The Catholic religion blatantly defies God and his teachings. leads its members to perdition...why?

reply to post by shearder


I don’t think that bashing is the point here. The point is that the Catholic Church knowingly does things which are expressly against the scriptures, and they feel that they can rule lawyer their way around so those things appear legitimate to their parishioners. I have known a lot of folks who are Catholics, and I don’t have anything against them personally, but I do have an issue with some of the things that their Church has taught and done over the years. If Catholics are going to be so sensitive about being called on the carpet about the things their church has done, or teaches, maybe they should start questioning the people who make those rules, rather then picking fights with those who are properly interpreting the scripture.

Like it or not, the Catholic Church has done things that are blatantly wrong, which the rest of Christianity has had to pay for over the years. All of the rest of us Christians, who were not responsible for the Crusades or the inquisitions, have to constantly hear about what a violent religion Christianity is, based on the things that the Roman Catholic Church has done. We have to hear about how Christianity is a religion to control the masses, when in fact only Catholicism is responsible for using works based salvation and purgatory as a means of control.

Facts are facts, Roman Catholicism merged pagan beliefs of the Roman Empire, and its conquered nations into their version of Christianity, and has made excuse after excuse for doing that. They have hidden things not only from the rest of the World, but also from their membership specifically. They are responsible for changing schools of eschatology not only on their members, but also causing great confusion on those teachings in other Christian Religions as well. They killed, tortured, and burned at the stake many who spoke the truth on their mistakes, or simply went against their politics. These are historical facts, which can easily be proven, they are not speculation or bashing.

Someone here brought up reading the catechism, the funny thing is my churches catechism is exactly the same now as it was in the 1500’s when it was first written, do you know how many times the Catholic church has had to change catechisms, and ban old versions?
Ever wonder why were they so keen on ensuring that the common man did not have access to the scriptures for the majority of the last 2000 years?
As someone else here mentioned they put people to death simply for having translated and distributed the bible to the common man, now does that sound like an Christian Organization to anyone, or does that sound like someone trying to cover their tracks?

Originally posted by icybreeze
#2 thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image (all you got to do is look inside a Catholic church and see all those saints they pray to)

ok they blatantly disobey one..not too bad...

Hmmmm... for one that was in a Catholic school you surprise me. It is the same as if you have a photo of your mom, father, girlfriend etc. It isn't the statues and pictures Catholics pray to but use them are for remembrance!

Don't know how much simpler to put that.

reply to post by FlyersFan


ahhhhhhhh... a breath of fresh air
i could not have stated that better myself.

Originally posted by xHADEEZx
I went to a catholic school also i was obviously raised catholic. Now im older and i think religon is a joke. I do not believe in god that would be like me believing in the easter bunny. You can not prove or disprove god and you can not prove disprove the easter bunny.... i would never ask for money to spread his word i would do it just because its the right thing to do. CHURCH is a fraud and a rip off.

I didn't actually know how to respond to you with out actually being rude but I i got to the part of the easter bunny not being proven or dis-proven and i realized there is work to be done here. With regard to the easter bunny:
Check it out here

The Easter bunny has its origin in pre-Christian fertility lore. The Hare and the Rabbit were the most fertile animals known and they served as symbols of the new life during the Spring season.

pssssssst: the easter bunny doesn't exist. God on the other hand, for me - he exists. for you - it doesn't make any difference to me.

The church doesn't ask you for money to preach about God. They use money to help the sick and the needy etc etc. The priest gets a salary - as meager as it is - it isn't for his pocket. It also helps to maintain the church and keept it nice and neat cos the poor guy that comes to mow the lawn also needs to buy food for his family.

You can find much info if you look for it.

I agree, you shouldn't call a preist, pastor, or rabbi father. Our father is he who is almighty. I commend you on that but I don't think that they have some evil agenda or otherwise other then to praise Him.

Originally posted by J.Smit
The RCC ascribes John 14:6 to Mary. On that account alone, they deny Jesus His divine power of salvation. They are turning The Lord's Supper into vampirism, by proclaiming the wine actually becomes the blood of Christ; and cannibalism, by saying the bread (why they call it a "host" is another RCC mystery) becomes His actual flesh.

You were beaten to this vampirism comment in a different thread so i won't comment.

...Mary's power of forgiving sins.

Mary doesn't forgive our sins - she can pray for the sinners but she doesn't forgive sins. I don't know if i missed it where someone says she does hence your post. But, no, she doesn't have anything to do with forgiving sins.

Originally posted by jondular
The Catholic church changed the sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
How can they do that and still keep the true Sabbath holy?

I have posted an answer to this in another "bash the Catholic" type thread. However, if you do a search you will find the answer.

Let me ask if Jesus was hung by a rope would that replace the cross?

No, it would never have replaced the cross because if they used a rope there would never have been a cross to replace.

The Lords prayer does not mention Mary or any saint.

Your point to that?

There is no gentle way to tell you how evil this church really is so look it up!

Perhaps you can summarize?

This paster Hagge on tv has released a book that he says in it that Jesus was not the son of God!

So i guess cos he released a book he is 100% correct? And i will release a book and say that paster Hagge is a cross dressing woman and i will also be correct. There are many who also proclaimed they were God - see "Waco" etc... So who did he say was the son of God? I think this Hagge wants to change religion - simple as that.

Christmas and santa (move those letters around and you have satan)

I tried Christmas and i didn't get satan. There are many words we can switch letters and find a word we are looking for. Sorry, i think i missed the point you were making.

Originally posted by defcon5
...The point is that the Catholic Church knowingly does things which are expressly against the scriptures, and they feel that they can rule lawyer their way around so those things appear legitimate to their parishioners.

I don't disagree totally. However, we need to keep in mind that it isn't the Catholic Church it is some of the individuals that abuse their positions for their own gains or their own "empires" they try and create and almost have their own strain of Catholicism within the church.

I have known a lot of folks who are Catholics, and I don’t have anything against them personally, but I do have an issue with some of the things that their Church has taught and done over the years.

The church has done much wrong in the thousands of years it has been running but it has done more good than bad. We can't blame what happened in the past on the people of today. A lot of good is being done these days by the Catholic Church.

...maybe they should start questioning the people who make those rules, rather then picking fights with those who are properly interpreting the scripture.

Who is picking a fight? I assume you don't mean here. I don't think anyone can really, properly, interpret the scriptures. The scriptures is not one book but many by many authors. There WILL be contradictions. People need to be lead by their faith and not literally by what is in the book written by many hands.

We have to hear about how Christianity is a religion to control the masses, when in fact only Catholicism is responsible for using works based salvation and purgatory as a means of control.

Like i said, some have used their powers to their own benefit. This does not echo the thoughts and feelings and actions of all Catholics. Those that believe it does are very close minded.

They killed, tortured, and burned at the stake many who spoke the truth on their mistakes, or simply went against their politics. These are historical facts, which can easily be proven, they are not speculation or bashing.

I am glad you mention these are historical facts. Ok a little off topic but the same can be said for what countries have done to minority groups for hundreds of years. But we don't classify people based on the fact that they are from one country or another. In so saying, again, much of what was done was based on the power handed to some which was abused. Catholics have also been persecuted for being catholic. More catholics have died than those said to have been witches.

...how many times the Catholic church has had to change catechisms, and ban old versions?

I know it has changed many times. It has changed much during the years due to "modern day" actualities. Much was based on the book being literal and as the world has changed so the Catholic Church has had to change the teachings because it was realized some things were wrong.

Ever wonder why were they so keen on ensuring that the common man did not have access to the scriptures for the majority of the last 2000 years?
As someone else here mentioned they put people to death simply for having translated and distributed the bible to the common man, now does that sound like an Christian Organization to anyone, or does that sound like someone trying to cover their tracks?

It was the lust for control over people who were not educated enough to see the truth. It is much easy to control someone who is uneducated than to control someone who is. That was the aim. It was wrong - period.
Being a Catholic myself, i have never read the bible cover to cover. I base my belief in God on faith. Man is fallible - Man's teachings are fallible. ALL religions are fallible as it tends to serve the agendas of many leading those religions. However, though there are many contradictions one needs to know what to follow and if one is to be fanatical, you get those, then - yes, you will have people doing things they shouldn't or abusing their powers and position. But again it is the same in all religions.

But people need to know that you cannot paint everyone with the same brush and generalize and say "Catholics" because that is the collective for all Catholics.

Originally posted by shearder
Catholic Church it is some of the individuals that abuse their positions for their own gains or their own "empires" they try and create and almost have their own strain of Catholicism within the church.

Maybe that is why I don’t feel that this is bashing as we are discussing things that happened historically, not so much things that happen now. Today I think the church is mostly harmless, however it still is saddled with old theology that was never correct from the beginning. Therein lays the problem, partly due to papal infallibility. According to Infallibility the pope cannot err when he speaks on matters of faith or morals, and that means all the proceeding popes doctrines have to remain standing as well. I am not sure if you all still follow infallibility as you once did, but I don’t believe it has ever been withdrawn 100%. To make matters even worse, some of the issues that folks have with Catholic dogma are so entrenched in the members that the church may never be able to correct them.

Originally posted by shearder
The church has done much wrong in the thousands of years it has been running but it has done more good than bad. We can't blame what happened in the past on the people of today. A lot of good is being done these days by the Catholic Church.

Maybe, but then too what I was originally talking about was that the prophetic beast and "little horn" matched up almost one for one with the Roman Empire, the Roman Catholic Church, and the Pontifex. As long as they continue to follow those same doctrines that are specifically wrong in the eyes of God, then they still fit that set of criteria. I will admit though that they are mostly harmless since the late 1700’s, at which point the new beast took the place of the old Roman one.

Originally posted by shearder
Who is picking a fight? I assume you don't mean here. I don't think anyone can really, properly, interpret the scriptures. The scriptures is not one book but many by many authors. There WILL be contradictions. People need to be lead by their faith and not literally by what is in the book written by many hands.

Maybe picking a fight is a bit harsh sounding, maybe its more like complaining about folks discussing this.
As to the contradictions, you are correct and as a Christian I can accept that factor without it affecting my faith. The one place I have a hard time accepting that is when an organization ends up fitting prophecy written thousands of years before it, and when its teachings directly conflict with the words of Christ in the four gospels.

Originally posted by shearder
Like i said, some have used their powers to their own benefit. This does not echo the thoughts and feelings and actions of all Catholics. Those that believe it does are very close minded.

Again true, but most of these things were done at the highest level of the Catholic church in direct edicts from various Pontifex’s. Not only were they done by one or two bad ones either, the inquisition ran for close to 1000 years… That is a lot of bad Popes in a row. It has been said that if the actual numbers of the Christians killed as heretics were ever known, that they dwarf the German Holocaust.

Originally posted by shearder
I am glad you mention these are historical facts. Ok a little off topic but the same can be said for what countries have done to minority groups for hundreds of years.

This is why the Beasts are all countries, world superpowers of their time to be specific. Also I believe that the German and Japanese people took a lot of heat for what their countries did during WWII. Not that I am indorsing such activity, but I am simply pointing out that it does happen. Now granted this all happened so long ago, that no one today is responsible for it, however I feel that anyone who is a member of such an organization should give some serious thought to what that organization once did.

Originally posted by shearder
Catholics have also been persecuted for being catholic. More catholics have died than those said to have been witches.

News to me, when and were did this happen?
Are you talking about the stuff in Ireland? That was on a fairly small scale, and it was a two way fight between Protestants and Catholics.
As to witches, the Catholic Church used to burn them on a regular basis in Europe, I seem to recall that they burned between 40,000 to 60,000 women for witchcraft.

Originally posted by shearder
I know it has changed many times. It has changed much during the years due to "modern day" actualities. Much was based on the book being literal and as the world has changed so the Catholic Church has had to change the teachings because it was realized some things were wrong.

If they stuck to the scripture, and not to making up their own rules, it would never have to change. As I said my churches catechism has remained exactly as it is for over 500 years now.

Originally posted by shearder
It was the lust for control over people who were not educated enough to see the truth. It is much easy to control someone who is uneducated than to control someone who is. That was the aim. It was wrong - period.

Then why do they still support salvation through works and grace, and not justification by grace alone?

Originally posted by shearder
Being a Catholic myself, i have never read the bible cover to cover.

And they don’t want you too. They do not consider a normal layperson such as you or me qualified to properly understand what is in the Bible. In modern times they don’t come out and say not to read it so much, but its still in your dogma, look into it.

Originally posted by shearder
But again it is the same in all religions.

Not in a true Christian religion. Any religion claiming to be Christian and persecuting anyone is not Christian, as this is against the teachings of Christ.

Mahatma Gandhi considered Jesus one of his main teachers and inspirations for nonviolent resistance, saying "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Originally posted by defcon5
I am not sure if you all still follow infallibility as you once did, but I don’t believe it has ever been withdrawn 100%.

Infallibility is perfection and i don't believe any one of any religious background is perfect nor do we all follow perfection. I know we ALL follow a belief that is fallible to some extent.

To make matters even worse, some of the issues that folks have with Catholic dogma are so entrenched in the members that the church may never be able to correct them.

Possibly you are correct. No matter what is done fathers will pass down to their sons their ideas of what they see as others failings. This also holds true for racism etc. No matter what Catholics do there will always be a stigma attached to what the catholic church has done. i.e. a little old lady goes to church on Sunday because she believes in God but because someone doesn't like the Catholic church they walk through the doors and shoot everyone including her. It happened but she wasn't the one running the inquisition.

...those same doctrines that are specifically wrong in the eyes of God, then they still fit that set of criteria.

I cannot see, regardless of what i believe is wrong in the bible, how someone can point a finger and say "That and that is wrong in the eyes of God". Murder is wrong, stealing is wrong but assuming they know what God is thinking, at anytime of the day or night about what is wrong or what is right, is speculation and goes hand in hand with what they themselves have learned in their religions and that THEY assume they know what God has said and what they know is correct. I can point a finger at another religion and say "in Gods eyes that is wrong" - how the hell would i know? I would be basing that on what I believe.

...when its teachings directly conflict with the words of Christ in the four gospels.

I don't believe anyone actually knows what the words of Christ are or were. It is not written by Christ himself. There are a couple of variations to stories and the same holds true for the bible considering how many authors there were - i would venture too much suffers the Chinese telephone syndrome. I don't believe we know exactly what Christ said. How much they contradict what Christ actually said is again speculation. We have no recordings. Though there are contradictions in the bible itself, i do not argue that, what contradicts what Christ said if we do not know for certain what his words were. That's why we need to live in faith and not by what is written word for word in the bible.

That is a lot of bad Popes in a row. It has been said that if the actual numbers of the Christians killed as heretics were ever known, that they dwarf the German Holocaust.

Possibly but I don't believe it would be that bad. However, what i do believe is that the Church killed it's own - as you say, for heresy. It was a power thing and the leaders of the day exercising their power.

...this all happened so long ago, that no one today is responsible for it, however I feel that anyone who is a member of such an organization should give some serious thought to what that organization once did.

Sure, I have thought about it but what do want to happen to fix the past? Since you used the holocaust as an example, i will ask, what is the average German doing about the holocaust? There is really nothing he can do to undo what the Nazi's did. I am not asking for an answer because it has passed and Germany has changed and so has the Catholic church. They don't rule like they used to. Catholics cannot help those murdered as heretics.

News to me, when and were did this happen?

I believe it isn't only news to you because no one would really look for "Catholics persecuted" but rather "Persecuted by Catholics." it seems to offer more gratification. However, if you do a search with those words you will get 1.9 million results. Even is 0.01% is real that's still 19000 results. Ok if 75% were the same that's still 4750 cases. Ok even if 1 were true you would find at least this:
Source

...millions and millions of Catholics - lay people, bishops and priests were murdered, jailed and exiled by communist agents only because they believed and practiced the Catholic Faith.

Still happening:

Islam which is now referred to by confused Catholics as a "religion of peace", has shown little sign of letting up on its fourteen-hundred year campaign to eliminate Christianity. While the Pope welcomed the construction of a mosque in Rome almost completely financed by Saudi royalty, the construction of a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia is strictly forbidden. Measures Catholic nations used to take to prevent the spread of error are subjected to the harsh condemnation of both secular revisionists and modern Catholics alike. But those same tactics employed in the Arabian counties of the Middle East are ignored out of a relativist sense of "tolerance".

...and has anyone considered the following:
3,000,000 Catholics murdered

Catholics too, were targets of the Nazi killing machine. At Auschwitz, 3,000,000 Polish Catholics were murdered, including thousands of priests, 20% of Poland’s clerical class ("priest swine," as the Nazis called them). It needs to be added that papal diplomacy and underground assistance were more effective in saving Jewish lives from the Nazis than they were at saving Catholic lives from the Communists in Soviet Russia.

Now i am not saying, with the above, that it makes it right what the Catholic church did in the past.

Then why do they still support salvation through works and grace, and not justification by grace alone?

Because by works we will have salvation by not sinning. By doing good instead of evil should be second nature. Hope that answered your question.

In modern times they don’t come out and say not to read it so much, but its still in your dogma, look into it.

You are 100% correct. They do always say read your bible etc. They don't say "you better read it or else." One has a choice. I chose to only read what i want when i want and i certainly don't carry one around with me.

Not in a true Christian religion. Any religion claiming to be Christian and persecuting anyone is not Christian, as this is against the teachings of Christ.

Catholicism is a Christian religion. Or you are saying i am not a Christian because i am Catholic. I know Catholics who are NOT Christian. I also know people of other "Christian religions" who are NOT Christian. It is people who are Christian through deeds etc. A building with 4 walls makes NO one Christian just because it is a church regardless of religion. It is the people not the religion that kills people.

[edit on 12/11/2007 by shearder]

Originally posted by shearder
Murder is wrong

Ok, what do you call torturing someone to death for printing a bible for the common man?
The RCC rule lawyered that into heresy.

Originally posted by shearder
stealing is wrong

You should read the 95 thesis of Luther, The whole point was that the Clergy was stealing money from the commoners to pay for bribes, and extravagance.
Again, rule lawyered the same way as purgatory, the crusades, the inquisition, Papal infallibility, veneration, salvation through works, and Intercession.

Originally posted by shearder
I can point a finger at another religion and say "in Gods eyes that is wrong" - how the hell would i know? I would be basing that on what I believe.

I am not debating subjects like if its ok to eat ham, I am debating things that are clearly and repeatedly defined as incorrect teachings in the Bible.

Originally posted by shearder
I don't believe anyone actually knows what the words of Christ are or were. It is not written by Christ himself.

But the gospels pretty well agree on what Christ said, four different books from four different men. God ensured that through multiple witnesses that the true words and meaning would be conveyed in the gospels.

Originally posted by shearder
Sure, I have thought about it but what do want to happen to fix the past? Since you used the holocaust as an example, i will ask, what is the average German doing about the holocaust? There is really nothing he can do to undo what the Nazi's did.

I am a huge history buff, I collect antiques, and I always wanted a full set WWII soldier equipment from both sides to display. American stuff is very easy to get, but you cannot even acquire German insignias as 60 years later it’s still against some law. How come the same thing does not apply to the RCC? They did far more heinous things then the Germans ever did. You ever hear of sawing, or being “drawn, hung, and quartered”…

Originally posted by shearder
...millions and millions of Catholics - lay people, bishops and priests were murdered, jailed and exiled by communist agents only because they believed and practiced the Catholic Faith.

Ummmm…
Well the Russians did not allow any religion outside of Russian Orthodox, so it was not just Catholics that were persecuted. Maybe they just wined about it the loudest.

Originally posted by shearder
Islam which is now referred to by confused Catholics as a "religion of peace", has shown little sign of letting up on its fourteen-hundred year campaign to eliminate Christianity. While the Pope welcomed the construction of a mosque in Rome almost completely financed by Saudi royalty, the construction of a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia is strictly forbidden.

Again, this is not about Catholics specifically, they will not allow any Christian organization to build a church or teach there.

Originally posted by shearder
It needs to be added that papal diplomacy and underground assistance were more effective in saving Jewish lives from the Nazis than they were at saving Catholic lives from the Communists in Soviet Russia.

Again not just Catholics, the communists outlawed all religion.
Maybe a better question is why the Catholic church helped many Nazi’s escape after WWII?

Originally posted by shearder
Because by works we will have salvation by not sinning. By doing good instead of evil should be second nature. Hope that answered your question.

As a Christian you should realize that the bible very clearly states:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Its not works and grace, its through grace alone lest any man should boast. Now its good and correct that as a Christian you should want to do good works, but your salvation is a gift of God and not from anything you have personally done.

Originally posted by shearder
Or you are saying i am not a Christian because i am Catholic.

I cannot judge your heart to tell if you’re a Christian or not. I am sure that most who are Catholics are Christians, but the religion as a whole does things that are wrong from a Christian perspective. I feel a lot of good people are being lead astray by bad teaching. If you think about that for a second, where would you expect to find Satan on this earth?

Would he be hanging out with unbelievers who he already has?
Maybe with Satanists?
Or would it be smarter for him to be hanging out trying to push bad dogma, and infiltrate the largest community of Christians on the Planet?
Which is the most logical location from a tactical standpoint?

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by shearder
Murder is wrong

Ok, what do you call torturing someone to death for printing a bible for the common man?
The RCC rule lawyered that into heresy.

Originally posted by shearder
stealing is wrong

Again, rule lawyered the same way as purgatory, the crusades, the inquisition, Papal infallibility, veneration, salvation through works, and Intercession.

I think we are both agreeing here that was was done in the past was wrong. What i was saying is that we know, as human beings, the usual things that are wrong. We don't need a bible to tell us what is wrong or not. Torturing to death is covered by murder. I am not sure if you are on the same page as me. I think we are and are basically agreeing to the same things - within reason. Yes, the Catholic church did rule with what suited them. There are still instances where they maintain the same rules. Much has changed but some things won't like salvation though works - ok that one is debatable but again we can't sit back and say "yeah i have faith".

But the gospels pretty well agree on what Christ said, four different books from four different men. God ensured that through multiple witnesses that the true words and meaning would be conveyed in the gospels.

But again, written by man. Man has a tendency to embellish or omit as he feels it services his own agenda. Yes, we will read that God said that we will read the true meanings would be conveyed in the Gospels, and they were, as i said, written by man. Each person going to see a movie will come out and give you a different account of what the movie showed and will embellish on those parts that held the most meaning or excitement for that specific person. This is what has happened in the Gospels. Each experienced the same thing but each has their own version of the truth from his own perspective.

They did far more heinous things then the Germans ever did. You ever hear of sawing, or being “drawn, hung, and quartered”…

Yes i have. I don't see the relevance? What would someone want to outlaw from the Catholic Church?

Originally posted by shearder
...millions and millions of Catholics - lay people, bishops and priests were murdered, jailed and exiled by communist agents only because they believed and practiced the Catholic Faith.

Ummmm…
Well the Russians did not allow any religion outside of Russian Orthodox, so it was not just Catholics that were persecuted. Maybe they just wined about it the loudest.

But then i assume by your response that you got the point. In fact if Catholics whined the loudest it would be better known. SO i recon Catholics whined the least - just MO. This is a discussion about Catholicism - is it not? They were also involved.

Originally posted by shearder
Islam which is now referred to by confused Catholics as a "religion of peace", has shown little sign of letting up on its fourteen-hundred year campaign to eliminate Christianity. While the Pope welcomed the construction of a mosque in Rome almost completely financed by Saudi royalty, the construction of a Catholic Church in Saudi Arabia is strictly forbidden.

Again, this is not about Catholics specifically, they will not allow any Christian organization to build a church or teach there.

We are discussing Catholicism and this was just a little extra. Unless it is only about Catholicism when it suites the thread?

Originally posted by shearder
It needs to be added that papal diplomacy and underground assistance were more effective in saving Jewish lives from the Nazis than they were at saving Catholic lives from the Communists in Soviet Russia.

Again not just Catholics, the communists outlawed all religion.
Maybe a better question is why the Catholic church helped many Nazi’s escape after WWII?

Correct, but Catholics helped save more Jews than they did Catholics. With regard to saving Nazi's - there is much miscommunicated about Pius - much which can be cleared up with a bit of reading.

As a Christian you should realize that the bible very clearly states:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Its not works and grace, its through grace alone lest any man should boast....

Yes if you have faith you will be saved by grace. Now if we have faith - we are saved - cool. BUT, we still want to know God and want to be like him in terms of being a good person and in doing that we will automatically do the right things or good. It's not enough to sit back and go "oh yeah, i am saved by grace" and then do nothing else.

I cannot judge your heart to tell if you’re a Christian or not. I am sure that most who are Catholics are Christians, but the religion as a whole does things that are wrong from a Christian perspective.

Wrong. It's people not the religion that do wrong. The Catholic Church had leaders that did wrong and as we have already discussed it was people not the religion. It's how they interpret the scriptures to suit themselves.

I feel a lot of good people are being lead astray by bad teaching. If you think about that for a second, where would you expect to find Satan on this earth?

Satan will be wherever people allow him - whether knowingly or not. Satan isn't really that clever - he just uses peoples weaknesses against them. That's nothing that a human wouldn't do either. I don't find him very original at all. I also don't believe he is part of the Catholic Church as a whole - or at all. I am not going to sit here and try and convert anyone. These are my opinions. There are sites that punt the Satan in the Catholic Church thing and that's just par for the coarse. People will do they best and throw their best shots to discredit the Catholic Church - hey let them at it. But again, it's people not the religion. I don't care for the rant about Satan being in the Church. I don't go to Church looking for Satan - i go there for me and that's it. Hey, if he is there, good for him, he may learn a thing or three

Hey don't get me wrong - this is not a fight I think we are being pretty civil.

Originally posted by jakyll


The fact that the holidays you talk of still exist just shows you the strength of Paganism.Even little things proove this.A good example is people who,when trying to avert a jinx or bad luck,will say,"touch wood." A similar gesture was used by pagans to avert evil.

This has just re-awakened my desire to found a Pagan Islam and go around forcing it down everyone's collective throats.

"There are loads of gods, and you'll bloody well like it!"

Originally posted by defcon5
For Catholics who follow both a Works and Grace based salvation schema,

Catholics believe that faith in Christ is what saves.
Catholics also believe what James said - that faith without works is dead.
However, works are not necessary for salvation.
www.catholic.com...

the Catholic Chruch believes in the construct of Purgatory,

You mean the SCRIPTURAL construct of Purgatory.
www.catholic.com...
www.catholic.com...
You have your anti-purgatory interpretation.
We have our pro-purgatory interpretation.

Originally posted by NuclearPaul
God does not hear you unless through a translator? God can not hear you unless you attend a "church"? This is corruption at the highest and most obvious level.

That's down right silly. Didn't bother to read the thread .. did ya? Those are some strange ideas. Read the Catechism.
www.catholic.com...

Originally posted by John_Q_Llama
If God is omnipresent, why pray to Mary or some saint, ghost, or other...thing?

You didn't read the thread either, did ya'? INTERCESSION. We are all supposed to pray for each other. We are allowed and encouraged to ask others to pray for us. Read the thread.
www.catholic.com...

Who gave the papacy the authority to say if a person is saved or not? Who gave priests the authority to absolve a person of their sins?

Christ. Matthew 16:18. Oh ... and the Church doesn't say if someone is saved or not. God is the one that determines if someone is in a state of mortal sin or not. Read the Catechism.
www.catholic.com...

Originally posted by Darkweave
do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

The Rosary isn't 'vain repetition'. Each and every prayer is new when it is said, and there is a spiritual meditation that goes along with each prayer. Nothing 'vain' about it.
www.catholic.com...

Originally posted by defcon5
Maybe you should start studying real history instead of Catholic Propaganda…

Maybe you should start studying real history instead of Anti-Catholic propaganda ..

Luther chose to place ...

Ahh yes .. Luther chose. Luther .. who wanted to throw out the 10 commandments because they were 'impossible'. Luther ... who couldn't follow them so he wanted to be rid of them. Luther ... who approved of adultery and rape said "if the wife is unwilling then take the maid".

Luther chose ... Luther chose. Failed priest Luther screwed with the bible according to his own festering notions.

a Nun ...She was rather shocked by what she found out, and had never heard the real reason for the Protestant Reformation.

bs alert.

No, discussion is not, but that is not what you normally do. I can show you repeatedly in these threads were you start lobbying both in the thread,

Riiiiiiiiight. Someone comes along with a strong different opinion from you, along with facts, and you throw out the words 'lobbying' and 'agenda'. Is that paranoia or just frustration at not having a wide open forum for yourself to spout whatever you want without having any fact-checking?

ATS rules are that there are not supposed to be repeat threads on subjects AND that personal interpretation of scripture is to be in BTS. That’s what all this is. Personal interpretation and it has all been discussed before. That isn’t ‘lobbying’ – it’s just a fact. Of course, that truth may interfere with the agenda of those who wish to litter ATS with anti-Catholic threads ...

I could just as easily say that you are the one with an agenda. And you are the one lobbying for the anti-Catholic Jack Chicks of the world.

Get on topic. The topic is - Yet another anti-Catholic spew spree which has been massively covered previously in BTS but is now under the guise of this ATS title 'The Catholic religion blatantly defies God and his teachings, leads it's members to perdition ... why?"

Originally posted by defcon5
I don’t think that bashing is the point here.

I definately do.

The point is that the Catholic Church knowingly does things which are expressly against the scriptures,

The Catholic church is based upon both Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. This has been discussed MANY times in BTS. (as you well know). Scripture states - hold fast to the traditions that have been passed on. That's what the Church does.

rather then picking fights with those who are properly interpreting the scripture.

So your interpretation is the 'properly interpreted' one? Now you are behaving exactly as those who you are complaining about. You are the one who is absolutely right with interpretation, eh? (Pot calling the kettle black) Oh .. and showing how your personal interpretation of scripture is interpreted differently by well educated theologians isn’t ‘picking a fight’… it’s DISCUSSION.

do you know how many times the Catholic church has had to change catechisms, and ban old versions?

As people, and institutions, age .. their understanding matures.

Show a baby a ball and it sees just a round thing with colors.
Later, the toddler understands the names of the colors.
Later, the child understands that the ball is a toy.
Later, the growing child understands that you can play many games with it.
Later, the adult understands that the games played with balls can be bet on, or played with on teams.

The same thing goes with people and churches with it comes to understanding scripture. With age comes wisdom and deeper understanding.
www.catholic.com...

Ever wonder why were they so keen on ensuring that the common man did not have access to the scriptures for the majority of the last 2000 years?

:shk: Up until the 1500s most 'common men' couldn't read. The bible was available in Universities througout Europe. Scripture was read in the churches during mass (which was daily) for those who couldn't read. No one was denied acces to AUTHENTIC bibles. Your insinuation that the authentic bible was withheld from men is just more anti-Catholic propaganda.

Originally posted by defcon5
partly due to papal infallibility. According to Infallibility the pope cannot err when he speaks on matters of faith or morals,

Not exactly. It means that the Pope, when speaking ex-cathedra, and in union with all the bishops of the church, says that a belief of the church is certain. It is also rarely used.

Originally posted by defcon5
If they stuck to the scripture, and not to making up their own rules, it would never have to change.

Scripture AND Sacred Tradition. We have both. Scripture supports this. And I have already addressed how understanding deepens with time.

Originally posted by shearder
Being a Catholic myself, i have never read the bible cover to cover.

Originally posted by defcon5
And they don’t want you too. They do not consider a normal layperson such as you or me qualified to properly understand what is in the Bible. In modern times they don’t come out and say not to read it so much, but its still in your dogma, look into it.

Oh please. EVERY Catholic who attends Mass knows this is dead wrong. On Sundays there are 3 bible readings. During weekday Masses there are 2 bible readings. The entire bible is read during Mass from the pulpit. The ENTIRE bible. The Scriptures are in the pews. Bibles are available everywhere. There are bible studies in the Catholic Churches. There are bible studies online and on EWTN (the Catholic TV Network). Bibles. Bibles. Bibles. Everywhere. All the time.

OF course we are encouraged to seek out people who have studied the bible so we can all study together and come to a deeper understanding. But we are NOT discouraged from reading on our own and are in fact ENCOURAGED to do so.

a lot of bad popes in a row

So what? people sin. There are a lot of bad protestant leaders out there. There are a lot of bad presidents. A lot of bad everyone ... The Catholic church has MEN who lead it. So do Protestants. So do the Jews and the Muslims. Men sin. So what?

Originally posted by defcon5
it still is saddled with old theology that was never correct from the beginning.

According to your interpretation.

Any religion claiming to be Christian and persecuting anyone is not Christian, as this is against the teachings of Christ.

Oh? How about someone who claims to be Christian and yet persecutes Catholics (who are Christians as well)? Guess that's not a Christian person either.



[edit on 11/12/2007 by FlyersFan]

reply to post by shearder

Satan isn't really that clever - he just uses peoples weaknesses against them.

Really?

He has survived this long without God feeling the need to destroy him.
He has survived even though Jesus sacraficed himself to save us from sin.
According to some people he has corrupted the biggest of the Christian faiths.
And he is now gearing up to start WW3....no,wait.....thats the Christians!

What is a weakness in one person can be a strength in another!!

reply to post by C.C.Benjamin

This has just re-awakened my desire to found a Pagan Islam and go around forcing it down everyone's collective throats.

It has?
Why's that then?

Hi all, excellent post OP.

First off I will tell you what the Catholic Church is responsible for and that is spiritual murder; spiritual murder I hear you ask, what is that?
Well allow me to enlighten those of you that do not know; to God physical death is nothing for he is able to easily create a new physical body for our spirit to be placed into. Spiritual murder is much worse (In fact it is considered the worst crime possible in Gods eyes) in the eyes of God for it cuts us off from Gods truth, Gods spirit and once that happens you are beyond Gods help, you will receive eternal death and this is not hell as some would have you believe but simply death with no resurrection, no chance at life again, you simply cease to exist once you die.
The Catholic Church has and is the biggest perpetrator of spiritual murder as by changing Saturday worship to Sunday and making up the fables we know as Easter and Christmas has worked to cut us off from Gods teaching. To God this is the most heinous act to be performed from one human to another for once we are down this road there is nothing God can do other than hope that we return to the truth but with the simple fact that there are about 1.2 billion followers of the catholic faith at this moment in time plus the many billions who have died in the past believing this false teaching; well you begin to see that the catholic church will have a lot to answer for.

Quote
The Romish [speaking of the Catholic Church] doctrine
concerning purgatory, pardon, worshiping, and adoration,
as well of images as of relics, and also invocation of
saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon
no warrant of Scripture, but repugnant to the Word of
God. (Article XIV.—Of Purgatory)

Quotes
The change of the Sabbath is the sign or mark of the
authority of the Romish church [Catholic Church] . . .
The keeping of the counterfeit Sabbath is the reception
of the mark. (Ellen G. White, Great Controversy, Vol.
4: 281)

Sunday-keeping must be the mark of the beast . . . The
reception of his mark must be something that involves the
greatest offense that can be committed against God.
(Elder U. Smith, The Marvel of Nations: 170, 183)

The Sunday Sabbath is purely a child of the Papacy. It is
the mark of the beast. (Advent Review, Vol. I, No. 2,
August, 1850)

Sunday-keeping is an institution of the first beast, and
ALL who submit to obey this institution emphatically
worship the first beast and receive his mark, “the mark of
the beast.” . . . Those who worship the beast and his
image by observing the first day are certainly idolaters, as
were the worshippers of the golden calf. (Advent Review
Extra, August, 1850: 10-11)

Here we find the mark of the beast. The very act of
changing the Sabbath into Sunday, on the part of the
Catholic Church, without any authority from the Bible.
(Ellen G. White, The Mark of the Beast: 23)

Continued in next post.

And final quote regarding the joke of the holy trinity.
After some discussion the question was asked, “If the
Trinity is not a Biblical teaching, how did it become a
doctrine of Christendom?”
He [Emperor Theodosius] established the creed of the
Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and
convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to
clarify the formula [for the Trinity doctrine].
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same
level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom's
Trinity began to come into focus.
WHY, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets
teach his people about the Trinity? At the least, would
Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the
Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire
hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this
instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central
doctrine" of faith?
Are Christians to believe that centuries after Christ and
after having inspired the writing of the Bible, God would
back the formulation of a doctrine that was unknown to
his servants for thousands of years, one that is an
"inscrutable mystery" "beyond the grasp of human
reason," one that admittedly had a pagan background and
was "largely a matter of church politics"?

The testimony of history is clear: The Trinity teaching is a
deviation from the truth, an apostatizing from it.
(www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_04.htm)

Originally posted by shearder
It needs to be added that papal diplomacy and underground assistance were more effective in saving Jewish lives from the Nazis than they were at saving Catholic lives from the Communists in Soviet Russia.

This could not be further from the truth; this sort of quote makes me physically ill.
Check out this link for the truth on the pope and Hitler’s relationship-
emperors-clothes.com...
Where was the pope when the 1000 Jews were dragged out of Rome and off to the concentration camps by the Nazis?
Country’s pleaded and begged the pope to speak out against what Hitler was doing and he never lifted a finger apart from making some very weak statement which never even mentioned at all what Hitler was doing, it was a very general statement which could have been applied to most countries at that time.
People need to open their eyes and see the catholic religion for what it truly is. People will be spitting feathers when they read this but hey ho you cannot please everyone.

Peace be upon you my brethren.

P.S. feel free to u2u me any questions you may have.

reply to post by WeAreOne


Welcome

The Catholic Church has and is the biggest perpetrator of spiritual murder as by changing Saturday worship to Sunday and making up the fables we know as Easter and Christmas has worked to cut us off from Gods teaching.

Its always made sense to me that the day of worship was changed as another way for Christians to distance themselves from Judaism.

Easter & Christmas are not fables,they are Pagan and they are Sacred.Christianity hijacked these holidays to try and show their superiority to Paganism.

reply to post by icybreeze

1. They ask their members to call the priest "Father"

Many titles and names in the Catholic Church come from ancient Rome so its possible that it derived from the name for the members of the senate,Patres Conscripti;Conscript Fathers.