theodicy wouldn't have been the hot-topic for theologians from time immemorial to present day. No one has yet found a solution that answers the problem comprehensively. If they had, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. I just think it's really important for all believers of anything (and not just talking about religion here) not to get complacent in their assumptions and faith. Faith is meant to be a struggle, a constant dialectic with the Almighty - at least in my opinion, although I have no beef with you if you disagree completely.

I agree with you in this whole paragraph in that it's very difficult to understand AND that theolgians throughout the centuries have argued the same message. No one person can claim to have the answer...only God knows himself. However, what I can give you is my opinion and it is, of course, my opinion as is everything else I post on ATS.

Also, for those of us for whom Jesus does not figure in our faith, the problem of Evil is not answered by Jesus' crucifixion.

What the crucifixion did, and resurrection, was to cleanse us all who ask for forgiveness from our sins, that God dislikes. This does not however *un-make* him all-loving. It just makes him not like sin, which he did not create, so I think he has a right to dislike it, especially since it has all but destroyed mankind.

I used the cross to demonstrate that Jesus recognized that men do not recognize the evil that they do, even though they have been told time and time again. I guess you missed my point on that.

Look, I'm not here to argue with you. Or, to push my belief system on you. I actually loathe athiests who try to do the same thing to me, so no problem here. I am just explaining it how I understand it the best way I know how and make it in as simplistic terms as possible. I can go out and find a whole lot of theological teachings to back me up, but they would probably go over lots of folks' heads (not saying yours'). If you would like to discuss it in private, I am always glad to do so.


EDIT: for typos, the usual drill

[edit on 16/3/2008 by rexpop]

OF course Yeshua was the master of ALL things! Actually Yeshua was above all 'human/physical' things When you travel with spirit and disperse your atoms to re-assemble.. there is no magic, there is no 'sorcery'. There is pure knowledge and power of our creator. Yeshua was to teach this to the people of the world. There are things that you can never put 'humanism' to.. and sadly the Kabbalah does just that... there are things that can only be communicated through the 'original' communication from creator to createe. It is all so simple, yet soo complex... It is your reality, it is my reality, and it is the combined realities of all things through all down to one perception. A selfish person wants to see that all are selfish, but then by power/competition/authority does the selfish ones reach a hierarchy. When the selfless ones understand that the TRUE hierarchy is EQUALITY and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE then can we return to the source and it's vibration.
I wish all love and learning! Live your life to the fullest you can!
Peace and Harmony through Uncondtional LOVE!

I was looking into Mormonism for another thread and the Kabbalah came up. See Mormons believe God has sex in heaven, funny so does the Kabbalah. The more I learn the clearer it becomes. It' pure deception from the evil one.

If you trust the Kabbalah then Jehova is the deciever and the serpent is the good guy Yeah right!

"One reason for this is that “Qabalistic masters maintain that it was not the serpent (Enki) [in the Garden of Eden] who was the deceiver as we are led to understand. The deceiver in this instance was Enki’s half-brother, Eloh-Jehovah (Enlil), "

Ha Qabala

No Christian has any business messing around with this evil crap.

Kabbalah for Dummies!

There is a spectrum of ways to percieve "reality" around you. There can be broken down into conscious understandings. Many people spend their lives asleep unaware what level of consciousness their mind/spirit resides in let alone that there are others. These are the close minded people who fear mental expantion. They will fight against it. They would tell you it is evil.

Evil isn't on any layer of conscious understanding, actually the more levels you have and the higher you go the better quality of Gem you make for God.

"Evil" is the confused mind on a level of understanding and the chaos that leads to the limited view of conscious understandings when inpowered by free will to dominate others.

Kabbalah is nothing but a level of conscious mind in among the collective mind consciousness and touching the universal consciousness. This is why those that are able to think in such a range can see many more deep and hidden meanings in everything.

Kabbalah is nothing to fear unless you are afraid of the light. However Kabbalah can't be taught so much as it has to be achieved.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


It's odd that you mentioned that, BW, because in my days of rebellion I got this twisted idea that I wondered if Satan was really the one we should worship - that the bible wasn't true but was sent to deceive us. It seems after reading many posts on ATS, I'm not the only one that has gotten that idea.

However, as you can see, I did not prove that twisted idea, and instead found the exact opposite - the truth of the Bible. That Jesus/God is our redeemer and savior and everything in the Bible is true.

Noone has to believe me, of course. Take up your own quest, search, and find the truth.

reply to post by idle_rocker


You Idealisim of "bible truth" is actually relitivly new and well deluted from the original understandings.

It is as if there was a glass of wine that everyone kept stealing sips out of and replacing their theifts with water so that the percentage of actual wine left in the glass is about 93%

reply to post by Incarnated


Well, I'm not exactly sure what you're saying to me. Could I get you to restate that in a different way? I'm a little tired and may not be comprehending as well as I should.

Jesus..I don't care! I have to get props together for tomorrow! Jesus!! I don't care!! I have to take my kid to the dentist next thrusday!! Jesus!! I don't care!! I have to check my blood sugar!! I just don't care!! I have to pay bills to keep my house!! I don't have time!! Jesus...get it!!

reply to post by Incarnated

Kabbalah is nothing but a level of conscious mind in among the collective mind consciousness and touching the universal consciousness.

Wow you used a lot of really big spiritual sounding words to say absolutely nothing. Impressive!

You Idealisim of "bible truth" is actually relitivly new and well deluted from the original understandings.

And you know this because you are the Arch Angel Michael and you were with God when he inspired the Bible ... ohhh please.

Originally posted by RUFFREADY
Jesus..I don't care! I have to get props together for tomorrow! Jesus!! I don't care!! I have to take my kid to the dentist next thrusday!! Jesus!! I don't care!! I have to check my blood sugar!! I just don't care!! I have to pay bills to keep my house!! I don't have time!! Jesus...get it!!

Yeah, I get it. You have the same level of stress in this modern world that the rest of us have. So if you have that much to do, why are you on ATS? I don't mean to be ugly, but that was a little "Ruff", Ruff.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


None of this is Kabbalah. It sounds an awful lot like gnosticism. I'm sorry, I know of no Jewish kabbalist who believes anything remotely like this. Of course, like I said, the Jewish religion accommodates some very divergent beliefs, so maybe there are some sources that make these claims, but they're not accepted as authoritative in the Jewish mainstream.

This is very much a misrepresentation of kabbalistic interpretations of the creation story. To be clear, I'm not accusing you of misrepresenting kabbalah, but the source you've found would be considered blasphemous by Jewish kabbalists, as it is by me, and by you it appears.

reply to post by idle_rocker



Modern "Christianity" "biblical truths" are a product of Ameican Lit that reaches around 175 back. This is well documented regardless of what big dummie say. It's basic learning for any core american lit college class.

I have very good conservative Jewish friends and none of them follow Qaballa. You might find it in an offspring of conservative Judaism somewhere, but not in the circles I'm familiar with.

Originally posted by Incarnated
reply to post by idle_rocker

 

Modern "Christianity" "biblical truths" are a product of Ameican Lit that reaches around 175 back. This is well documented regardless of what big dummie say. It's basic learning for any core american lit college class.

Oh I see, we learn it in college. That explains everything. Thanks for the clarification.

Originally posted by idle_rocker
Look, I'm not here to argue with you. Or, to push my belief system on you. I actually loathe athiests who try to do the same thing to me, so no problem here. I am just explaining it how I understand it the best way I know how and make it in as simplistic terms as possible. I can go out and find a whole lot of theological teachings to back me up, but they would probably go over lots of folks' heads (not saying yours'). If you would like to discuss it in private, I am always glad to do so.

Oh, I'm really sorry, I think I might have come across as a bit aggressive. It wasn't my intention - I was worried that you thought I might be being aggressive which I why I tried to explain myself better in the last post, but it looks like I made matters worse.

I haven't thought of you as argumentative or proselytising, I was actually enjoying our discussion, we were getting through a lot of cool stuff. I really hope it didn't seem that I was pushy.

I appreciate you explaining your beliefs so clearly (and then finding very good arguments to defend them against a lot of different viewpoints I was using). I think in my excitement to explore the issue, I might have made it seem like I was attacking your beliefs when I was really just trying to push the logic of the argument.

To restate, I do believe both that God is all-loving, but that suffering is required as an act of God's love to make us suitable vessels to receive his blessings and grace, and to truly experience closeness and some kind of unity with Him.

I don't know exactly how to accommodate this belief with God's omnibenevolence and omnipotence, and I didn't expect you to have the solution either. I'm sorry if it seemed like I was pushing you.

I would love to keep discussing this with you, although there's no need to do it in private - if we do it on another thread (because I wouldn't want to take over this one for an off-topic discussion) then other people could join in as well, and we could get a proper discussion going with lots of different viewpoints. Maybe the faith forum on BTS would accommodate us?

Just a final question, though, in this thread, and I ask this purely purely interested outsider:

God must have wanted Adam to sin, because if he hadn't sinned, then there would be no Fall, humankind would have been limited to Adam and Eve who, having never been made base by their sin, would never have reproduce. If this had happened, Jesus would never have been born to save the human race, because it would never need have needed saving. As a Christian, is the birth of Christ not kind of the 'point' to existence? If humans didn't sin, they wouldn't need saving, and therefore they wouldn't ever need Christ. Surely in this way alone God loves sin, because without it he wouldn't have had an opportunity to beget His son whom he loves?

Again, I'm not trying to attack your beliefs, I'm just trying to start a discussion - especially because I've had a lot of fun with our discussion so far, and have found it both intriguing and enlightening.

reply to post by rexpop


Guys, this doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Jesus was a Kabbalah master! Off-topic!

reply to post by rexpop



I think exactly the problem is that it's not clear what is and what isn't Kabbalah so it almost means nothing at all then... I have seen enough, it's occlut. It's a magic art and it's specifically forbiden by Paul.

I think it's very obivious that what is today called Kabbalah was not something practiced by Jesus Christ. That's all I really care about. I think it is taking away from his glory and trying to paint him as a magician which he was not.

reply to post by rexpop

Actually, Rexpop I enjoyed our conversation. I was replying to another poster that had replied to you...I believe. Don't remember now, but yes, I enjoyed our conversation and am in no way upset with you. I try very hard not to do that, but sometimes don't succeed. I am human, after all.