The Catholic religion blatantly defies God and his teachings. leads its members to perdition...why?

reply to post by d60944


But your talking about Roman Catholic Canonization of the Bible, which is nothing more then their stamp of approval on what was to be used. There were Bibles in existence prior to the many years it took the Catholic Church to definitively decide on what they considered canonical. If you look back at the quote above, Irenaeus had already listed the books he considered to be Inspired works in his “Against Heresy’s”, and they have since found even older fragments which include the same basic works.

The Muratorian fragment is a copy of perhaps the oldest known list of the books of the New Testament. The fragment lacks its beginning and ending, and is a 7th century Latin manuscript, which internal cues identify as a translation from a Greek original of about 170. The fragment listed all the works that were accepted as canonical by the churches known to its anonymous compiler.

As to the books which were considered Deuticanonical, Apocryphal, or Pseudepigraphal, there is nothing to prevent a person from going out and reading them. Many are considered to be good works, but lacking in the same authority as the actual Bible. Some are excluded simply because they have nothing to add to the story of Christ. Others are a bit more dangerous as they include Gnostic teachings. Again though there is nothing to stop someone from acquiring a copy of them and reading them to their hearts content. As to the differences in the Inspired Scripture, they are not so great as to alter the message; most of them would not even be noticeable to anyone who was not a Biblical scholar.

By far a more dangerous trend is the modern rewriting of the Bible, especially by some interest groups, to attempt to make it more politically correct in their estimation.

Originally posted by d60944
I got one of them too..... ironic given that the idea of people quoting other people over and over touches on what we're discussing :-)

True…
The only problem they have with it here is that it eats up their hard drive space.

Originally posted by d60944
Too tired for more tonight: maybe tomorrow. Hope I don't wake up to the worst soggy news from Eastern England.

Yeah, I have to be heading off to good old work shortly myself. I enjoyed the conversation though.
Good luck with the bad weather over there.

Originally posted by icybreeze

Originally posted by scientist
other than the 10 commandments... hence the need for all these religions.

fine, using the ten cmmandments lets see how many the Catholic church disobeys...

#2 thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (all you got to do is look inside a Catholic church and see all those saints they pray to)

ok they blatantly disobey one..not too bad...

Graven Images

‘You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me..’

These are intrinsically linked. To believe otherwise would be to ignore the construction of graven images that populate the Old Testament (including on the very conveyance of the 10 Commandments.

Numbers 21:9
2 Kings 18:4
Numbers 8:4
1 Kings 6:18
1 Kings 7:25, 29
Ezekiel 1:5; 10:20
Exodus 25:18-22
1 Kings 6:23-8; 8:6-7
Ezekiel 41:19
Exodus 25:20


Eric

Yet another anti-Catholic thread. :shk:

ALL of the supposed points made by the OP have been discussed over and over and over and over in BTS.

Everything from the fact that no where in the bible does it say that Mary had other children ... to GOD HIMSELF demanding images of angels and even snakes (remember Moses and the serpents???????) be made.

I suggest the OP stop calling his/her dad 'father' and get rid of any and all pictures of relatives that he/she has in the house (idol worship ) ... and never visit DC where the Lincoln Memorial is. THEN he/she can wag finger.

Until then ... go read the Catechism and learn what the Catholic church really teaches ... and go read the MANY MANY threads dowm om BTS that already address each and every alleged 'point' made in the opening post.

reply to post by icybreeze


I had a close friend ask me once why Catholics practice "idolatry." I told him that we did not, and he reminded me of the prayer cards in my bag, and the statues in church. Worshipping an idol or a statue of a person is a sin. Praying to a saint's statue is a sin. That is not the purpose of those images.

I have never in my life prayed to a statue or a picture. I believe in the Bible there is a story about Israelites creating and worshipping a golden calf... Not the same thing.

I also meant to add that these statues and paintings and whatever else are not, and were never meant to be "graven images." They have been used in religious instruction, and as spiritual aids. To consider them in any way a violation of a Commandment is ridiculous. That would be like saying that it is a sin to possess any photographs or paintings of a deceased relative.

[edit on 8-11-2007 by TheHypnoToad]

IcyBreeze,

I’ll check out the site you offered, but for now:

Men referred to as Fathers

Old Testament

Gen. 45:8
Job 29:16
Is. 22:20-21
2 Kgs 2:212
2 Kgs 6:21

New Testament

Acts 7:2
Romans 9:10


Hail Mary

"Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28). The second, "and blessed is the fruit of thy womb (Jesus)", is borrowed from the Divinely inspired greeting of St. Elizabeth (Luke 1:42)

Is your problem with the Hail Mary that it is repeated in its form? What are your thoughts on Luke 11:2?

What is your problem in general with prayers that are repeated? Do you think that they take the place of other prayers that are more extemporaneous?

Mary’s Other Children

I don’t get your complaint with this.

Intercession by Mary

Why would you ask a friend to pray for you, but not Jesus’ mother?


Eric

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Until then ... go read the Catechism and learn what the Catholic church really teaches ... and go read the MANY MANY threads dowm om BTS that already address each and every alleged 'point' made in the opening post.

Yes, they do tend to enjoy making up all kinds of explanations of why its ok to do things that are expressly forbidden in the Bible. However, if you take it down to brass tracks, it all comes from the fact that both the Roman Catholic Church, and the Roman Empire liked to ingest pagan practices within their culture so it was easier for pagans to accept them. They have remained simply because they have been tradition, and because they are unwilling to admit that certain things were wrong. Even as I showed above about the Diet of Worms, when they got caught with their pants down, rather then admit to their mistakes they just wrote more and more doctrine to cover up these facts and excuse them.


[edit on 11/8/2007 by defcon5]

reply to post by defcon5


And what exactly was it that you thought you showed in your post about the Diet of Worms?

Eric

Originally posted by TheHypnoToad
I also meant to add that these statues and paintings and whatever else are not, and were never meant to be "graven images." They have been used in religious instruction, and as spiritual aids. To consider them in any way a violation of a Commandment is ridiculous. That would be like saying that it is a sin to possess any photographs or paintings of a deceased relative.

However, do you pray to Mary or to Saints?
No matter if the Church wants to paint a nice pretty facade on that practice and call it “intersession” or not, you’re still not praying the way that Christ said to pray. Only Christ is to “Intercede” between you and God the Father.

Originally posted by EricD
And what exactly was it that you thought you showed in your post about the Diet of Worms?

Exactly what I stated above, that Rome was caught teaching outside the Bible in a court of law, and thus Martin Luther was saved from being turned over to the Inquisition as an innocent man from pointing out these Catholic errors in teaching. Rather then admit they were wrong, Rome continued on and eventually covered it up. I had this discussion once with a Sister when I went to Catholic High School, and her version of the events were strangely different from the actual Historical Texts that still exist from the time. The reason being, that again Rome wished to alter history rather then to teach the truth. See, if they ever admit that they are wrong on a topic then it hits against a lot of Doctrine that was put into effect back in the day when they still followed Papal Infallibility, and the Pope being the Voice of God on the Earth.

To OP i get what you are asking ..or more as to why you are. Does it confuse you "why" they do it? It confused me for long but that is exactly what flesh and the evils he serves want,CONFUSION. Do not stress yourself over as to "why" on anything or any church as you will just run into a brickwall. Take all away from you that makes you judge so that you do not judge anymore,so one less negativity/sin can be found in you,that makes you a stronger child of God.Do not judge anything which will only lead us even further away,it is not worth it.

I am gonna say my 2 cents but will not come back ,i do not judge them anymore but gonna say what i have learned over time.

The reason why man struggle today to believe that The Trinity is real or "imaginary" 'cause flesh as such "man made religions" twisted God's word in such a way to fit them,they hid books from us who needed to know on how to really walk the path,not to mention change "translate" the Book over & over to fit them in ways so only they will gain from it.They will only gain in flesh and not in Spirit...they robbing us from spiritual freedom and that is why don't get caught up in them,just ignore it and follow your heart,you have noticed which so many cannot see and hence the reason why they don't believe.

Those who are heavily affected are people who lacks in faith or do no know God on a more personal level ,all they notice/see are things of the needy,the always wanting flesh, yes,those who serve "others" are using God's name to distance people from God.

To mention some "lost/hidden" books eg:Apocrypha (it only accounts for some books/gospels taken out The Bible) In the Apocrypha it may fall back to that some books have nothing more than the Gospels in the Bible of today.The issue of Gnostic beliefs are also to be made aware of but there are so so so much we could have known and learned to become pure children of God.People could have been a few steps closer but today with so many hidden scripts we may also read and study it incorrectly...so careful.

The only people who will see the mistakes of man are those who commits themself to further study and to gain strength so we can have all the faith needed.The sad fact is that so many have turned their back away from The Almighty thanks to deceivers.

I do not care how much i am hated but i shall not kiss any ring,if i pray it is between me and God,i have no need for a middleman.If i repent i ask God for forgiveness i do not believe in confessing to flesh.

If you ever do get books that was taken out such as books/gospels from The Apocrypha to mention just this one make sure you have a study guide,there are Christians who know exactly where you come from.

Bye Bye!!

reply to post by defcon5


It's like EricD said... you would ask a friend to pray for you.

reply to post by TheHypnoToad


There would be no problem with asking Mary to pray for you if she were alive to ask in person. The problem comes from the fact that you are praying for a dead person to intercede to God for you, this is a no-no on several levels that are clearly defined in the Bible. At best its Necromancy, at worst it’s worshiping a false God, either way your letting a lesser person do the job that Christ said to allow him to do. Why would you go to a source outside of Christ when you have that option available to you, do you have a problem with trusting him to do the job?

Just in case you didn’t know this, Necromancy is the practice of communicating with people who are dead, sometimes referred to as “familiar spirits”, and it’s clearly spoken about in the Bible.

Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

Lev 19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.

Lev 20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Isa 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

Isa 19:3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.

Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by TheHypnoToad

 

There would be no problem with asking Mary to pray for you if she were alive to ask in person. The problem comes from the fact that you are praying for a dead person to intercede to God for you, this is a no-no on several levels that are clearly defined in the Bible. At best its Necromancy, at worst it’s worshiping a false God, either way your letting a lesser person do the job that Christ said to allow him to do. Why would you go to a source outside of Christ when you have that option available to you, do you have a problem with trusting him to do the job?

I have serious problems with your definitions of both necromancy and familiar spirits. Aside from that you contradict yourself when you say that you would have no problem with asking Mary to pray for you if she was alive, and then go on to to say:

'...either way your letting a lesser person do the job that Christ said to allow him to do. Why would you go to a source outside of Christ when you have that option available to you, do you have a problem with trusting him to do the job?'

Which is it?

Eric

Ok, now you’re just playing dumb or devils advocate.
Asking other living people to pray to God for you is fine, and not the same thing as: 1) praying to the dead, or 2) asking the dead to intercede with God on your behalf. If you are going to ask someone to intercede its only supposed to be Christ that you ask, translation is that you pray to the Father in the name of the Son. Christ himself told us to pray that way in the Garden before his crucifixion.

The simple answer is this, the RCC can take a piece of dung, paint it white, attempt to justify it, write whole books of rules about it, hold councils over it, and give it a fancy name, but in the end what is it really?

The Bible says: No praying to the dead…. Period….
Not for intercession, not for help, not for predictions about the future, nil, nip, nine.

Christ is the only person we are to pray for intercession to the father, and he is the only person we need intercession from. Oh, and PS, Christ is not dead, he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven.

I went to a catholic school also i was obviously raised catholic. Now im older and i think religon is a joke. I do not believe in god that would be like me believing in the easter bunny. You can not prove or disprove god and you can not prove disprove the easter bunny. I remember when i was a little kid and everytime i went to church i never understood why there would be this basket being passed around and people would put there money in it and there was alot of baskets being passed around and they just looked like they were robbing people. and every time i would ask why do we have to give them money every time we come to church. and i would get the same answer the church needs are help to keep spreading gods word. I always thought if i was someone who truley believed in god i would never ask for money to spread his word i would do it just because its the right thing to do. CHURCH is a fraud and a rip off.

reply to post by xHADEEZx

Originally posted by xHADEEZx
I always thought if i was someone who truley believed in god i would never ask for money to spread his word i would do it just because its the right thing to do. CHURCH is a fraud and a rip off.

Did you see some big enforcer looking fellows standing over folks twisting their arms to put money in that basket?
Its not like the church forces anyone to tithe, but as a Christian you should want to. If it’s all about the money for you then you should reexamine your level of being in the world and not of the world. Tithing is a good practice in that it keeps our mind focused on putting God before ourselves and not the other way around. A good way to think of it is not how much of your stuff are you going to give to God, both rather how much of Gods stuff are you going to keep for yourself.

Like it or not the church has to pay its electric bill, its heating bill, its water bill, salaries to its full time workers, for printed material, ministries, and many other things. If you think you could run a church without any material goods I am sure that many folks would like to see it.

reply to post by icybreeze



i guess you haven't actually read the bible... neither has the OP. the book contradicts itself and is in many places morally reprehensible to the point that following it would be impossible.

the book does tell us to treat women as inferiors, to not let women teach (hey, that's one the catholic church actually follows!), to praise a few genocides here and there...

i mean, it's obvious that not following this book is a really good idea.

Regarding praying to the deceased:

One true disagreement is whether or not the deceased are brought to life in heaven "now" (whatever that is meant to mean in a trans-temporal reality), or whether they remain asleep, locked into our own temporal universe, "asleep in the grave". If I'm honest, scripture gives a very confused mishmash of differing suggestions. Cherry-picking verses we can argue that the deceased are not able to hear us, or we can argue that those who die in Christ are now alive in him (cf. the words of Jesus to one of the thieves on his cross).

Tradition in Christianity has historically gone for the latter view. The earliest known altars were the tombs of the deceased faithful - some sort of link between the dead physical body and that same person alive in heaven was believed very early on. But, again, if you do not accept apostolic tradition as carrying authority, and only accept written scripture as possessing the authority then you will not accept that argument.

It is worth noting in scripture that the book of the Revelation fo St John does adopt a position consistent with the early church's tradition of the prayers of saints being real things ("The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8)). It also seems to make it clear people in heaven are aware of what is going on on earth (and thus can "hear" us): Rev. 6:10-11 (they are impatient that something has not yet happened on earth); 7:13–14 ("Sir, thou knowest")

To me, a strict interpretation would be that the saints are in no way "dead" - they are alive, and wholly so by and within god. Intercession of the living is "good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).

St Augustine composed a wonderful passage expressing how all life is life only because of god, and that all communion with other life exists only because of god himself being the source and substance of that life:

... If souls please thee, be they loved in God: ... but in Him are they firmly rooted; else they would leave, and pass away. In Him then may they be loved; and carry to Him along with you what souls you can, and say to them, "Him let us love, Him let us love: He made these, nor is He far off. For He did not make them, and so depart, but they are of Him, and in Him. See there He is, where truth is loved. He is within the very heart, yet has the heart strayed from Him... The good that you love is from Him; but it is good and pleasant through reference to Him...

Intercession of the saints is the work of Christ, because all the saints are alive only in Christ. The communion of saints/kingdom of heaven/body of Christ is a perfect union, not a sort of social democracy. All life is the life of god alone - not some kind of independent self-sustaining thing. The prayers of the saints are the prayers of the living, are the intercession of Christ, are the work of the Holy Spirit. It's all god. It's all the same thing. It's a facet to his reality. There is no contradiction against the sole mediation of Christ in my mind about this, any more than it is a contradiction that Christ (who is god) should propitiate sin for god.

But then, that's just my POV, and this isn't really a comparative theology board....

Shall we instead discuss what necromancy is, and what necromancy isn't?

Cheers.

Rob.

reply to post by d60944


Look its pretty plain in the words of Christ himself how we are supposed to pray:

Joh 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
Joh 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
Joh 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Joh 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

It does not say in the next verse:

“But hey, you know you can pray to your dead relatives, or any other Christian you are pretty sure is in heaven, and have them relay the message along to headquarters.”

They can attempt to justify that to their hearts content, but it is plainly against the word of Jesus Christ himself. We both know that Christ alone justifies us in the presence of the Father through his sacrifice, and he stands opposed to Satan who accuses us before the father. There is no other mediator that can do that job, because there is no other person who lived a sinless life then was sacrificed for our sins, not even a saint.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I will have to admit that your explanation about the dead being alive in Christ was quite a cleaver spin on the subject from an angle I have never considered before, but still it’s a spin and we both know that.

If you want to discuss Necromancy, that is entirely up to you, but I think we both know that its consorting with the dead, normally for the purpose of divination. Divination does not always have to be the reason for the contact though, there are many other reasons including magic. The point is that the Bible is pretty clear on the fact that we are not to attempt contact with the other side, and to do so is an abomination in the eyes of the Lord.


[edit on 11/9/2007 by defcon5]