Do Not Watch This Video...

reply to post by LightinDarkness

You do realize if no one profited off your decisions that there would be no credit and no loans? No one would be able to own a house, and you would not be able to ever buy anything that you do not have the resources for. That IS the big picture. You may want a world like that, but I - and others - do not.

And yes, by my logic you should do just that: spend money on what you can afford. That's it.

I don't see this contradiction as logical.

Credit lenders have predatory practices, particularly toward young people and college students. They like college students because they smell easy profits like like a ahrk smells blood. The credit companies know that many of these college students will be covered by their parents when they default. And if not, they will have these students enslaved with high interest for decades, if not for life. Well after these students come to realize they have become victims of the slickest salesmanship going.

Credit cards are not being used for non-essential items. To understand the tough decisions Americans are facing today, I submit the following statistics from www.nccbuscc.org...:

Budgeting for Poverty

The federal government says a family of four earning $19,971 or less a year is living in poverty.

But how far does $19,971 go in America today? How do you budget? What do you leave out?

You make the hard choices.

Housing? In America, a family of four earning less than $19,971 a year
will spend on average $5,478 annually for the most basic of shelter.

$19,971
- 5,478
14,493

Utilities? To keep a family of four warm and secure, the average expense for utilities and public services runs $2,371 a year.

$14,493
- 2,371
12,122

Transportation? A family at the poverty line will spend $5,005 a year to own and maintain a used car, and fill it with the gas and oil needed to go to work, to day care, to the store, wherever.

$12,122
- 5,005
7,117

Food? Even with public assistance such as food stamps, families
making less than $19,971 will spend $4,139 a year for food
at home and away.

$7,117
- 4,139
2,978

Health Care? Even if an employer contributes part of the costs of health
insurance, a family of four at the poverty line would still pay on average $2,139 for health and medical expenses. The cost of not having health insurance, however, could be devastating.

$2,978
- 2,139
839

Child Care? The costs in a metropolitan-area child care center for two
children five and under can reach over $13,000. Even with child care subsidies, low income families with two small children will spend on average $2,440 on child care annually.

$839
- 2,440
- 1,601

So now you’re $1,601 over budget, and you still don’t have
everything you need.

What do you leave out?

Toiletries, School Supplies, Shoes, Clothes, Holiday Gifts,
Education, Life Insurance, Furnishings, Recreation, Cleaning
Supplies, Entertainment, Birthday Gifts
These are the decisions that people are forced to make every day
when they live in the state of poverty.

Visit www.povertyusa.org to learn more.

Source of Statistics:
Rent, utilities, transportation, food, health care: Consumer Expenditures Survey,
U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, April 2006;
Child care: Expenditures on Children by Families, United States Department of
Agriculture, Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion, April 2006
Poverty threshold: U.S. Census Bureau, Income, Poverty, and Health Insurance
Coverage in the United States: 2005



[edit on 12/19/0707 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by jackinthebox


You should have the option available to spend what you can't afford - but that doesn't mean that you SHOULD do it. Just that you should have that option.

Its called freedom to do what you want, even if what you do harms yourself. No contradiction at all.

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Credit lenders have predatory practices, particularly toward young people and college students. They like college students because they smell easy profits like like a ahrk smells blood. The credit companies know that many of these college students will be covered by their parents when they default. And if not, they will have these students enslaved with high interest for decades, if not for life. Well after these students come to realize they have become victims of the slickest salesmanship going.

Predatory practices? Oh, you mean offering someone a product and giving them all the terms and conditions of the product, and letting them choose to buy the product or not. I guess thats predatory now. I would agree that they do this on purpose - but if college students are not intelligent enough to not read what they sign or understand that credit cards do not equal free money, that is no ones fault but the college student.

The real reason why they go to college campuses is because credit card company research has shown people generally stick with the first credit card they get. If you get a college student to sign up for your card, they will generally keep it and use it for a lifetime. I signed up for lots of credit cards in college. I have six figures of available credit. Do you know how much of that is in the form of a balance due to the company? $0. Perhaps I should have played stupid and spent money I didn't have, because then I could blame it all on the big bad company...

Doesn't slavery required force? Let me check the dictionary..yep - requires force. Signing up for credit cards is not forced, college students consent, and they are provided with all of the terms of the credit agreement before they sign. So much for enslavement.

Try as you might, you cannot make credit card companies to be evil overlords and blot out the reality that at some people people must be responsible for their personal choices. Especially college kids where - as you so rightfully said - most people are still leeching off their parents and have no need for carrying balances on credit at all, unless they want to live a lifestyle they cannot afford.

reply to post by jackinthebox


Credit cards are being used for non-essential items. It's a fact. Would you like to say that no one ever buys anything on credit that they don't need? Surely, everyone who drives a BMW NEEDS that car, don't they? Surely, everyone who buys name brand clothes NEEDS name brand clothes, right?

I also find it amusing you submit information from a religious non-profit that has obvious liberal leanings. The flaw in the methodology is obvious: they are taking a poverty level and subtracting "average" expenditures - which are average expenditures for all income levels. Obviously, people of higher incomes spend more money on things like food, or have "higher quality" child care. To be accurate would require examining what people in poverty actually spend, and not the average for all Americans. But then we would find the vast majority of people in poverty do not need to live on credit, even though it may be rough. But that wouldnt bode well for your ideology.

Not to mention this completely ignores the reality that a supermajority of Americans are not in poverty, and the percentage of people in poverty overall is falling.

By the way jack, don't you believe all government statistics are being made up? Didn't you support someone who said that in another thread? Then why do you cite them now as proof? Talk about not being consistent...

[edit on 19-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by LightinDarkness

By the way jack, don't you believe all government statistics are being made up? Didn't you support someone who said that in another thread? Then why do you cite them now as proof? Talk about not being consistent...

That's the second time you have accused me of saying something I did not say. Get your facts straight, and then maybe you will understand what everyone else seems to already Doc.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


I don't know about other states, but here in NY the practices by credit card companies on campus have been declared predatory in state legislature. Legal measures are now being taken to end those practices.

reply to post by LightinDarkness

I also find it amusing you submit information from a religious non-profit that has obvious liberal leanings. The flaw in the methodology is obvious: they are taking a poverty level and subtracting "average" expenditures - which are average expenditures for all income levels. Obviously, people of higher incomes spend more money on things like food, or have "higher quality" child care. To be accurate would require examining what people in poverty actually spend, and not the average for all Americans. But then we would find the vast majority of people in poverty do not need to live on credit, even though it may be rough. But that wouldnt bode well for your ideology

The raw statistics were found in the sources provided, regardless of who presented them, liberal or otherwise.

Are you suggesting that people who are not in poverty pay more for utitlites? For gasoline?

I'd like to know where I could find an apartment for $450 a month.

reply to post by LightinDarkness



Why is it that whenever someone provides you with data you keep asking for you always claim there is "flawed methodolgy" or somesuch, but refuse to believe that your own sources may be manipulating the figures as well?

What good is it to show statistics that poverty is falling, when the poverty line is kept artificially low and do not include anyone who makes a single dollar more per year than the official level?

reply to post by jackinthebox


LOL, the only thing "everyone" understands is that you have no evidence for anything you say. I suggest you remember what you type. Its hard to make up conspiracies when you do stuff like this:

In response to a post that said:

...the government has been giving false data ...

You stated:

Originally posted by jackinthebox
Must agree with what you have said.

Oopsie! You should really watch yourself there.

As someone who has stated that everything the government does is lies (see above) why do you use the opinion of the NY state legislature as proof? More hypocrisy.

You still do not understand what average means. Expenses are not equal for all people. As your income increases or decreases, so do your expenses (for those who do not use credit to live beyond their means). This is simple reality. Look at the millionaire with a mansion, and the grocery store clerk. Check their expenses. You will find quite a difference. However, an "average" expenses takes these two numbers, sums them, and divides by two. The average does not accurately represent what people in poverty really spend. That people use it for such purposes only shows that they are lying and distorting reality.

Oh and by the way, the poverty line is not suppressed. It is raised in step with inflation and the cost of living. Nice try. Now, go fix YOUR flawed methodology (but you cant if you want to spin the data) and report back to us.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by LightinDarkness]

reply to post by LightinDarkness


You just keep misunderstanding us dont you? Again....the problem with posting threads when you are at a full time job. You just dont get your point accross very well, but anyway its a good way to kill time so....
We hear what you say man but we dont agree. I have personal responsibility which is why i make the car payments....and yes i missed on credit card payment and one student loan payment but what do yo uthink the circumstances were? Do you think i said "F it i just dont want to pay it" No....i just forgot. Its that simple, im human (hence the human condition) and i forgot and missed it maybe by a few days or a week. So because of one mistake mastercard raised my rate to 32%!!! And thats right to you? Regardless of what the terms and conditions are....that is right to do to someone, and is it right to hold that interest for 3 months? If i didnt get a better job at that time (and i consider myself lucky) i would have gone into bankrupcty because of the interest rate alone.....so that would be forcing me into bankruptcy do you not agree? You think if i called them up and asked for a "break" because i was unemployed they would lower my rate even though they had the power to? Its not about being entitled to this break its about humanism and there is very little in our society but you seem to be ok with that? ARe you truly ok with that though? Once your out of school and yo ufind that its harder to get a good paying job than you originally thought and youre having trouble paying off your student loans what will you say then? Im not saying this will happen but it does to a lot of kids in your position....you just make it too black and white man.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


This is a topic of debate that should be discussed in real time which is the point of my other thread. WE cant properly exchange ideas and understand each other fully till we do something like that. This issue is one that is controversial especially when the injustices done are not so obvious and in front of your face as police brutality but they do exist and work perfectly in keeping several generations of people in debt and subdued. You made a statement about how i should have to pay interest because the value of the dollar changes and since im using someone else's money the rate should change accordingly. Ok....what about the states and the way that they distribute taxes? They overspend, they underfund and they use money where they shouldnt....do we as citizens have the right to charge them interest or at least refuse to pay those taxes? No we dont...we should but we dont. We know for a fact that the MTA in NY fudged their books because they have two sets of accounting documents, one which show a deficit and one shows a surplus. Of course they only hand over the deficit so they can raise fairs. YEt they pay the president of the MTA which is answerable to the public and is a civil and social program, probably a million a year which in my opinion he or she should not be receiving. ITS TAX MONEY!!! So they take my money and misappropriate it because they create a situation where they report a deficit and force higher fairs on the citizens. So we pretty much pay twice! We pay the tax which isnt used exactly how its supposed to and we pay at the turnstile. Maybe i should get rid of my car because soon publice transporation will cost more than a loan payment. Its silly, just plain silly. I went to rome and rode the train for free....we walked right in right in front of the cops like the rest of the people. If we did that here we would be chased down like dogs and ticketed and possibly detained. Isnt there something wrong with that picture? It seems to me that law enforcement accross seas really is focused on the wellbeing of the citizens and society as a whole and not frivolous ticketing and rediculous fines meant to restrict the actions of a citizen in society. I guess they understand the fact that if the people are happy than societies problems will be less and less....

reply to post by LightinDarkness


This is not an issue of people not knowing how to live within their means because those people are easily picked out of a crowd. Just come to NY and you will see so many spoiled teens running around it will make you sick....if they keep it up then they eventually will be homeless right, because they would be spending money they dont have. Especially if debt is determined by lack of personal responsibility, these people you speak of would be piss poor and on the street wouldnt they?

reply to post by GUICE2


The only people that get your points are those of your same ideology. I assure you, I am more than capable of getting across mine. So much so that at this point all I am doing is repeating myself while you scramble to justify everything. I don't care what your circumstances are for your late payments - you paid late, so you pay the penalty. End of story. You should not carry revolving debt if you cannot afford the interest rate, and should not break your terms of the agreement if you are unwilling to pay the penalty.

When will you understand that the world does not exist to make you feel warm and fuzzy? You are not entitled nor do you deserve a break from anyone, least of all from a company whose money YOU spent and then broke the terms of YOUR agreement with them. If they give you one out of niceness that is their decision, but they do not need to.

I already have a full time job offer lined up when I get out of school, and I have worked more than one full time job before. Anyone can. That you choose not to is not my fault. Also, I decided to get into a field where I could get a job - people that choose to major only in English should not be surprised that they cannot find a job. That is their mistake. You make the world black and white - with "bad" being anyone who disagrees with you and "good" being anyone who does.

You perceive injustice where none exists, because you desperately want to blame someone for your own problems. You refuse to understand there is a cost to borrowing money that is not yours, and refuse to take responsibility for it. This whole allusion to taxes is comical at best. The state is not borrowing your money, you are giving the state your money. There is no borrowing cost. Whenever the IRS messes up and takes to much, they do by law owe you INTEREST (OH NO!) that more than makes up for your losing the money. You live in a dream world if you dont want to pay government workers what they are worth. As I already said, they get paid crap and if you paid any less you wouldnt have an MTA. Stop accusing the MTA of conspiracies and cooking the books without evidence. Until you provide it I will just assume you are making stuff up or are misunderstanding financial statements.

You do not understand how local taxes work. When you pay to use public transit, that money pays for the public transit. The local government has decided that instead of imposing a tax on all tax payers for a system that will only benefit those who use it, they will only "tax" those who use it. You should be happy. Local property taxes go to pay for all other servers. When will you understand there is no overlap or conspiracy? All of this information is PUBLIC and its called FINANCIAL STATEMENTS.

You again show a fundamental lack of understanding about what personal responsibility means. If you don't have the money - don't spend it. If you do - then spend it on what you want to spend it. Its just that simple. Period.

I am just going to stop responding to you. You refuse to acknowledge anything but your own distortion of reality, and refuse to take personal responsibility. You cannot see anything beyond your ideology, and are so blind all you do is repeat yourself and claim everyone else that doesn't color the world with your ideology "doesn't get it." No, YOU dont get it. Your responses are so predictable this is again bordering on comical.

Your random ramblings insert far too many weird things that just show your paranoid that I will not comment on (the police thing - WHAT? No. Don't bother. I don't even care.).

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Listen buddy....i take personal responsiblity. I pay the bills like everyone else so let me ask you what exactly is your definition of not taking personal responsibility for your actions? Also, does taking personal responsibility for your mistakes mean that you should accept punishment for them no matter how outrageous they are? Doesnt the punishment have to match the crime? What crime by the way have i committed by making the mistake of not reading the terms and conditions and being fully knoweledgable of all the implications involved? What crime have i committed sir, that you feel so right in telling people like me that i deserve to pay high interest for so many years? I want to pay it off and try to but the interest is costing me a fortune and obviously i have to pay what i used but by your logic i have to accept any "punishment" that they will instill upon me whether it be late fees or high interest rates simply because of my one mistake? And that is justice to you? whats your problem?? Im not sitting here saying anything about ignoring my debt....but why are you trying to convince me that they can punish me however they like because of one mistake? Where is the sense it that dude? Thats like getting expelled for forgetting your homework at home. You dont think its a little excessive? Seriously...what is your problem? I dont mean to wish harship upon you but someday i hope you get a taste of what im talking about....god forbid you should miss a payment on one of your student loans and then have to deal with the inefficiency of the credit world just to get the information off of your credit report. THey dont make it easy and im not saying that they should but do they intentionally have to make it so hard? Do they?

reply to post by LightinDarkness


You didnt answer my question....and the MTA is funded by tax money and not just what you pay at the turnstile, but do you think its right for them to declare a deficit and raise fairs? If its public and they have falsified their accounting books then who is being held accountable? No one....there must have been a few news articles and thats it...no indictments, no investigations, no audits and no ACCOUNTABILITY at all. But this is all ok for you because it just seems that you beleive that the system doesnt need to be fixed....thats why i feel you are a little dillusional my friend. I may not have it exactly right but at least i admit the fact that the system is inherently corrupt and that there are institutions out there that intentionally take advatnage of students, taxpayers and citizens in general because they know that we cant do anything about it, and if you personally start a career for one of these companies than you are just perpetuating the corruption. I fear for the future of this country and so should you.....or maybe not since you want to play for the winning team and disregard what the rest of us are going through because ITS OUR OWN FAULT!

reply to post by GUICE2


Not taking personal responsibility for your actions is blaming your debt on the big bad credit card companies because YOU used OTHER PEOPLES MONEY and don't like the terms of using their money - even though you agreed to it and knew the terms ahead of time. You are not being punished, so stop with the victim mentality. That is all you are doing, is playing the victim. If you were actually being punished you'd be in a debtors prison - lucky for you, we don't punish debt.

You are paying a fee for using other peoples money and doing so outside of the terms of your original loan agreement. If you want to pay it off its very simple actually - get another job. Drink water. Eat ramen noodles. Lots of people do it, and it would be paid off in no times. I've done it too. You choose not to because you think you are entitled, because you think you are the victim.

I won't be getting a taste of what your talking about because I don't play the victim. When I take out loans, I read what the terms are and I agree to them ahead of time. I abide by the terms of my loan agreement. I don't have a victim mentality, and I take responsibility for my finances.

reply to post by LightinDarkness


Dude we have to talk in person because you keep missing what im saying...when did i ever blame my debt on the creditors? I never did....im simply saying that i have shown good faith and more in making payments twice a month for several months after my original mistake of missing one payment (you missed that question too....what if you make the same mistake for some unforseable reason and miss a payment on your student loans?). They intentionally make it difficult for us to get out of debt because the more interest they charge the more money they make and most of the time it creates a hardship for the person in debt...even when they are making the payments. What dont you get? Im not blaming sears for my debt because i chose to use the card, no one is denying this fact....but all im saying is that they do not have to INTENTIONALLY make it harder for people like me but they do and they do it for profit. Im blaming them for being greedy thats all. Youre out of control man....you may like ramen but i dont and not only that its just plain not good for you. We all used to eat that crap and you know how much indegestion i used to get? What do you have an iron stomach? your nuts to always eat that processed stuff....but your logic is flawless right? I should sacrifice everything to pay off my debt even if it means eating nothing but bread? thats a hardship that no one should have to go through and could be illeviated by perhaps 10% off the astronomical rates so now mastercard makes a little less than before...so what big deal. Think of it this way, the quicker i get out of debt the more money i will have to spend at the store right?

reply to post by LightinDarkness


sheesh....its not about pointing fingers man. Not even close, you totally misunderstood the point. Its about working together and illiminating greed. I made the mistake and used too much credit cards whether i needed to or not.....so i have to pay them off i know this. Yet high interest rates force me to pay much much more than i owe which i get if it was a reasonable rate but 18% is not and 32% especially isnt.