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Originally posted by _Mr.X_
Good post icybreeze.
1- I don't know why they do this.
2- Have you ever prayed the rosary? I have. What some consider repetitive others would call remembrance. I stopped smoking marijuana and cigarettes because Mary helped me. Think of it this way, When you were growing up, you mother knew where you were right? Mary knows where Her Son is. Mary will take you to Him, if you want Her to. The rosary will put you "in touch" with Mary. Try it.
3- I have no answer to this. I know that man is fallible. Anything given could be twisted by the hand of men.
4- I found that to be true 100%
5- Some churches allow you to drink from the cup and some do not. I believe the franciscan order does not offer the communion cup but the church here where I go to does. I agree with you 100% that ALL RC churches must offer the cup.
Originally posted by d60944
Saints are not mediators or divinities. Any more than I am mediator or divinity for the world when I pray for the world. They are part of our community, united with all Christians through the church which is the body of Christ, and as thus we all pray for each other.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
We are called to pray for each other. It says so in scripture. Asking Mary or the other saints in heaven to pray for us to God is NOT going against scripture. It's doing exactly what it says to do. See the scripture quotes below ...
Admirable St. Dymphna, how just you were to all whom you encountered, and how careful you were to give every person his due, and more than he might desire or expect. By your power with God please come to assist us to be just to all we meet, and even to be generous in giving everyone more than strict justice requires.
Amen.
Our Father, God almighty, maker of the heaven and the earth.
Please grant me the ability to be just to all we meet, and be generous in giving to everyone more then strict justice requires.
In Jesus Name we pray.
Amen.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Fatherwhich art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Fatherwhich art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
So are our angels. It stands to reason that they could, and would, offer their prayerful support.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshiping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which showed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Originally posted by jakyll
What about the Phoenician God's?
And the Carthagenian Gods?
And the Persian God's?
And the Etruscan Gods?
satan has been busy corrupting the churches but his best move was what he has done to the Catholic church.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Prayers for the dead: Tobit 12:12;2, maccabees 12:39-45; 1 Cor 15:29; 2 Timothy 1:16-18.
Tobit 12:12;2 I can now tell you that when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented and read the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and I did the same thing when you used to bury the dead.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
2Ti 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain:
2Ti 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me.
2Ti 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Dead who stand before God are aware of our situations: Matthew 22:20, Luke 15:10; 1 Cor 4:9; Hebrews 12:1.
Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
Luk 15:10 Likewise, I say unto you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner that repenteth.
1Co 4:9 For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Originally posted by FlyersFan
They intercede for us living: Jeremiah 15:1; 2 Maccabees 15:14; Rev 6:9-10.
Jer 15:1 Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be toward this people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Intermediaries who present our prayers to God - Rev 5:8
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odors, which are the prayers of saints.
Originally posted by FlyersFan Appear on earth to interact with us - 1 Sam 28:12-15, Sirach 46:20, 2 Maccabees 15:13-16, Matthew 17:103 and 27:50-53, Rev 11:3
1Sa 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spoke to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come
Mat 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elijah truly shall first come, and restore all things.
Mat 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Originally posted by FlyersFan Guardian angels: Psalm 34-7, 91:11; Matthew 18:10; Acts 12:15; Hebrews 1:14.
Angels aware of our thoughts and needs: Luke 15:10, 1 Corinthians 4:9.
Angels participate with God - Rev 1:4
Angels are intermediaries- Tobit 12:12, 15; Rev 8:3-4
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Tobit 12:12, 15 "I brought a reminder of your prayer before the Holy One; and when you buried the dead, i was likewise present with you .... I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints and enter into the presence of the glory of the Holy One".
Originally posted by FlyersFan
2 Maccabees 15:13-14 - "Then likewise a man appeared, distinguished by his gray hair and dignity, and of marvelous majesty and authority. And Onias spoke saying, "This is a man who loves the brethren and prays much for the people and the holy city, Jeremiah, the prophet of God."
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Revelation 1:4 - "Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne."
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Revelation 5:8 - "The four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense which are the prayers of the saints".
Revelation 8:3-4 "And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God."
Originally posted by FlyersFan
(the dead speak to God about affairs of the living)
Revelation 6:9-10 "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, 'O Soverign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'"
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Matthew 17:1-3 - "Jesus took with him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain apart. And he was transigured before them and his face shown like the sun, and his garments became white as light. And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him"
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Matthew 18:10 "see that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I tell you that in Heaven their angels always behold the face of my Father who is in Heaven".
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Worshipping the One True God and asking those who already behold His face in Heaven to interceed for us is NOT worshipping a false God. And it doesn't even come close to necromancy.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Seriously ... WHY is this thread still here at ATS? It's just another anti-Catholic thread that is really a scripture spitting contest. ALL of this has already been discussed at BTS many times.
Originally posted by EricD
I'm doing neither. I'm trying to establish basic premises. So, if Mary were alive you would have no problem asking her to pray for you?
Meaning you would have no problem with her interceding on your behalf if she were alive?
Originally posted by jakyll
Also,many early Christians beliveved that Jesus was just a man,not the actual Son of God,his divinity only appeared after the 1st Nicea Council.
Originally posted by jakyll
There is also the fact that their are many laws of God that are ignored today,such as only wearing certain types of clothing,and not eating shellfish.Many of them seem absurd or appear to have no relevence in the world today.But they are ther Laws of God! and billions of Christians happily ignore them,or don't even know about them!!
Originally posted by jakyll
The Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Roman Church are not one and the same.
1. They ask their members to call the priest "Father"
2. Praying with repetetive words (rosary beads)
3. They teach that Mary had no other kids besides Jesus.
4.They tell you to pray to the Virgin Mary and through her you will reach God's ear.
5. Only the priest drinks from communion cup, everyone is supposed to.
Originally posted by J.Smit
Sadly, many of them will never hear a sermon on John 14:6; for that alone negates Mary's power of forgiving sins.
Yes. The fourth empire was a religiously run dominion, and was ruled by the title of Pope rather than Emperor.
(A subtle change from a Military Empire to a Religious State.)
After the Western Empire was dissolved in 476 AD, Rome itself fell in 546.
King Charlemagne gave his new kingdom the name Roman Empire in 800.
Otto the Great of Saxony also gave his kingdom the name Roman Empire in 962.
This lasted until 1806 and was renamed the Holy Roman Empire in the 12th century.
Thus from the fall of Rome in 546 (and after the third Roman Empire) until the end of the Holy Roman Empire in 1806 was 1,260 years. (1806 - 546 = 1260)
Numerous provisions serve to secure the status of Orthodox Christianity as the state religion of the empire, uniting Church and state, and making anyone who was not connected to the Christian church a non-citizen.
The very first law in the Codex requires all persons under the jurisdiction of the Empire to hold the holy Orthodox (Christian) faith. This was primarily aimed against heresies such as Arianism. This text later became the springboard for discussions of international law, especially the question of just what persons are under the jurisdiction of a given state or legal system. Other laws, while not aimed at pagan belief as such, forbid particular pagan practices. For example, it is provided that all persons present at a pagan sacrifice may be indicted as if for murder.
The principle of "Servitus Judaeorum" (Servitude of the Jews) established by the new laws determined the status of Jews throughout the Empire for hundreds of years ahead. The Jews were disadvantaged in a number of ways. The emperor became an arbiter in internal Jewish affairs and Jews could not testify against Christians and were disqualified from holding a public office. Jewish civil and religious rights were restricted: "they shall enjoy no honors". The use of the Hebrew language in worship was forbidden. Shema Yisrael, sometimes considered the most important prayer in Judaism ("Hear, O Israel, the Lord is one") was banned, as a denial of the Trinity. A Jew converted to Christianity was entitled to inherit his or her father's estate, to the exclusion of the still-Jewish brothers and sisters. Similar laws applied to the Samaritans.
Four characteristics and one time period are clearly stated.
It shall a) be given into his hand until a time, and times, and the dividing of time;
b) speak words against the most High;
c) change times; and
d) change laws.
Under the influence of Ambrosius, Gratian prohibited Pagan worship at Rome; refused to wear the insignia of the pontifex maximus as unbefitting a Christian; removed the Altar of Victory from the Senate House at Rome, despite protests of the pagan members of the Senate, and confiscated its revenues; forbade legacies of real property to the Vestals; and abolished other privileges belonging to them and to the pontiffs. Nevertheless he was still deified after his death.
the Emperor Gratian, at the urging of St. Ambrose, removed the Altar of Victory from the Forum, withdrew the state subsidies that funded many pagan activities and formally renounced the title of Pontifex Maximus.[14] It is said that Pope Damasus I was the first Bishop of Rome to assume the title,[15] From the reign of Theodosius, no power or office in late antiquity has claimed or contested the legitimacy of the Bishop of Rome from holding the the ancient Roman title and office of Pontifex Maximus. In Emperor Theodosius's edict De fide catholica of 27 February 380, enacted in Thessalonica and published in Constantinople for the whole empire, by which he established Catholic Christianity as the official religion of the empire, he referred to Damasus (bishop of Rome, in the Latin-speaking west) as "pontificem" and to Peter (bishop of Alexandria, in the Greek-speaking east) as "episcopum" (from Greek ἐπίσκοπος:
Many in both Pagan and Christian society saw in Damasus a man whose worldly ambitions outweighed his pastoral concerns. His entertainments were infamous for their lavishness. Praetextatus, a wealthy aristocrat and a high priest in the cults of numerous gods, reportedly joked to Damasus, "Make me bishop of Rome and I will become a Christian". Some of his critics called him "the ladies' ear-tickler."
Pius VI must revoke the Briefs relating to the Civil Constitution of the clergy and to the Inquisition. The Pope refused, and negotiations were broken off; they failed again at Florence, where an attempt had been made to renew them.
The Directory sent him ferocious instructions. "The Roman religion", they wrote, "will always be the irreconcilable enemy of the Republic; first by its essence, and next, because its servants and ministers will never forgive the blows which the Republic has aimed at the fortune and standing of some, and the prejudices and habits of others. The Directory requests you to do all that you deem possible, without rekindling the torch of fanaticism, to destroy the papal Government, either by putting Rome under some other power or" which would be still better "by establishing some form of self government which would render the yoke of the priests odious."
For this expedition for Berthier's entry into Rome and the proclamation of the Roman Republic (10-15 February, 1798), and for the captivity of Pius VI, who was carried off a prisoner to Valence, see PIUS VI.
"Seven kings" = 7 religious faiths of the Mediterranean region from a 5000 BCE to 95 CE religious perspective.
"Five have fallen" (ie. been superseded) = 1-5.
"One is" = 6.
"Other not yet come" = 7.
The "eighth" = 8. The "ten horns (kings)" = - -.
1) Babylonian gods
2) Egypt gods
3) Judaism
4) Greek Mythical gods
5) Roman Mythical gods
6) [B](Roman) Christianity[/B]
7) Islam
- - Waldensian, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians,
- - Quakers, Baptists, Congregationalists, Mennonites, Methodists.
8) Mormonism
Originally posted by SouthernBelle82
Do you know why some churches don't offer the cup? I find that interesting.