I Wish To Offer An Opinion On Atlantis

I have had a little to do with Aboriginal dreamtime stories and though I didnt hear anything atlantean I was singularly impressed with the concept of oral history. The Aboriginals I met used the quorum concept of not talking about anything important unless several learned men were present to bickker about the accuracy of details.
One such was the local inventor of the stone-tipped spear a fellow called Bangmorro whose name was still active in the tribe as a "family " name and the heroic bit of technology depicted in cave art we dated at plus 45k years.
As for Atlantis i like the Bock Saga, in ancient finnish Alt Land Is or all the land is ice, tales from before the ice age based around Hel, now helsinki
the "temple" mentioned in his saga has some credible evidence but the excavation is foundering. The finnish think hes loony but I have a strange feeling, it makes a great read and much sense.
I am following it up and will post more later but google vids has some speeches that are decidedly interesting, even if it pans out.

start here for the speech
www.youtube.com...


some reading required here
www.mousewaggler.co.uk...

Originally posted by merka
Come on Harte, he challenged you to make a new thread, do it

I have to this date not seen a single solid piece of evidence that Atlantis existed in the sense Plato describe it (time period, size, location, etc) and I have seen absolutely no credible evidence presented for the every-other-civilization-talks-about-it-too aspect, just a whole lot of talk.

Yes that is just it though,
WE are searching to find the evidence everyone desires,
and WE are doing this by examining the 'Talk' of this ancient lost city/country/continent/collective

As for the OPs proposal: What mountains/land do you suggest we direct our attention to?

My past decade of research has indicated that the most plausible area for this whole mythos to of started/Atlantis to be based, is in the continent of Asia,

As i have explained previously, our last expedition was to China, but was flawed due to needing to understand countless different dialects of chinese

As one of the first contributors to this thread said, I also do believe 'Atlantis' to be one of many collective cities of a single culture, however 'Atlantis' in my belief wouldve been the crown-jewel city.

reply to post by AmmonSeth


Hi AmmonSeth,

I don't have any specific knowledge of 'mountainous citidels' per se, but your question did make me think about the 'well-worn' theory of Atlantis being submerged ... and the great assumption that this was below water due to rising sea-levels (even the most sceptical amongst us cannot deny that a considerable amount of landmass was submerged underwater during the thawing of the last Great Ice-Age). Nowadays that assumption is not only feesible but substantiated by underwater archaeologists, who are regularly discovering signs of (submerged), ancient shorelines and pre-historic settlements that had once been on dry land.

But if as you seem to suspect, Atlantis has a mountainous connection ... there is still potential for the 'submersion theory'.

Ok guys, to explain this I need to disgard my cloak of esoteric wisdom, that many of you (who have come across some of my threads and posts), probably think is what I'm all about ... and release my 'inner-science nerd' Yep, that's right, I'm not a one trick pony ... and I don't just pluck my sometimes 'wild hypotheses', out of thin-air ... shock, horror !!! Reason I don't usually divulge my dirty little secret is because people will either agree with the suggestions I make (here and elsewhere), or they won't, whether they know my background or not ... simple as ! The truth is I only ever use my scientific knowledge as a yardstick ... to see if my esoteric hypotheses are viable concepts.

So, back to my suggestion to make of what you will;

I'm sure most of you have heard about or at least know the rudimentaries concerning 'Plate Tectonics' ?
The most prominent topographic features of the Earth are associated with these plate boundaries, concerning the relative movement of said plates.

If memory serves me right (it's been a while since I studies the 'Natural Earth Sciences' at uni), there are 14, tectonic plates that make-up the Earth's crust;

(Northern Hemishere) ...

1. The Eurasian Plate
2. The Juan de Fucas Plate
3. The North American Plate

(Equatorial) ...

1. The Philippine Plate
2. The Cocos Plate
3. The Caribbean Plate
4. The Arabian Plate

(Southern Hemisphere) ...

1. The Indian Plate
2. The Pacific Plate
3. The Nazca Plate
4. The South American Plate
5. The African Plate
6. The Scotia Plate
7. The Antarctic Plate

These plate boundaries are divided into 3 types ... Convergergent (where 2 plates push towards each other) ... Divergent (where 2 plates stretch apart from one another) ... and Subducting (where 2 plates meet but one slides beneath the other).

The plates themselves are either ... Oceanic (beneath the sea) ... or Continental (on land).

When 2 convergent, continental plate boundaries meet, mountain ranges are formed e.g; The Alps/Himalayas. The Earth's crust shortens and thickens at these sites ... beneath the Himalayan mountain range for example the 'crust' extends down to a depth of 70km (compared to the normal average 35km).

(Ok, bear with me);

Over geological time-scales moving solids (the plates), can behave like liquids do on a short time-scale (imagine mixing custard powder with milk). When mountains are forming the crust thickens ... forming the root of the mountain and this sinks deeper into the mantle. As mountains erode the roots of the mountain belt rise back up.

The Himalayas are currently rising by about 4-7mm per year ... so quite a slow process in the grand scheme of things. But this is only the case when things are running smoothly.

If we add a little upheval into the mix we discover that convergent plate boundaries are also the place where catastrophic volcanic eruptions and devastating earthquakes take place !!!

The collision between 2 convergent plates is resposible for earthquakes (but not volcanic activity) this is true of the Himalayan mountain belt, where the continental part of the Indian Plate collides with the continental part of the Eurasian Plate ... whilst collision of the continental part of the Arabian Plate and the continental part of the Eurasian Plate are responsible for the Zagros Mountains, running NW-SE from Turkey to the Gulf of Oman. So this kind of activity can cause rapid reactions (things being buried ... things rising up to the surface etc.)

The highest relative speed is found at the convergent plate boundary between the (oceanic) Nazca Plate and the (continental) SouthAmerican Plate (along the Peru/Chile Trench).

So, wake-up and stop dribbling into your computer keyboard ... lessons over.

The point I wanted to make (yes, I do have one), is this;

With all this activity going on in mountainous areas ... it's not wholly ridiculous to consider the possibility that 'Atlantis' (or at least one of the Atlatean locations ... representing the element of 'air') ... could have been submerged/subducted during some freak activity in one of the worlds mountain ranges. And remember this could also apply to 'underwater' mountain ranges.

Well, there you have it ... I'll leave you to draw your own colclusions ... just thought it was worth throwing the idea into the pot. It would be interesting to hear from anyone who sees the potential of this idea ... to maybe post their potential location suggestions and explain why they chose that particular location. I have a couple of front-runners myself but I'll wait and see if anyone else has a contribution before I post.

Sorry if I bored the pants of you all. Woody

]reply to post by woodwytch

Since the last 15 years we do know that one very ancient culture existed in the arctic hemisphere! During 1993-98 a group of Russian and Norwegian researchers of geology, archaeology and palaeontology researched the area around the White Sea, where they found the remainders of a socially well developed, modern, arctic man, older than 40,000 years! This implies that the development of the arctic man (Caucasoid) has happened in a limited area between the Gulf of Finland and the Kara Ocean, during Ice-Time. This may also explain how a highly adapted human, with a strong, refined and specialized social culture could emerge all over Fenno-Scandia and Russia immediately after Ice-Time was gone.

See: "The Pechora Project"/Univ. of Bergen, Norway. Introduction, "Nature" Sep 6th 2001.

In 1996 Finnish archaeologists found a 70,000 year old habitat, inside a cave in southwest Finland. Today Susihuola (Wolf Cave) outside the city of Kristinestad is under research by both Finnish and international experts. In 2001 it was concluded by both Finnish and German laboratories that the (hereto) oldest traces from human activity inside this cave were about 300,000 years!

www.nba.fi
Choose English and Archaeological Research

[/quote

I tell ya the bock saga covers all the posts here, its worth a look.
everything sems to fit even if the source seems strange, my study of Rune development led me to it...if there are holes lets debunk it but it covers most everything mentioned in this thread...

heres the story in a nutshell
www.bocksaga.de...

[edit on 15-1-2008 by aussiespeeder]
a pdf file details everything pretty well, if in halting english...
www.bocksaga.de...

have a good read all and get back to me when you have.
I would post quotes but its all copyrighted. and besides its a great read.
[edit on 15-1-2008 by aussiespeeder]

[edit on 15-1-2008 by aussiespeeder]

reply to post by aussiespeeder


Hi there and very pleased to meet you,

What can I say other than WOW. I've just finished reading about the 'Bock Sa-Ga'. Thank-you for pointing me in that direction.

Ok, I have my esoterical cloak wrapped tightly back around my shoulders after my little scientific interlude.

That was amazing ... and I'm sure you know as well as I, that they with 'locked minds' will dismiss it all out of hand (no doubt with a couple of sarcastic comments added for good measure) ... little realizing that they miss the whole bloody point, hey ho!!!

No worries, nothing will convince them or draw them from their rigid mind-set ... but as for me (who uses both sides of my brain), that is a little gem that will take some decyphering ... but is crammed with great stuff to paw through.

Thank-you again. Woody

reply to post by ST SIR 86


No, nothing to do with the nazi thing ... IMO, they were always barking up the wrong tree ... like people who only have access to half a map and wonder why they get lost.

Woody

[edit on 15-1-2008 by woodwytch]

reply to post by aussiespeeder


OOPS ! Somehow missed the first part of the post about the research.

That just made it all the more interesting. Great info ... I'd never heard any of this before.

Woody

Originally posted by aussiespeeder


I tell ya the bock saga covers all the posts here, its worth a look.
everything sems to fit even if the source seems strange,

the "Bock SaGa" as it stands...Flys in the face of Plato's account
in which he informs the listener/reader that the fate of Atlantis
happened 10,000 years prior to his era. ~~or about 12,000 BCE~~

the Bock SaGa traces the oral tradition to 45,000 years ago,
so we are back to previous eras of technological civilizations on Earth
and not an Atlantis lost in the foggy mists of this eras pre-history

-)))basically around 16-12,000 BCE when the ice age meltoff(s) happened
many times at many different places(((-

are we to follow some critera but not others?
thanks....

reply to post by St Udio


www.bocksaga.de...

This is 90 pages that explains everything I think you will find it illuminating
pgs 14-22,41, 72 specifically about Plato where the Bock times and platonic time coincide well, but read the whole thing its a beauty! Enjoy!

[edit on 15-1-2008 by aussiespeeder]

reply to post by woodwytch


www.bocksaga.de...

this is the stuff to read first I reckon its pretty on the money, too much!

since you were so nice I made you a friend
(I have enjoyed some of your pastlife reads, nice and backup too, so we arnt all loonies)enjoy



hmm cant wait for the Honeymoon!!!!!!!

Thank you for bringing this 'bock saga' to my attention,
I am going to dedicate 2 members of my research team to this,
It may not relate to 'atlantis' directly, but it certainly covers
alot of details about ancient times, and could have an impact
on our understanding of the atlantean civilisation,

I will keep you updated on our research, and will post
any reports that my team hand to me.

In reference to Woody
You mentioned under-water mountain ranges in your post,
Now this is something that i had truely never considered
even though it is i who practically invented the Mountainous-Atlantis theory,

I still do believe currently that there is alot to be answered for
in China, however i will personally be looking into any possible
civilisational activity near underwater mountain ranges

Originally posted by aussiespeeder
reply to post by St Udio

 

www.bocksaga.de...

This is 90 pages that explains everything I think you will find it illuminating
pgs 14-22,41, 72 specifically about Plato where the Bock times and platonic time coincide well, but read the whole thing its a beauty! Enjoy!

[edit on 15-1-2008 by aussiespeeder]

I read those pages.

14-22 mentions nothing on Atlantis.

41 reference to "Atlantis time" but that's only to indicate the last ice age. One can also see a part of the HILARIOUS attempt to make "Gotland" into "Goatland" and thus "Bockland" (bock/get = goat in Swedish). It has to do with gutarna that came from the area. Why on earth a Swedish island would would be based on an English word is beyond me. This "Bockland" only exist in his book apparently.

72 doesnt say much.

But you know, I did read a couple of pages around it, and sure he mentions Atlantis from time to time. But not once does he provide any evidence whatsoever for Platos Atlantis: in fact his description of Atlantis take up NOTHING similar to Platos Atlantis (just for starters he says its a small place, not a continent, p. 74).

reply to post by St Udio


Hi there,
Interesting question you pose. Of course I can only speak for myself but personally I don't set too much store by Plato's account. I think he'd probably heard a few whispers in scholary circles (concerning Atlantis), and filled in the blanks using 'poetic license' as far as dates\locations etc. The reason I think this, is simply because if the things he wrote were all factual, I'm pretty certain something would have been found to back it up by now ... what with all the so-called New-Age interest.

After reading the Bocka Sa-Ga details, I'm far more inclined to think their timeline is much nearer to the truth ... at least as far as my own theories are concerned ... it ties-in very neatly.

Woody.

reply to post by aussiespeeder


Hi there,
Thanks for making me one of your friends ... I think !!!

Friend ... honeymoon ???

And there was me thinking aussie'SPEEDER' meant something else entirely.

I shall be reading the rest of the links as soon as ... what I've read so far is intriguing.

Woody

reply to post by AmmonSeth


Hi AS,

Underwater mountain ranges;

Take a look into mid-ocean ridges ... they are equally as active as continental plate mountain ranges if not more so.

1. Mid-Atlantic Ridge
2. Juan de Fuca Ridge
3. SE Indian Ridge
4. SW Indian Ridge
5. Central Indian Ridge
6. Carlsberg Ridge

This system of mid-ocean ridges extends around the Earth for around 65,000km, and form some of the planets most spectacular mountain ranges ... that form shelves/slopes down towards the abyssal plains (4-6km below sea-level).

So, plenty of potential for exploring a new concept methinks. Woody

Hey ATSers,

Can I jump in here and get away for a little bit from our UFO siting in TExas, I want to take you to the Mediterrainean and another possible theory that has not I dont think been disproven or mentioned in your thread.
I posted this in November, tell me your views, page 6, ok:

www.abovetopsecret.com...&mem=gwhint

I like the subject of Atlantis, so keep throwing out the post theories.
gwhint

[edit on 15-1-2008 by gwhint]

reply to post by gwhint


Hey there,
Just read your posts on Rapturas' thread, again more interesting data. I've read about Solon's trip to Egypt and there is definately some interesting information to digest amongst it.

I'm happy that you chose to post it here because the more theories gathered ... the more sense we can make of the whole Atlantis thing and it's good that there are some new ideas coming forward.

BTW, I didn't know you were into Atlantis !!! More synchronisity ... it just keeps on coming.

Woody.

(ps; check your mail).

Originally posted by aussiespeeder
As for Atlantis i like the Bock Saga, in ancient finnish Alt Land Is or all the land is ice, tales from before the ice age based around Hel, now helsinki
the "temple" mentioned in his saga has some credible evidence but the excavation is foundering. The finnish think hes loony but I have a strange feeling, it makes a great read and much sense.

Ever considered that there is a reason finnish people consider him a loon? I'd like to argue what I consider to be complete nonsense in this "Bock Saga" a little further.

"Alt Land Is" is clearly not ancient Finnish. Ever read Finnish? You couldnt even understand it, let alone reference something as simple as these three words in sequence.

www.websters-online-dictionary.org...
Notice the languages mentioned, then compare to
www.websters-online-dictionary.org...
And then of course
www.websters-online-dictionary.org...
Again look at the languages.
While "Alt" is a little all over the place, its quite clear that these three words together has roots in Roman latin and European languages. Finnish as a language doesnt even come CLOSE to this, it doesnt share roots. "Is" is funny, since the current Finnish word for it is "jää". Close? Uhm... No. In Swedish, the word for ice is... *drumroll* "Is"!!! Amazing huh? Again proves the relation to Roman latin and not Finnish. Land just as well. Alt seems inspired by Swedish also. In Swedish, the entire sentence would be:
"Allt Land Är Is" (All The Land Is Ice, "the" is hard to tranlate to Swedish since it doesnt exist. "The Land" on its own would accurately translate to "Landet", but "Allt Landet" is not proper Swedish so it becomes "Allt Land"). Coincidence? I'm using Swedish as comparison, but it wouldnt be far off for Danish, German, etc either.

The "Hel" in "Helsinki" just prooves how little the writer knowns... In the Bock Saga he even states that "no one knows where the Hel part comes from". HA! HAHAHAHA!!! It comes from the area called Helsinge and a stream called Helsingån (presently called Vanda å). In Swedish it was/is called Helsingfors... Which could literally be translated to "Helsing stream" (fors and å is similar). The city was founded by a Swedish king as Helsingfors, its only later it got the Finnish name Helsinki. So technically, "Hel" isnt even the part of the word that can be used in comparison: You need to use "Helsing". In which case it has more in common with vampires than with Atlantis.

And that ends my assesment of the Bock Saga. Complete and utter rubbish.

[edit on 16-1-2008 by merka]

Why the emphasis on location?

What strikes me as odd in the atlantis-debate is why we all try to fix atlantis at a specific location. Wouldnt a lost empire or civilization have been distributed all around the globe rather than only at one place?


Is it possible for an entire culture to be lost without a trace?

If it is not possible for something to be lost without a trace, then skeptics are right in calling us nutjobs. Otherwise there would be traces for sure.
But if it is possible to be completely wiped out (by a comet impact of disastrous proportions for example), then the only place we could find hints of what once was...a loooooong time ago....is in the remnants of the stories ancients tell us. These stories would probably be copies of copies of copies of copes and much information lost within thousands of years.
Much more would be lost by religious and political zealouts seeking to get rid of certain information that doesnt support their agenda.

The problems skeptics have with us is that we are first establishing a hypothesis and then looking for dots to connect it instead of looking at the availible dots and then arriving at a hypothesis...

...or so they think. But the dots WERE indeed there before forming a hypothesis with which we connect further dots. The skeptic uses fossils as the dots to determine history, we use written text to connect the dots.

So it all boils down to whether you trust written account or dismiss it all as fiction.