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...for instance, in that of the descent of Christ into Limbo, an article of the Creed which loses all significance unless it be admitted that the saints of the Old Testament were thereby liberated from this temporal penalty of loss and admitted to the vision of God.
Originally posted by defcon5
Originally posted by SouthernBelle82
Do you know why some churches don't offer the cup? I find that interesting.
Because they believe in transubstantiation and its too dangerious to allow a commoner to drink as they may spill some of it.
Originally posted by d60944
FlyersFan and myself are asserting a different tradition, which holds that those who are deceased in Christ are now alive in him. They are thus not some sort of sleeping spirit being, but are very much alive and in communion (small "c") with all the church in all time, through the fact that all are in Christ.
Originally posted by d60944
you work from the assumption that the deceased are "dead good and proper". i.e. they are unable to be aware of anything whatsoever.
Presumably you operate in a tradition which asserts that all the dead will sleep until the final judgement?
Originally posted by d60944
"Particular Judgement" here - section B deals with scriptural sources, and section E might be particularly relevant in showing that the RCC is quite happy to say that it does not presume to have all the answers and that scripture is not a book of answers to all mankind's questions - as opposed to the General Judgement here.
Originally posted by d60944
As a side question, if you assert the Creed (do you?), how do you respond to the point made which derives from Ephesians 4:9 and more explicitly 1 Peter 3:18-20:
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Nevertheless it is more marvelous that he rose not alone from the dead, but did raise up alive many other dead out of their sepulchres, and they have been seen of many in Jerusalem.
[skipping some]
Now when we were set together with all our fathers in the deep, in obscurity of darkness, on a sudden there came a golden heat of the sun and a purple and royal light shining upon us. And immediately the father of the whole race of men, together with all the patriarchs and prophets, rejoiced, saying: This light is the beginning (author) of everlasting light which did promise to send unto us his co-eternal light. And Esaias cried out and said: This is the light of the Father, even the Son of God, according as I prophesied when I lived upon the earth: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim beyond Jordan, of Galilee of the Gentiles, the people that walked in darkness have seen a great light, and they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them did the light shine. And now hath it come and shone upon us that sit in death.
[skipping some more]
1 And as Satan the prince, and Hell, spoke this together, suddenly there came a voice as of thunder and a spiritual cry: Remove, O princes, your gates, and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in. When Hell heard that he said unto Satan the prince: Depart from me and go out of mine abode: if thou be a mighty man of war, fight thou against the King of glory. But what hast thou to do with him? And Hell cast Satan forth out of his dwelling. Then said Hell unto his wicked ministers: Shut ye the hard gates of brass and put on them the bars of iron and withstand stoutly, lest we that hold captivity be taken captive.
2 But when all the multitude of the saints heard it, they spake with a voice of rebuking unto Hell: Open thy gates, that the King of glory may come in. And David cried out, saying: Did I not when I was alive upon earth, foretell unto you: Let them give thanks unto the Lord, even his mercies and his wonders unto the children of men; who hath broken the gates of brass and smitten the bars of iron in sunder? he hath taken them out of the way of their iniquity. And thereafter in like manner Esaias said: Did not I when I was alive upon earth foretell unto you: The dead shall arise, and they that are in the tombs shall rise again, and they that are in the earth shall rejoice, for the dew which cometh of the Lord is their healing? And again I said: O death, where is thy sting? O Hell, where is thy victory?
[again]
Then Hell, receiving Satan the prince, with sore reproach said unto him: O prince of perdition and chief of destruction, Beelzebub, the scorn of the angels and spitting of the righteous why wouldest thou do this? Thou wouldest crucify the King of glory and at his decease didst promise us great spoils of his death: like a fool thou knewest not what thou didst. For behold now, this Jesus putteth to flight by the brightness of his majesty all the darkness of death, and hath broken the strong depths of the prisons, and let out the prisoners and loosed them that were bound
Originally posted by defcon5 in reference to
Revelations 17:10-12
"17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."
Chronological Summary
"Seven kings" = 7 religious faiths of the Mediterranean region from a 5000 BCE to 95 CE religious perspective.
"Five have fallen" (ie. been superseded) = 1-5.
"One is" = 6.
"Other not yet come" = 7.
The "eighth" = 8. The "ten horns (kings)" = - -.
1) Babylonian gods
2) Egypt gods
3) Judaism
4) Greek Mythical gods
5) Roman Mythical gods
6) [B](Roman) Christianity[/B]
7) Islam
- - Waldensian, Lutherans, Anglicans, Episcopalians, Presbyterians,
- - Quakers, Baptists, Congregationalists, Mennonites, Methodists.
8) Mormonism
defcon5’s comment was…
This is an interesting concept from the first glance, but I am not really sure I understand it fully. My biggest question is what exactly are the ten kings supposed to do?
Originally posted by icybreeze
4.They tell you to pray to the Virgin Mary and through her you will reach God's ear.
Originally posted by PennKen2009
reply to post by icybreeze
2. Praying with repetetive words (rosary beads)
And this is wrong why? Hindus pray to their deities by repeating words through meditation, singing a hymn in any church, the chorus is a group of repetitive words. And do you even know the words on the rosary, its not just words, its meditating and reflecting on the lessons and events that take place in the Gospels of the New Testament during the times of Christ's life.
4.They tell you to pray to the Virgin Mary and through her you will reach God's ear.
When we pray to Mary or any of the saints and angels, we are not worshiping them as the Creator or father of all, I'm tired of people saying that praying to saints and all is wrong. We are NOT worshiping them. We are asking them, who are before the throne of God to ask the Almighty God to listen to our prayers and bless us who are on Earth. We do not worship them as if they are idols in ancient Rome or Greece, to punish enemies or anything like that. Like I said, we are praying to them to please remember us when they pray to God in Heaven.
Originally posted by icybreeze
why ask her to pray for you when you can pray yourself? that is the problem with the Catholic religion. they have put all these other middlemen that youu pray to so that they relay the message. it is not how God planned it.
Originally posted by EricD
I think that this is a legitimate thread
Originally posted by J.Smit
for that alone negates Mary's power of forgiving sins.
Originally posted by defcon5
Non-Canonical…
you and your Catholic Apologists showed up to ruin things
with your spamming of mostly off topic bible verses.
But that is of course your agenda here, isn’t it.
God can not hear you unless you attend a "church"? This is corruption at the highest and most obvious level. Designed so a few can control people, through a "fear" of God.
Originally posted by vashts121
Some people claim that "Ash Wednesday, where they put ash on your forehead, is so that when the Beast comes to earth ...
They also say the only way to be forgiven is to go to a priest and confess,
the Pope is the closest to God when God views us all on the same level.
They also pray to Mary, when they should be praying to Jesus.
And for baptism, ..
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Wrong.
1 - It's not a 'catholic thing'. It's a CHRISTIAN thing. ALL Christians are called upon to pray for each other. We ALL intercess for others when we pray for them. I have yet to see a Christian denomination that doesn't call for their congregations to pray for people. To intercede for others to God.
2 - It most definately IS what God planned. Read the scripture quotes. There are MANY more. God WANTS us to ask each other to pray for us. God EXPECTS us to pray for each other. That's intercession.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oh that's funny. Martin Luther didn't like the fact that the bible didn't support his interpretation so he tossed out books and ripped apart others. The ENTIRE bible is the Word of God. Not just the parts that Martin Luther liked.
Luther Bible
Initially Luther had a low view of the books of Esther, Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation. He called the Epistle of James "an epistle of straw," finding little in it that pointed to Christ and His saving work. He also had harsh words for the book of Revelation, saying that he could "in no way detect that the Holy Spirit produced it."[3] He had reason to question the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because the early church categorized these books as antilegomena, meaning that they were not accepted without reservation as canonical. Luther did not, however, remove them from his editions of the Scriptures. His views on some of these books changed in later years.
Luther chose to place in the Apocrypha, an inter-testamental section of his bible, those portions of the Old Testament found in the Greek Septuagint but not in the Hebrew Masoretic text. These were included in his earliest translation, but were later set aside as "good to read" but not as the inspired Word of God. The setting aside (or simple exclusion) of these texts from Bibles was eventually adopted by nearly all Protestants.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
... showed up to correct your (usual) errors.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
ALL were completely on topic as I showed.
Your interpretation is different and your complaint of 'spam' is
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Dead who stand before God are aware of our situations: Matthew 22:20, Luke 15:10; 1 Cor 4:9; Hebrews 12:1.
Mat 22:19 Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.
Mat 22:20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?
Mat 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Originally posted by FlyersFan
Discussion isn't agenda.
Originally posted by icybreeze
yes but the intention of the OP was to question why the Catholic religion knowingly does opposite of what the bible says..not mere interpretations but blatant acts. please see the examples i listed in the OP. when Jesus says no one can reach the Father but through me, he means just that. or call no one else "father" and the priest wants us to call him father..?