rottweiler Ban? more control?

Family dog kills one-year-old boy

news.bbc.co.uk...

A one-year-old boy has died after being attacked by a pet rottweiler at his grandparents' home, police have said.
Archie-Lee Andrew Hirst was snatched from his seven-year-old aunt's arms in the yard of the house in Chald Lane, Wakefield, West Yorkshire, on Friday.

He was taken to hospital with serious injuries but died later.

The "seven to 10 stone" dog was shot at the scene by a police marksman. It was destroyed to ensure the safety of others there, a police spokesman said

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news.bbc.co.uk...
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with rottweiler attacks happening even more frequently should more control be put on these dogs?

more protection for the public and people that have to live with and around the dogs.

or should breading of these dogs be stopped and banned from being brought into the country.

Just remember. It's never, ever the owner's fault. Despite the fact that a dog's temperament and behavior is a direct reflection on the treatment and training from its owner, it is the breed of the dog that is to blame, and nothing else. The millions of dogs belonging to or descended from "dangerous" breeds that never act aggressively are of course the anomaly, rather than the few dozen of them that do attack, who are of course the absolute standard. The far more common attacks from cute breeds should be totally disregarded as well.

I think that people should treat Dog's as the pack animal they are. Too many treat them like family members and this does not do well for the temperament of any Dog. They believe that they are in charge if a human does not stand up and become the Alpha male. This is where situations like this come from.

I looked after my sisters Rottweiler for a few weeks some years back and it was a right pain and poorly trained. Understanding the need for it to be dominated, I embarked on a programme designed to let the dog know, in no uncertain terms, that I am the boss and it will do what I say.

It resisted at first trying to bite me when it was being punished for crapping on the floor for the 10th time in a day, but after bopping it on the nose and controlling it with it's collar, it figured that, actually, this human is bigger and stronger than me.

My missus thought I was being cruel to it, but Dog's need to be stood up to, else they run riot. It used to crap wherever it liked, bark, snarl and was generally unpleasant to be around. We even took it for a 2 hour walk once, and it waited until we got back home to take a dump in my hallway as soon as we got in!!!

After 2 weeks of my brand of discipline, it treated me like the Alpha male and was nothing but submissive. Even now, a few years down the line, the animal will become submissive and docile in my presence.

Bottom line, ignore all these touchy feely animal rights types who do not know that Dog's are pack animals and as such, need stern, authoritative treatment and occasionally a physical punishment.

Just like kids at the end of the day, if you don't have an "ultimate sanction" and are unwilling to go there, at the end of the day you've lost. That doesn't mean you should use it, but having the option available is better than not having an option at all.

EDIT: To the above poster, it has nothing to do with the breed. The only difference between an aggressive Terrier and and aggressive Rottweiler is the size of the animal and it's ability to chew your face off. Trust me, if Terriers were bigger, they'd be a problem too.


[edit on 30/12/07 by stumason]

As a former vet tech in my high school days and my personal experience with rotts I have found the vast majority to be big overgrown sweethearts. That being said they are still animals. Bred in Germany to kill bear. Animals can be unpredictable. I don't care how sweet they seem to be, there always lies the potential for danger. What caused this dog to 'snap'?
Who knows. Pit bulls, rotts, dobs, among others can be like a loaded gun.
I am a dog lover. Have a black lab and a besengee, both rescues. They are much like my children. The joy they have brought me is undefinable.
Just the same they are animals. My lab has always been a little funny. There are certain people in the neighborhood he barks at like the devil. Most others, he wags his tail and and just watch pass by. The unpredictiveness is the problem. I have an eight foot wooden fort fence on my property. With latches and hooks on the two swing doors. Mostly because I have an inground pool. I have a million dollar umbrella policy rider in my insurance. When I walk them they are on stainless steel choker collars. They know I'm the alpha and they listen well to commands. But on one walk, this very strange hombre that I knew he hated by his barking in the house when this fellow trudged about was coming the opposite way on the street and at the last second, even to my subtle commands, he lunged at this bloke and it scared the hell out of me. Fortunately he did not make contact. I took him to the vets for a checkup the next day and explained the situation to the vet. I came a hair from putting him down. I couldn't do it. However, his leash got a lot shorter and he now wears a blunt hooked choker on walks. He is a liability. I exercise extreme caution with him. He is 12 now, his arthur is getting bad, and he probably only has a couple years left. He tagged me once two years old, getting a dead bird out of his mouth. Knowing what I know now. I'd have iced him.

reply to post by stumason


I was actually being extremely sarcastic... I sometimes forget it doesn't carry too well in text I'm one of those crazy fools that shelters rescued pit bulls, and the idea of "breed bans" steams my potato like little else. For the record, I'm also deep into animal rights. Proper and intelligent treatment of an animal is not abusive at all.

I always blame the owner for a bad dog. The way I figure it, there are three possible reasons for the dog being the way it is:
1) The owner got it from a bad breeder
2) The owner didn't know what they were getting into when they picked the breed
and 3) The owner was unable or unwilling to train the animal

#1: The worst place to get a dog is from the pet store, or from a "mass breeder" (aka puppy mills). Yet a number of people do just that. This results in dogs with genetic problems manifesting in physical pain and psychological problems, both which can lead to aggression and other problems. The two best sources for a dog are a reputable breeder, or a professional adoption program.

#2) Different breeds have different needs, even those that look superficially similar. For instance, I knew a family who got a dalmatian puppy for their little son's birthday. Apparently they thought the animal would be like they are in cartoons, or perhaps they imagined it would just be a spotty Labrador. What they got was a jittery, nippy, wreck of a dog that played very roughly (though not dangerously) with their child, and wound up spending several years tied to a tree in the back yard with little more to do than eat and poop. They simply didn't take into account the needs of the animal - frequent play and companionship with plenty of control, and a fair amount of privacy otherwise.

A similar problem is when people get the wrong dog for the job they want. Aside from fighting or bait dogs, the pit bulls I get most frequently are from families that wanted a guard dog. Because the pit bull has a "tough guy" image, a lot of people think it's a good guard dog. It's definitely not. They're absolute dopes when it comes to people. They also come saddled with a lot of the previous problems - they are nearly a hundred pounds of raw muscle with the nervous energy of any other terrier. Left unattended, a bored pit bull will tear your wicker furniture to sawdust in under an hour. Few people can handle such a strong and energetic dog correctly. Which leads to...

#3: Training is essential. Some breeds require more training than others, but every one of them can be trained to fill any role. The trick is, knowing what role you want, knowing the methods of training your breed, and lastly, being able to give them that training. If you want your animal to be a housepet, that's different training from if you want it to guard, or if you want it to hunt. While there is usually overlap, there needs to be focus on what you want the animal for. The methods of training a tight-wound, somewhat dim Doberman are going to be pretty different from training a laid-back but intelligent golden retriever. And finally, applying the training. I've seen people who beat their dogs, and call it "Training." These people are also known as assholes. While yeah, sometimes you do have to get physical with the animal, this usually only involves some wrestling, pressure, and maybe a bop or two on the nose. Most breeds don't even need that much.

The only thing a breed ban would accomplish is killing a lot of good dogs (mandatory euthanasia is enforced in those U.S. areas with a breed ban) and every dog of similar breeds, won't punish hte people behind hte "bad dogs", and will just make the #2 "dangerous" dog the new #!... resulting in another ban, no doubt.

Aahh, I get it TWF. My mistake not picking up on the allegory. I agree to a certain extent. Unfortunately pit bull fighting is big money on the east side of Cleveland and elsewhere. Some of these dogs that have been cofiscated hurl themselves at their cage doors in a frenzy if anything moves in front of them. I have also seen well behaved family pit bull pets. I believe they get the bad press because when they do get loose, especially more than one, they can rip a kid or an adult apart in minutes with the 2500 psi pressure jaws, more psi than an alligator. We have had at least three deaths from them in the last two years in these parts. And if anyone knows of any dogs tied to a tree in all kinds of weather I would strongly advise repeated calls to animal cruelty hotlines. Unfortunately, if the dog has food and water they really can't do anything. That kind of sh$# makes me nuts. I think I'd smuggle the dog out and find it a home if I could do so without getting shot. I know a friend at work who did just that.

[edit on 2-1-2008 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by jpm1602
And if anyone knows of any dogs tied to a tree in all kinds of weather I would strongly advise repeated calls to animal cruelty hotlines.
[edit on 2-1-2008 by jpm1602]

I take it you have no experience with sled teams? Careful with statements like this one. Few forces are as powerful as the cries of the ignorant. People who don't know anything about a particular subject should not be so quick to react over the subject they no little or nothing about.

Every bit of gun "ban" legislation has been penned by people steeped in firearms ignorance and I have no doubt that ridiculous attempts to "ban" scary dogs shares just as deep a coat of ignorance and is being championed by ignorants who have learned all they think they have to know from sensationalistic news stories designed to sell ad space, nightmares or because a big dog barked at them when they were 8 years old.

This same fear and ignorance respectively coupled with holier than thou self-righteousness and financial gain kept the slaves in chains in this country as long as they were. Remember when popular thought was that freeing them from their uncivil African lifestyle was a moral and dignified cause championed by the masses of idiots led by the profiteers?

This, like ALL bans, taxes, regulations, etc.... is absolutely no different.

Let a few "leaders" rally the ignorant and next thing you know we're all under some oligarchy that demands we toil at gun point and suggests we eat cake if we're so hungry.

reply to post by stumason


I think Stu has an excellent point. Dogs are, at the end of the day, animals. Domesticated animals are extraordinarily patient and gentle compared with their wild cousins, but they nevertheless can be violent or vicious.

I don't support a ban on certain breeds of dog, but I do think people should take it upon themselves to understand what they're letting themselves in for by getting a pet (be it a dog, cat, hamster, goldfish, snake... whatever). Breeders too should be very careful as to who they give more 'vicious' types of dog to - they should be well within their rights to refuse to give one of their puppies to someone if they think said type of animal is inappropriate or won't be properly cared for.

Laws and government don't even need to be brought into this, really. People just need to use their common sense a bit more.

To thisguyisrightthere. Obviously you are quick to lay judgement and vitreolic condemnation. I have seen animals kept tied to trees for years with very little interaction other than laying out food or water. I read call of the wild and very read up on sled and working dogs. Apples and oranges. To some yahoo who just leaves 'dog' tied to tree with no hope, no play, no interaction. I think you have me confused with some PETA tree hugger who cries when dogs don't get their nails clipped. Ignorant, no. Caring, yes.
Best regards,
John

[edit on 2-1-2008 by jpm1602]

Of course, there are two tragedies here. The loss of a young child and of a dog.

I would certainly agree with the posters that a great deal of how any animal behaves is a product of three things:

1) The breed
2) What they are bred to do
3) How we humans train and interact with them

It seems that many people do not understand where the dog comes from and what over the centuries we have done with breeding to get them to where they are today.

The dog was a wild animal that over time started to co-exist with humans and it is highly likely that dogs who were very aggressive where driving away by humans so that over time, the less aggressive dogs bred and co-existed more closely with humans.

Stumason makes a very good point. Dogs are pack animals and need to know and understand there place in the herd. I am sure some would accuse Stumason on being cruel but Stumason was only doing what the alpha male in the pack would do. Establish the pecking order and smack down any challenger to the leadership of the alpha male.

If the press stories are to be believed, this animal was being kept outside of the home and that someone showed the little child the dog that then got hold of the child.

Finally on to the point of the thread. Should there be more control?

If people want to keep dogs such as rottweilers then they should be licensed and before that license is granted they should be inspected and tested to ensure that can keep the animal in a safe manner and understand that they are getting a dog that in the past has been bred for aggression. I fully accept Stumason's point that even today, his sister's dog remembers when he is in the room who the alpha male is. But stumason is not with the dog all the time and when he is not there, does the dog thing it is the alpha male?

Of course, a licensing system would cost money and need enforcement. And who would decide which dogs needed this kind of license control. And of course, how do you prevent breeding been driven underground.

And where does this stop?

How many people are killed in accidents involving horses? Are we going to say they are dangerous? What about cats? Just small lions?

Better still, we need to educate people that some animals just do not make good pets.

One of the big problems with breed controls, is the fact that an animal breed is not set in stone. It's not like a model of car or a make of a gun or something. Like all animals, there's some pretty wide genetic variations even within the group.

For instance, a few cities here in the states - Denver, I believe, is one of them - have a breed ban on "pit bulls". The trouble is, what is a pit bull? You can line up an Irish Staffordshire Terrier, an American Pit Bull Terrier, an American Bull Dog, and a Presa Canario, and most people would be unable to tell the difference. Yet the three breeds have very different temperaments and behaviors. And then there's mongrels to consider.