Masonry and Compartmentalized Secrecy - Not So Easy To Dismiss

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posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 02:19 AM
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To the anti-"anti-masons" ;

Being a mason yourself doesn't actually give you the authority to say there is nothing going on behind closed doors. Lower level masons are not a part of anything but the lower circle and are exposed to the formal , ritual and social aspects - people who subscribe to the mason theory believe that there are higher levels involving more influential people and 'different' rituals which I won't mention. Of course - this is all conjecture or hearsay from supposed 'leads' by someone who knew a Mason. There has been no substantiation.


In either case, a lower level Mason , even at the supposed 3rd level or 'top' tier, will claim there are no higher levels, no secrets unknown to them etc. despite the fact that the mechanics of a secret society already negates them. Being a secret society within a fraternity is not some far out, grand conspiracy, and it is not at all difficult for the 'anti-masons' to imagine that the lower level or 'public' arm of masonry is not the real source of masonic influence. A lower level masons word is just as trustworthy as a person off the street when it comes to a legitimate secret society. Need-to-know-basis is a cornerstone of the occult and is also used by the military to keep out lower levels and even higher ranking members. God knows the secrets we hear about from whistle-blowers are beyond sensitive.

So,

it's not that we don't believe you. But the theory of masonry itself is that lower levels are not going to disclose or even be aware of the manipulations of higher levels. That is the nature of secret society hierarchies. It is irresponsible to say that because you are a member of the lower level or 'public relations' of a fraternal club, that you are at all privelege to inner-workings of higher rankings, which would be totally unknown to you.

So, despite what other masons say, we believe there are secrets that do not involve the public arm of masonry. And while masons may fight the good fight for the reputation of their organization, they will never 'win' the battle of conspiratorial debate. In the paradigm of secret societies and conspiracies, a lower level has very little influence over the grand scheme of things, and we know this. We don't claim 'everything' to be a conspiracy, but I understand how easy it is for Masons to throw their arms up and say they are being prosecuted by conspiracy nuts etc. Regardless, they don't have the authority to change our minds.




posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 03:38 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


Could you give an example of a way the "higher levels" could possible control the "lower levels" without them being aware of the fact?

What kind of policies could they enact without the lower level masons knowing?

For example, say the higher levels wanted the lower levels to worship Satan, could they do that without the lower levels being aware of it?

Say they wanted all 6 million masons to help cover-up the Enron fiasco, how would that be done? Could they help cover up UFOs?

Through what mechanism could the higher levels control the lower levels?

[edit on 30/12/07 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 03:42 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
And while masons may fight the good fight for the reputation of their organization, they will never 'win' the battle of conspiratorial debate.


There can be little doubt that masonry will never win the battle against conspiracy theorists. This is due to the very nature of the battle: masons are in a defensive position, all of the time. We do not make up conspiracy theories about our own organization, and every shred of experience we have in the fraternity consistently points to no conspiracy existing. Concurrently, there is nothing in our role as masons that compels us to attack other groups of people for their characteristics.

There are interesting group dynamics going on here. I do not know of any group of masons or the institution itself coalescing to launch attacks against anyone else's affiliation - whether it be religious, civic, fraternal, etc. This is simply not the nature of masonry, so no one in the fraternity does this in their role as a mason. Any time masons are working together on conspiracy theories is when we are forced in defensive positions but even then it occurs by accident, such as on this board. I did not know any of the other Brethren here until I stumbled on this website. On the other side you've got conspiracy theorists who often DO coalesce or at least work together informally to find conspiracies against masonry. There are people who literally do this for fun, as a hobby, and I suspect some people are doing it as a profession.

So, on the one side we have a group of people who often work together that are always on the attack mode (some of whom make careers out of masonic conspiracy), and never on the defense mode because the "opposition" does not attack them. On the other side we have masons who don't work together to make conspiracies against anyone's characteristics in their roles as masons, and but are constantly attacked and accused of a huge range of conspiracies involving all manner of atrocities.

Given these group dynamics, it is no wonder that fireworks often occurs. As you demonstrate in this post, masons are told as a group that they do not know what's really going on in their own organization by people who admittedly are not members of the organization and whose theories are unsubstantiated and lacking of any hard evidence. This board has all manner of masons - from people considering becoming masons (being prepared in their heart, they are not technically masons) to 33rd degree scottish rite masons. We are consistently told that we have no idea about our own organization, regardless of our many years of combined experience. A combined experience which suggests absolutely no conspiracy and hints at absolutely nothing about "upper level masons."

We will lose this battle always, because we are not the ones attacking, and we don't fight back. We do not create threads picking at a characteristic of the conspiracy theorists and making up our own conspiracies. We could make up posts about how the Anti-Masons are part of some NWO cabal to control the world. We could. We could put up websites, make wikipedia articles. We could, but we won't. We defend ourselves from people who are attacking the institution, and we do not retaliate.

And I'm fine with that, because it speaks volumes about the virtues of masonry.

[edit on 30-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 03:47 AM
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You're an aethiest? Then why are you even concerned with Freemasonry if you do not even believe in a "Supreme Being"?

BTW, my hero is Jesus Christ. He's actually the Original Superman.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 04:01 AM
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reply to post by spirit7
 


I'm assuming you're speaking to me. I'm not only an atheist, I'm also a conspiracy theorist, and that is why I am concerned with Masonry. I believe it is an obvious red herring that many conspiracy theorists fall for. we are not ruled by masons.

IMO, we are ruled, but the masons have absolutely nothing to do with it in the present century.

Btw, why don't you check out this forum or even this forum rather than attempt to change every thread on ATS into a religious debate.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 04:07 AM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


Ah, I knew that you were leading to somewhere with this. Fair enough. When Christians are told to worship a supreme being without the mention of Jesus Christ, I have a problem with that. My religous debate with "the craft" is valid. The conspiracy here being lucifer behind the scenes of freemasonry.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 04:08 AM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


I believe the belief in the "higher levels" might be a reminiscent of 18th century Strict Observance Masonry, who received supposedly "secret teachings" from their "Unknown Superiors." (a term the Illuminati borrowed)

Possibly some of the first "masonic degree mills" who claimed to be the teachers and keepers of "real masonry". Just a theory of course, but still possible.


[edit on 30/12/07 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 04:36 AM
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I don't think there is any agenda other then the craft getting people to mock their religions for the amusement of Satan whom wants to be god or a god.

If it's really only a fraternity then ask yourself this, why does the bible have to be present and why does God have to be referred to as a supreme being? A Christian should acknowledge Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, yet there is no mention of this, only that there is a supreme being. Would you not think that Lucifer would be more then happy to erase Jesus from the record books so that he can amuse himself and think that he is the god of this world?

[edit on 30-12-2007 by spirit7]

[edit on 30-12-2007 by spirit7]



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by spirit7
BTW, my hero is Jesus Christ. He's actually the Original Superman.


My hero is Batman- he doesn't judge anyone while doing good deeds. He just kicks butt using awesome weapons and gadgets.


In fact, I often ask myself WWBWD??


[edit on 30-12-2007 by corsig]



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by NewWorldOver
 


OP, you raise good points, and I can't disagree with any of them. I've been a member of a church, member of the military, and member of a corporation.

Every single one of those organizations I was a member of, had me in a highly compartmentalized position, only understanding a small microcosm that made up my own role, oblivious (by design) of the other workings within the group.

This is for many reasons. Mainly because you don't want to rely on any one person that it cripples others, and also to prevent disgruntled members from exposing anything outside of what they were allowed to know.

It's not so hard to believe there are smaller cliques within bigger ones. It's just a question of how many steps there are until you get to that last clique, and how many people are in it. It doesn't have to be exclusive to freemasonry at all. It's exclusive to human nature. It just happens to be a kick in the pants when it infiltrates freemasonry.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 10:12 AM
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Originally posted by spirit7
Ah, I knew that you were leading to somewhere with this. Fair enough. When Christians are told to worship a supreme being without the mention of Jesus Christ, I have a problem with that.


spirit7,

This is where you fall short in understanding Freemasonry. We (Masons) are not "told to worship" PERIOD. There IS NO worship in the Freemasonic degrees (ceremonies). There are philosophical teachings, to be sure, but no "worship" We are NOT a religion.

As a Christian, I worship Christ. When I pray, I pray to Christ.

I (unlike some) do not try to force my beliefs on others.

It simply is not my place to do that. Nor should anyone try to force his or her faith on ME; inside or outside my Fraternity.

Everyone is free to his or her own personal faith--whether or not I agree with that faith doesn't enter into the equation.



My religous debate with "the craft" is valid.


Actually it's not. Freemasonry is not a religion, nor a substitute for religion. Never has been--never will be. Therefore there IS no "religious debate" with Freemasonry.



The conspiracy here being lucifer behind the scenes of freemasonry.


Only in the minds of certain anti-Masons and religious fanatics (see the silly Ephesians 5:11 web-site for voluminous examples)



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 10:36 AM
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reply to post by ConspiracyNut23
 


Ever heard of the term, "Embedded command?"

As for Satan worship, Eliphas Levi in his works on the Qabalah stated the spirit of the antichrist was to refuse to turn the other cheek and fight back when attacked, to permit wrongdoing when one could prevent it, to be angry, to refuse to forgive, to fight. Essentially, to reject the humble and meek spirit of Jesus and opt to support violent whether on the mental or physical plane, regardless of whether it was in self-defense or otherwise. Jesus didn't fight back when attacked, nor swear oaths which could result in permitting evil, nor keep secrets.

Not that any of these things are bad to me personally, I am trying to see this from a Christian standpoint, as I believe a Freemason who comes to this point should just drop the bible out of his life, were they incompatible as the fundies claim.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 11:34 AM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
To the anti-"anti-masons" ;

Being a mason yourself doesn't actually give you the authority to say there is nothing going on behind closed doors.


Neither does it allow others to post unsubstantiated allegations regarding the Institution.


Lower level masons are not a part of anything but the lower circle and are exposed to the formal , ritual and social aspects - people who subscribe to the mason theory believe that there are higher levels involving more influential people and 'different' rituals which I won't mention.


Have you ever noticed that all conspiracy theorists refer to supposed 'higher level rituals' but never report any details when queeried? Ever consider why this occurs?


Of course - this is all conjecture or hearsay from supposed 'leads' by someone who knew a Mason. There has been no substantiation.


That is because it is very difficult to prove the existence of something non-existent.


In either case, a lower level Mason , even at the supposed 3rd level or 'top' tier,


There is nothing supposed. We are all 3rd degree Master Masons, there is nothing higher regardless of what you may believe.


will claim there are no higher levels, no secrets unknown to them etc. despite the fact that the mechanics of a secret society already negates them.


I supposed if I was actuall in a secret society this might apply, but we are not so it does not.


Being a secret society within a fraternity is not some far out, grand conspiracy, and it is not at all difficult for the 'anti-masons' to imagine that the lower level or 'public' arm of masonry is not the real source of masonic influence.


And many of these people also believe in holographic planes, reptilians and a fake moon landing as well.


A lower level masons word is just as trustworthy as a person off the street when it comes to a legitimate secret society.


Really? I think the word of a Mason in regards Masonry is much more easily digestable then a non-Mason. Whether you choose to accept it is the crucial issue. Any disbeliever is able to join and assertain if what we are reporting is true or not. It is far easier for some to make outlandish accusations then to join our Fraternity and perhaps endeavor to help others in the community with ones acts of charity and kindness.


Need-to-know-basis is a cornerstone of the occult and is also used by the military to keep out lower levels and even higher ranking members. God knows the secrets we hear about from whistle-blowers are beyond sensitive.


Run across any legitimate Masonic 'whistleblowers' lately? It is difficult to blow the whistle on nothing.


So,

it's not that we don't believe you. But the theory of masonry itself is that lower levels are not going to disclose or even be aware of the manipulations of higher levels.


The opperative word in that sentence being 'theory'.


That is the nature of secret society hierarchies. It is irresponsible to say that because you are a member of the lower level or 'public relations' of a fraternal club, that you are at all privelege to inner-workings of higher rankings, which would be totally unknown to you.


This is a generalization fallacy that you choose to apply to the situation. Not all heirarchies have conditions similar to the ones you attribute to them. The 'inner-workings' of every Grand Lodge is highly transparent. Our dues can be easily traced to their final disbursement and the direction of our Grand Lodge is determined by an open reckoning at our Grand Lodge annual meeting were we as indivdual Masons vote on the direction we desire our Lodge to undertake. Very little policy is determined behind closed doors and as of yet I have not disagreed with the course pro-offered by past Grand Masters and their staff.


So, despite what other masons say, we believe there are secrets that do not involve the public arm of masonry.


What are they? Please tell me where I can learn more about them.


And while masons may fight the good fight for the reputation of their organization, they will never 'win' the battle of conspiratorial debate.


True, because there will always be some paranoid indivdual who can not cope with the fact that they can not know everything about everyone.


In the paradigm of secret societies and conspiracies, a lower level has very little influence over the grand scheme of things, and we know this.


The caveat being that if the group in question is actually not secret and transparent. Masonry, contrarily, is both.


We don't claim 'everything' to be a conspiracy, but I understand how easy it is for Masons to throw their arms up and say they are being prosecuted by conspiracy nuts etc. Regardless, they don't have the authority to change our minds.


We are not here to change anyones mind, we are here to defend ourselves against wild accusations and to correct the errors of those less informed. Whether they choose to accept our presentations and assertions and change their own mind is truly up to them.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by niteipvvvvv
Not that any of these things are bad to me personally, I am trying to see this from a Christian standpoint, as I believe a Freemason who comes to this point should just drop the bible out of his life, were they incompatible as the fundies claim.


Shouldn't this be true of anyone though who purports to embrace the teachings of Jesus Christ? Why should a freemason be the only one held to this scrutiny?

I am sure that all Christians, including the Amish, face contradictions in their daily life with the teachings of Christ. All Christian teachings are interpretations, most practicing Christians rely on a Priest or Pastor to tell them what the bible means. The words and teachings of Christ are by no means set in stone. Most modern Christianities are based on the orthodoxy or 'right belief'. Freemasonry on the other hand is based upon orthopraxy or 'right practice'. As such I can see no reason, other than a lack of understanding of those practices, that results in any contradiction of beliefs.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 06:56 PM
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Originally posted by LightinDarkness
There can be little doubt that masonry will never win the battle against conspiracy theorists. This is due to the very nature of the battle: masons are in a defensive position, all of the time.


That's just the thing, you aren't responsible for the defense of a secret society. It exists within a standing institution that you happen to be a part of. As I have said before, a secret society exists outside the influence of any organization, which negates the involvement of 'regular' members.

If I declare this to be a possibility, and you find the need to rule that possibility out for the sake of reputation/loyalty to masonry etc. - what conclusions am I going to come to?



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by scientist


OP, you raise good points, and I can't disagree with any of them.

It's not so hard to believe there are smaller cliques within bigger ones. It's just a question of how many steps there are until you get to that last clique, and how many people are in it.


You're right, it really isn't so hard to understand the concept of compartmentalized societies, or 'secret societies'. The hierarchy of occult control is lost to alot of the pseudo-intellectual mentalities you come across in such societies. I won't mention any names, but you can see that many masons throw about word-play as if it's a form of combat. To them, it's not a matter of seeing different perspectives, it's about vanquishing all perspectives outside their constructed notions of reality (i.e. maintaining the status quo, something vital to society and secret societies and their control of subordinates). It is none of their business speaking of secret societies within their organization, it is however their business to rid the society of 'conspiracy theories'. Essentially, they are dead weight in conspiratorial debate because they do not grasp the concept :

No, it is not hard to understand the concept of compartmentalized secret societies. It is the structure of society, the military, and occult organizations - denying it because you are a member of the society, military, etc. is nothing unexpected.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by NewWorldOver
That's just the thing, you aren't responsible for the defense of a secret society. It exists within a standing institution that you happen to be a part of. As I have said before, a secret society exists outside the influence of any organization, which negates the involvement of 'regular' members.
If I declare this to be a possibility, and you find the need to rule that possibility out for the sake of reputation/loyalty to masonry etc. - what conclusions am I going to come to?


I for one am simply curious as to how you concluded all this. You say "it exists within a standing institution [Masonry] that you happen to be a part of."

How do you know this to be fact, when no facts exist to back it up, only hearsay?

It seems logical that this is so, therefore it is so? Someone said it's so, therefore it is so?

It's been said here on ATS over and over, but for the sake of understanding where you get your...uhm...facts...I'll say it again.

How is it that we, the active participating MEMBERS of the Masonic Fraternity are too stupid to know that this "inner circle" controls us, yet you outsiders know all about it?

Just doesn't make sense. No matter how many times you say it.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 07:23 PM
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reply to post by LightinDarkness
 


Hey LnD, do you know who Bob Kraft is? He's the owner of the New England Patriots and is seen in this photo shaking hands with his coach Bill Bellicheck. Anyway, I noticed how his thumb is bent, does that look like a possible masonic handshake to you? Not a bait, just curious. Thanks man.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com...



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 07:27 PM
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Originally posted by Appak
How is it that we, the active participating MEMBERS of the Masonic Fraternity are too stupid to know that this "inner circle" controls us, yet you outsiders know all about it?


Nobody called you stupid. This is a strawman victimization act that I see from Masons too often. "Oh I guess we're all too stupid to see any of this." Not at all. You have plenty of reasons for not wanting to see it or even look at the possibility of it. And you stick to that mind-set in EVERY mason thread.

When you ask me for proof, I'm just going to point you to the top of the thread and ask you to read again. The masonry S.S. theory originates with whistle blowers and other conspiracy theorists or former members : asking me for evidence concerning this theory is just more mason protectionism and I won't bother with it. This thread is about the possibility of compartmentalized secret societies, especially those that exist within fraternal or brotherhood societies.

This is a conspiracy theory forum. Please, either open your minds, or admit that you're protecting your organization from conspiracy.



posted on Dec, 30 2007 @ 07:32 PM
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Originally posted by spirit7
Hey LnD, do you know who Bob Kraft is? He's the owner of the New England Patriots and is seen in this photo shaking hands with his coach Bill Bellicheck. Anyway, I noticed how his thumb is bent, does that look like a possible masonic handshake to you? Not a bait, just curious. Thanks man.

sportsillustrated.cnn.com...


Asking a mason about things like secret handshakes is like asking an indian to do a warcry for you. They're not going to take you seriously, instead, more likely to use the theory of secret handshakes as ammo against 'crazy conspiracy theorists'. This concerns all aspects of the masonry conspiracy - easily turned back on the entire theory to make it seem implausible or silly.





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