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Masonry and Compartmentalized Secrecy - Not So Easy To Dismiss

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posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
The difference between the ATS Conspiracy Theorist and all of these Masons running around is that they desperately do not want to admit the possibility.

Is it possible to harbor a group within a group, without other members knowing?

Is it possible for this group to control the whole of Masonry without the group knowing? No. Unless you can give an example of how this would be done. Tell us how this inner circle could get the masons on this board to worship Satan without them knowing?

There are many conspiracy theorists, including myself, who believe the Masonic conspiracy is a Red Herring.

Trilateral Commission, yes.
Bilderberger, yes.
CFR, yes.
Freemasonry, no.




posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
There are many conspiracy theorists, including myself, who believe the Masonic conspiracy is a Red Herring.

Trilateral Commission, yes.
Bilderberger, yes.
CFR, yes.
Freemasonry, no.


I am one of those, for what it's worth.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 02:38 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


Hello Woldover,

Now first of all I am not a Freemason nor am I one of their supporters. I am just a guy who is very interested in Freemasonry and for many years now I have done a lot of research and have even talked to many Masters about Freemasonry. I’m very glade I did because I have learned many things about life, history, and the human mind.
Freemasons have their secrets but its only for their protection and identification (hand-shakes and things like that).
From what I have learned other that that Masons have wisdom that cannot be told in words, not secrets just can’t be told in words. Also you cannot teach someone Freemasonry you can only guide a man to teach himself.

And the term is degree not levels.

From what I can tell Freemasonry makes good men better.

And just to let all on this site know that to speculate falsehood about a Mason you might just be talking about your brother, father or grandfather someone in your blood line.



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 03:13 AM
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reply to post by intrepid
 


Again I am not a Freemason nor do I support them, I am just some dude that has actually looked into what they are all about.

The only inner circle I can see is the one that a person inters when you walk threw the door of a lodge and ask to become a Freemason (you used to have to do it three times in the past) but if you become a mason after that you’re in the inner circle because as a mason you can under no circumstance ask a man to become or join the Freemasons yet again another reason why the might seam so secretive lol.

Freemasons are all about freedom of thought. If you can sit here and call them names I have a feeling its thanks to them.

No one advances in Freemasonry if they cant or don’t want to.

But Freemasonry is in every thing from baseball to college.



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:34 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
Is it possible for this group to control the whole of Masonry without the group knowing? No. Unless you can give an example of how this would be done.


An example? Sure. I recommend reading the original post. This thread is about masonry and compartmentalized secrecy.

Within a compartmentalized organization any system of 'ranking' allows for members known or unknown to exercise influence. In the case of the Masonic 'conspiracy' only a handful of members in high places can combine influence to validate the idea that yes, manipulation can be achieved.

To claim otherwise is denial. It may be denial for sake of allegiance to fraternity, but it's denial all the same.

To claim there is no possibility of unknown influence?
Are we operating within the same reality? Sometimes I wonder in this forum...


[edit on 20-2-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Wu,

If you have time and the inclination, you might want to browse through this thread and then this thread.

That'll give you a sense of the monkey business (so to speak) that's been going on around here.

Twitchy (the poster Appak was responding to) has something of a bee in his bonnet vis-à-vis Masonry and there's been something of a shakeout here.


Excuse me, but none of that is related to the topic of my thread. I am not interested in the chip on Masons shoulders in this forum and would appreciate it if you keep your spiteful attitudes in check within my threads.

To call this thread 'monkey business' is to make a mockery of the ATS conspiracy forum in general. If you are tired of regular ATS members discussing conspiracy within a conspiracy forum, I recommend appealing to the moderators. Maybe the site will agree to change it's premise to appeal to the comfort of Masons.

Back to the topic at hand.



posted on Feb, 20 2008 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
"Compartmentalized Secrecy?" Sure, there's the possibility. Happy now?


[edit on 2/18/08 by The Axeman]


Not really. I would be more appeased if you could admit the possibility without attempting to mask the acknowledgement behind sarcasm.


Nevertheless, once in a blue moon, a Mason will admit that there is a possibility of secrecy , but that it is ridiculous to speculate. Hence the rolling of the eyes etc.

I'm not satisfied with either response, as it lacks honesty. Also, one liners are against site posting guidelines. Thanks.

[edit on 20-2-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 04:34 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


I recommend you reread your own OP if you believe my post to be irrelevant. You claim that the "higher level" can somehow manipulate the "lower levels"...


But the theory of masonry itself is that lower levels are not going to disclose or even be aware of the manipulations of higher levels.


You claim Masonry is manipulated by higher levels, yet you fail to give any examples of it happening or how it could even happen within the context of decentralized Masonry. AugustusMasonicus has successfully demonstrated how Masonry is decentralized in this thread. (an article well worth reading
)


Within a compartmentalized organization any system of 'ranking' allows for members known or unknown to exercise influence.


You might be comparing apples and oranges. Freemasonry is decentralized. The Military, on the other hand has a centralized decision making system. A General can give a Captain an order, and the inferior officer is expected to comply without question. In such a system it is easy to see how a compartmentalized department can manipulate other departments. Dr. Steven Greer does a good job at describing how Special Access Programs and Unacknowledged Special Access Programs can be used to easily keep secrets from the general population, non-officers and other officers. (even a President)

In a Corporate structure, which is usually centralized, the board of directors can issue policies without the lower level workers being consulted or even being aware of these new policies. For example, the Board may decide to move a factory to Indonesia. However, the average worker won't find out until months later when he receives his/her layoff notice. Again this is possible in a centralized command structure.

On a conspiratorial note, lets take the Bilderberg group. At their first meeting in 1954 the group allegedly drafted the plans for an European Union. The steering committee communicated these plans to their fellow elite at their yearly meetings. (Probably through a series of sponsored research and speeches.) Bilderbergers who have made their fortunes in oil, banking or the media are all naturally, pro-corporate and they all wish to expand their markets and desire to make it easier to conduct business within these markets. The creation of a EU was beneficial to all members present. Once again, it's easy to see how these commands (or more likely suggestions) can pass on through their ranks. Bilderbergers don't let every worker in their corporate empires know what their plans are. Again this is possible because of the centralized nature of the Bilderberg group and of the corporate structure which supports it.

Even if there were "hidden compartments" within masonry, a 32° mason cannot expect a 3° to follow his orders, no matter what compartmentalized department the 32° claims to be from. (Again, can you give us a modern example of this happening? The most recent example I could think of would be the P2 Lodge, but again it operated independently and had in no way, any influences over other Lodges.)


In the case of the Masonic 'conspiracy' only a handful of members in high places can combine influence to validate the idea that yes, manipulation can be achieved.


There is no mechanism in place for them to be able to achieve such manipulation. Remember, Freemasonry is decentralized.


Are we operating within the same reality? Sometimes I wonder in this forum...

You might want this forum to be a replica of the freemasonrywatch discussion forum, but I for one, and I'm sure many members would agree with me, don't want it. I hope that ATS is somehow above this.

NewWorldOver, why would these "high-level" people manipulate Freemasonry? What kind of secrets would they be guarding?

Wouldn’t secrets be best kept behind the legally-binding non-disclosure agreements commonly used nowadays by corporations? Aren’t the security oaths taken by members of the military sufficient in maintaining secrecy?

Why use the non-legally binding oaths of a Mason?

If you could give me a clearer picture on why the control of Masonry is such a necessity in today’s world, I’d be much obliged.


[edit on 21/2/08 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23
You might want this forum to be a replica of the freemasonrywatch discussion forum, but I for one, and I'm sure many members would agree with me, don't want it.



Spot on.

As perfect a post as I have seen in a long time.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 11:15 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 



Originally posted by NewWorldOver
Not really. I would be more appeased if you could admit the possibility without attempting to mask the acknowledgement behind sarcasm.


Well, I'm not here to appease you, so that's OK with me.



Nevertheless, once in a blue moon, a Mason will admit that there is a possibility of secrecy , but that it is ridiculous to speculate.


No. It is not ridiculous to speculate. It IS, however, ridiculous to speculate when you have no events or information that can substantiate your speculation, and continue in a flawed logical progression even in the face of evidence contrary to your speculation, which you ignore or dismiss in favor of your illogical conclusion.

That is ridiculous.


I'm not satisfied with either response, as it lacks honesty.


Honesty. OK, here's honesty: It is possible for a lodge to go "rogue." It is entirely possible that a lodge of masons (or even a few Masons in the lodge) could "conspire" to some effect. What that effect would be I don't know, but I suppose it could be anything. In reality, now that I think on it, it happens all the time. We conspire to have roast beef and pay our bills every month.


My point is, any kind of "conspiracy" like you (and others) suggest would only be possible, in Masonry, at the local level. The lodges operate autonomously. Every year the DDGM (District Deputy Grand Master) stops by the lodges to look at the books and ensure the "landmarks" are being observed. So in reality, if anyone in the lodge were diverting funds or anything like that, they would eventually be held accountable by the Grand Lodge and risk losing their Charter and/or being expelled to a man.

On a national or worldwide level, while I suppose it is possible for Masons from different places to meet and "conspire;" to what effect? The Grand Lodges operate independently of one another, so there can be no policies or "orders" passed down to them (GL's) from anyone, even the United Grand Lodge of England, the Grandmama of them all.

So please -- forgive my sarcasm. You cannot be expected to understand this because you have your mind already made up as to what Masonry is and what it is about and what it is capable of. Until you are able to listen without prejudice and weigh the facts and consider the sheer improbablility of what you propose vs. the possibility of what you propose, I believe we are at an impasse.

Unless, of course, you have something to substantiate your speculation.


Also, one liners are against site posting guidelines. Thanks.


Why don't we focus on the topic and let the newly assigned plethora of Moderators do their jobs here, hmm?

"Discuss the topic, not the members."



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 01:00 PM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


I will repost a comment of mine.. and perhaps it can answer your question. As confusing as it sounds, Masonry its self cannot be used in a conspiracy


Ok honestly.. I don't think my response was of a good enough caliber to what you are asking and even deserve.. I will try and explain it in another angle.

Conspiracies revolve around Masonry.. not Freemasons.. but Masonry.

So one should ask "what is Masonry?" .... and if answering this, all Masonic conspiracies SHOULD go away.

Freemasonry is not a "thing" .. It is not an entity like a Corporation is an entity, or like a religious institution is an entity.

What is the boundaries and what makes up the "concept" Freemasonry?

Freemasonry is the ritual.. the literal words, the literal acting out of the rituals. Nothing more. The people .. they are the Lodge, and the Lodge coincides with Masonic teachings, but is not in and of its self Freemasonry..

Because Freemasonry is a Philosophy see.. so to say Freemasonry is a "thing" and that people "use it" for an agenda is impossible.. because it holds no physical form, and because it is not an entity to be used.. it is not a structured governing bureaucracy. Its .. an idea. And this idea holds no limitations to what someone can think of it.. everyones perception is greatly different.

So we have this idea, which is Masonry.. the ritual, is Masonry. The government of Freemasonry is not Masonry its self, but a preservation of Freemasonry.. they essentially run the system to keep it in check to preserve to the best of their ability the teachings of Masonry.. which directly to a Lodge of Freemasons is "inspections" on rituals.. which is Masonry.

If someone meets under the disguise of Freemasonry for an activity that does not relate to the initiation or usage of a degree.. they are not acting in a Masonic fashion, do not represent Masonry and are not partaking in any Masonic function.

Institutions that coincide with Masonry, such as our homes and charities are not Freemasonry.. they are the implementation by a Lodge or Lodges or Freemasons to utilize the Freemason ideas - the philosophy - and because they do, these are actions in a Masonic manor and represent Masonic teachings, and are thus Masonic.

Taking over the world, or conspiring to generate wealth do not use, pertain to or in any way have connections with the Masonic rituals, teachings, ideas, or upkeep of the Ritual in lodge.. and so they have absolutely nothing to do with Masonry.

If they are Freemasons acting like this, they act in a Personal way that is detached from Masonry.. they may be bad people, or good people with a warped sense of reality, but they represent them selves and the collective ideologies of the group.. but not Masonry.

Masonry cannot be used as a tool for anything but a Masonic function, which would be ritualistic work and teachings. Masonry cannot be used to guide people into certain ways of life that would involve crime or any other immoral action because the teachings are universal, and all lodges under the Grand Lodge must act in accordance.. any straying from this is not in accordance with Freemasonry.

If anything, you could say it may be a scapegoat, but nothing more.

Those who say we teach satanic teachings and brainwash people to be evil simply do not care to understand "what freemasonry is" .. which is sad.

But I hope this helps you understand what I mean.

And as I said, this is only one opinion, some may or may not agree with everything I say, but I feel for the most part I am right.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by ConspiracyNut23

I recommend you reread your own OP if you believe my post to be irrelevant. You claim that the "higher level" can somehow manipulate the "lower levels"...


I don't 'believe' anything. Thanks for attempting to pigeonhole my discussion as a dogmatic statement though


I am sometimes bewildered by the Masons ability to use quotation marks for things like higher and lower levels. When you have so many members swaggering about professing themselves to be Second Degree, Third Degree, Masters etc.


And then when the topic of ranking comes up they act as if it's some alien concept. Yes, the 'higher level' or higher ranking individual will always have influence of lower ranking compartments, and if this concept seems odd to Masons I must again ask whether or not we are existing in the same reality.

There is no need to dissect our 'beliefs' on Masonry, as we are not members nor do we believe we have knowledge of the inner workings of any conspiracy. This is a conspiracy forum where we will continue to discuss Masonry as we see fit.

The real occult and 'conspiratorial' influence in Masonry has nothing to do with you lot
We non-masons ( or is it 'anti-masons'
) are aware of this, yet we continue to interact with you Masons as if your input is relevant to the greater conspiracy (which it is not). That's the situation as I see it.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 03:28 PM
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posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 03:53 PM
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posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 04:20 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
I understand that defending a shaky position is difficult, but you could at least try.


Yikes. I guess 20+ pages of discussion wasn't enough 'trying' for you? What a ridiculous statement to make after all of that nonsense.

You could have shortened that post by a whole page and still have made your point. Yes, you think I am defending my right to speculate and post conspiracies a little too fervently, I get it. Unfortunately, you continue to post off-topic nonsense. You may think it helps to throw in a paragraph about the subject of compartmentalized secrecy, but it really doesn't hide that ugly blemish of your page long quote-by-quote rhetorts...

This thread has been devoured by the pitbull behavior of Masons from page one, but it is an old thread, and now that the Masons are being put in check, I hope someday another non-mason will come across my thread and have some input.


[edit on 21-2-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 04:24 PM
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posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 04:54 PM
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posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 04:56 PM
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Everyone, please be aware of our efforts to ensure discussion in this forum remains on-point and not on each other.



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by SkepticOverlord
 


That's what I was trying to do here, boss.

So, NewWorldOver: are we done here, or will you address my points that are relative to the topic at hand?

Edit to add: You know what? Forget it. If I'm going to be censored and docked 1000 points for nothing then there is no use in posting at all.

Have a blast with your one-sided "discussions." I have better things to do.

[edit on 2/21/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Feb, 21 2008 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
Freemasonry is not a "thing" .. It is not an entity like a Corporation is an entity, or like a religious institution is an entity.

Sir, you have demonstrated that you are seeking to engage in deliberate deception, as referenced in your comments I highlighted in this page of this thread -- www.abovetopsecret.com...

Your statements there were rather definitive in nature, yet completely so completely wrong we can only assume your intent is to deceive.

That being said, how can we be expected to trust your commentary on these Masonry-related matters?



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