German Official Wants nation wide Scientology Ban

reply to post by MikeboydUS


Well really, you both of you are missing the point.

The question isn't religion vs. atheism, but the greed of man. God's and the absence of them weren't taken into consideration in the taking of all those lives, but the motives of individual men only.

Originally posted by skyshow
Um, read what I wrote again. You completely missed the point sir. In my statement (misspellings and all) nowhere does it say anything about atheism. Instead you in fact help me to make my point even clearer as to why we need to abandon religion and these dead gods. *sighs* Why is the concept of life without religion and dead gods so hard to grasp? Even the point to much of Jesus' teachings themselves appear to be that organized religion is not needed. And indeed more people have died in the name of some god or relgion than have ever for institutionalised atheism.

I'm not defending any specific religion. I'm defending the Freedom of Religion. It doesnt matter if the religion is true or false. This is freedom of choice and freedom of thought. Every human should have the right to believe what ever they want to believe, even you.

Show me some figures on religious deaths throughout history. I can show you some horrifying numbers.

1st. Mao Ze Dong, responsible for the deaths of 49 to 79 million people.

Thats possibly more than all deaths in WW2 and that is around almost one-third of the entire population of Earth in the time of Jesus and almost one-quarter of the Earths population 1000 years ago.

2nd. Josef Stalin: 23 million, around 1/10th of the human population in the time of Jesus.

3rd. Adolf Hitler: 12 million

4th. Pol Pot: 1.7 million

Now for some Nationalist Secular Wars:

1. World War 2: 40 million to 70 million

2. World War 1: 19 million plus

3. Russian Civil War: 5 to 9 million

4. Napoleonic Wars: 3.5 million to 16 million

5. Korean War: 2.5 to 3.5 million

6. Vietnam War: 2.4 to 5 million


Now for some religious wars figures:

1. The Taipeng Rebellion: 20 million to 30 million (Bizarre Messianic brother of Christ cult)

2. Conquests of Timurlane: 7 to 20 million (Islam)

3. Thirty Years War: 3 to 11.5 million (Catholics Vs Protestants)

4. Yellow Turban Rebellion: 3 to 7 million (Taoism)

5. Catholic-Protestant Conflict in France: 2 to 4 million

6. Afghan Civil War: 1.5 to 2 million (Islam)

Now for some other deaths related to greed:

1. Genocide of Native Americans: 13 to 20 million

2. Atlantic Slave Trade: 4 to 60 million


Mao and Stalin alone come out at over 70 million deaths at a minimum.

Timurlane and the Taipeng Rebellion deaths around at least 27 million and at most 50 million.

[edit on 9/12/07 by MikeboydUS]

I see your point. The problem is that data is tainted. There is no way to tell how many of those people who participated in those wars/conflicts are believers of some sort or another. In other words....as you know, or should know, the Catholic church, for example, prayed for troupes on both sides that is the alied side and the axis side...and they proceeded to slauder one another. So when you toss out this data, you have to understand that it doesn't really back up your claim that religious belief is the answer to humanities woes. Indeed, I would counter that it is the root of the problem.

what we need is FREEDOM FROM RELIGION!!! Once we break free from this antiquated belief system that has obviously not served humanity well (as per your statistics you posted) perhaps we as a human race can enjoy some piece finally and then begin to venture out into the stars. Look, if it hasn't worked over the centuries and through out all of history, why hang on to a belief system that doesn't serve humanity? Shouldn't we begin to look beyond religion if it hasn't worked? Obviously it has not worked. Why hang on to an old song? It's tired dude, and it's really worn out.

Originally posted by skyshow
I see your point. The problem is that data is tainted. There is no way to tell how many of those people who participated in those wars/conflicts are believers of some sort or another. In other words....as you know, or should know, the Catholic church, for example, prayed for troupes on both sides that is the alied side and the axis side...and they proceeded to slauder one another. So when you toss out this data, you have to understand that it doesn't really back up your claim that religious belief is the answer to humanities woes. Indeed, I would counter that it is the root of the problem.

I never said religion was an answer. I said people should be able to believe what ever they want to believe, even you.

My point is Humanity is the root of the Problem. Not religion, nationalism, ideology, or anything else. We, the Human Race are violent and obesessed with identity and competition. That identity could be anything: a religion, nation, school, gang, tribe, sex, age, ethnicity, etc.

Thats why its futile to ban religion. It wont solve squat except make more people mad and another reason for people to identify with an idea then fight over it. Our debate right now is the very essence of whats wrong. The fact that no one can agree on anything.

So until we are all chipped or drugged into an almost zombie like state or extinct, there will be no peace on Earth.

Perhaps your right. I recently read "The Lucifer Priciple A Scientific Expedition Into the Frorces of History" by Howard Bloom....now onto the follow up "Global Brain" ...anyway, two BA degrees and a Master's, and this is about as any good explanation I have come across. Yes, and I do agree banning religion is not the answer, and yet the abuses in the world of religion are titanic...what to do, other than ride it out? surly there must be another way? and where is our gods if not sleeping or passed out on the job?

but I don't believe the answer is in "banning a religion". I simply think it will come within. When people grow tired of their dead gods, and decide to put down their idols, and get to know one another, and begin to celebrate diversity, and enjoy one another's foods, and stories etc...then and only then will we arrive at peace. It doesn't come from a forced intention, but rather from a spiritual drive to find love for one another. That, to me, seems to transend any one religion.

finally, I go back and look over your report of all those wars and conflicts. It's just freakin' sickening dude!!! It kind of begs the question where would our population now be were it not for those millions and millions of deaths? It's not a subject anyone enjoys entertaining that's for sure, yet it's a real subject. This is another issue regarding religion and why they remain stead fast in support of "multiply and prosper" and against any form of birth control and contraception. Of course we know it's all about power, MONEY, and control. For with more births (wanted or not wanted) means a greater percentage chance that more people will join the church....think about one person and if that one person is a good ___________ (fill in the blank your religion of choice) and gives money regularly say about ten percent or so. Multiply that up by the the average income in USA over the average life expectancy and see what you come up with. Now after you have done the math, explain to us why religion should continue to be unregulated. Greedy good for nothing war mongers!!!

Originally posted by anxietydisorder

Originally posted by Elhardt
Scientology has nothing to do with a person's soul, what happens after death, or has a person's actions accountable to a deity (or even believe in a deity).

You've just proven how little you know about this subject.
Your view of this Church is based on total ignorance of the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard.

(hand up) There is a deity (Zenu) ,"Paraphrasing from court transcripts" who blew up billions of ppl millions of yrs ago with atomic bombs. lol there's a god (one sort of has to look up to/cower under) that L Ron Hubbard sure writes some good fiction lol

reply to post by anxietydisorder


sorry for my bash earlier.you seem to be a real believer and if you are better off in your life with these beliefs then good for you.as long as someone isn't hurting themselves or others,whatever works for the individual (i'm in the military so i know what the sheep mentality can be like)

1.i just have a problem with a "religion" that keeps it's teachings secret from the masses.i have tried to look at the other side but the web pages that promote this "religion" only have pics of "happy ppl" and statements that read like an infomercial.

2. from what i have read about Dianetics it seems to be a good collection of self help strategies someone could incorporate into their lives.

3.i'm not a religious person so all i see is a lot of sects with their hands out that point out as examples of the truly faithful those who have given a lot of money or time that has contributed to a lot of money.

4.i have read a lot of stuff about ppl of your faith having to do "joe jobs" to "stay in the good graces" if they don't have enough funds to level up
(you see what i just said"level-up") sounds like Amway or something lol.

5.everything about this "religion" after the spiritual help aspect reads like a pyramid scam .

6. i say "good on Germany" for treating Sciantology the way it operates "as a business".

7. if they(Sciantology) want respect as a religion they should start helping ppl outside of themselves instead of excluding everyone who believes differently.

you can flame this post all you want, these are just observations of a web surfer lol.

reply to post by biggie smalls


This is the case that I was thinking about. I knew I had seen them in big trouble. Funny how Hubbard's son says 98% of what L.Ron has said is a lie.

www.tingleff.org...