"Its like watching a tennis match, and one side is suprised the ball is coming back"

Kudos to ATS member Copernicus for giving me the title of this thread - it was his reply to something I had written in the "Weakened and Vulnerable" thread, and it made me chuckle a bit

But anyway, to my point - I'm going to try and put it as succinctly as I can.

Iran, a nation which has not invaded any other in living memory (except in response to an attack). Appears to be ruffling more than a few feathers with the esteemed right wing posters on ATS, because it has said it will defend itself as needed should it be attacked, and may actually carry out a few attacks of its own if the bombs start falling in downtown Tehran.

Imagine a country saying it would defend itself from agression against it? Who'd have thought that might happen?

"We're gonna bomb you because you said you'd defend yourself if we bombed you."

I mean, seriously, what ARE some people thinking?

I mean, that would be like people complaining about people possibly arming the other side in an ideaological war against a superpower that had invaded a sovereign nation, wouldn't it? Of course that never happens at all....

I thought I recognized the title of this thread.

Good initiative to start a new thread about this.

US to Iran: You have a secret nuclear program for over 20 years that was just disclosed in the recent years, yet it is supposedly "peaceful" yet you have not fully disclosed this program and yet you also threaten other countries (Israel-who is SURROUNDED by avaowed enemies and have been invaded numerous times). If you even think about it, we're gonna bomb you into submission.

Oh and this is no tennis match. When the game really begins, expect to see many 120MPH "Aces" (if you like tennis terms).

There ya go.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by princeofpeace]

Originally posted by princeofpeace
US to Iran: You have a secret nuclear program for over 20 years that was just disclosed in the recent years, yet it is supposedly "peaceful" yet you have not fully disclosed this program and yet you also threaten other countries (Israel-who is SURROUNDED by avaowed enemies and have been invaded numerous times). If you even think about it, we're gonna bomb you into submission.

I'm fairly sure you meant this.

"Iran, you signed the NPT, which basically says that you aren't going to be sharing any nuclear technology with anyone but are entitled to carry out civilian nuclear research for power generation purposes, and have repeatedly said you aren't seeking weapons, and have also allowed inspections by the UN of your facilities - BUT you can't have them because our buddies who never signed the NPT and would never dream of allowing UN nuclear inspectors near their facilities developed a secret weapons programme AND also shared the technology with the South Africans doesn't think its a good idea because it restores a balance of power to the region. - oh yes, and you have oil which those North Koreans who developed the nukes while we sat on our backsides and did bugger all don't have, so its in our interests too."




[edit on 30/0907/07 by neformore]

I was watching CNN about 30 minutes ago, have to keep up with the propaganda and all. Anyway, Blitzer had a guest on (can't remember his name) who wrote an article about how the US administration has changed it's course on Iran. To sum up the interview: American's did not buy the whole "We have to take out Iran now because they are a nuclear threat" scenario so the new course is "We have to bomb certain areas of Iran because they are helping to murder our boy's" The guest went on to say that he does believe that before Bush leaves office he will have his way and will invade Iran with or without final approval, that this redirection is to try to get the Brits and France on board along with some of the American public. He also said that Israel is screaming all or nothing, take them out, he pretty much made it sound like Israel is leading the pack for an all out war with Iran.
My opinion, our boy's are being murdered because of our administration, the blood is on their hands. Since the fearmongering approach didnt work with Amercan's they are now going to try to pull some heartstrings. I don't know if this approach will work or not to change public opinion about invading Iraq, I am assuming we will be called unpatriotic and that we dont stand behind our troops if we dont cave.
I am astounded that this administration has not even been independently investigated, where is the outrage? Clinton is investigated for a lie about a sexual act, Bush is never touched about his LIES that have KILLED Americans and Iraqies. Does that make sense?? I am in no way defending Clinton I am just stating the obvious.

This is my view as a moderate American Who Believes the United States Should be the Worlds Policeman??

reply to post by neformore


"I mean, seriously, what ARE some people thinking?"

First of all the historical facts (Wik): The war began when Iraq invaded Iran on 22 September 1980 following a long history of border disputes and Iranian DEMANDS for the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime following the Iranian Revolution.

Iran instigated that war by bullying it's neighbor. Fanatical Religious dictators put in charge, then: I can't remember if the was before or after Iran Officials decided to hold 50 or more US Citizens HOSTAGE for four or five years !!

And this Country should be trusted with nuclear materials?? Not a chance.

As far as ATS poster's posts of the above kind, get over it.

Dallas

I have a question, what country has stated they were going to attack Iran?

Even recently Rice stated we will not attack Iran, so there is really no need for Iran to saber rattle as they have been doing for a good time now. With that said, Iran has been on their own designed mission from start to finish, and the world around them has really done nothing other than to give them options that they continue to turn down.

It is funny how now even France is saying that Iran is heading down a direction they need not go, and for what purpose? My personal thoughts to the purpose as to why a country would do the things that Iran is doing/saying are to ignite a new generation of extremist. Right now they are having a problem with their young people who want to be more moderate and westernized, and for them to be attacked would most likely reenergized a new wave of anti-Americans/west views.

Iran has been the offensive player in all this and anyone trying to portray them as an innocent country whose only goals are to their own personal security are either blind or has an agenda similar to Iran’s own. The death and injury toll of Americans and Iraqis at the hands of Iran through their efforts is staggering, and surly the long delay in Iraq standing up on their own feet as a democracy has been greatly affect by Iran’s meddling too.

To see Iraq falter into a sectarian war with a US departure is what Iran’s main purpose in all this is. Iran actively trains and supplies the insurgents and radical Shias to the fullest extent that they can, and the increasingly sophisticated weaponry flooding into Iraq and the extremely more powerful IEDs and suicide bombs are just the surface as to what they have their hands into. Bottom line is Iran would love to see Iraq under total Shi'ite rule that follow the Twelve Imam just as they do.

Iran also wants to see Israel as a country eliminated, and having MWD is their only avenue available for they cannot go the direction of a traditional war just as they cannot invade Iraq to accomplish their agendas there, but just as they are the supplier in Iraq they would become the supplier in a asymmetric war against Israel except WMDs would be their offer to country-less extreme Islam organizations.

One of America’s biggest problems is in this land of fast foods, fast deliveries and fast lifestyles, and countries like Iran operate on very long timelines. For them they see the US in Iraq for 5 years as nothing , but for us it is a life time. They do not want to beat us for they know they can out live us. They are willing to spend another 10 years working on their heavy water and America has a hard time comprehending that type of tenacity, and that is why if the world just sits back and lets them build their heavy water “reactors” then in ten years much of the middle east will be very different.



[edit on 30-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by Dallas
Iran instigated that war by bullying it's neighbor. Fanatical Religious dictators put in charge, then: I can't remember if the was before or after Iran Officials decided to hold 50 or more US Citizens HOSTAGE for four or five years !!

Ok. Now tell me about the History where the US helped to remove the democratically elected leader of Iran to install the pro-US Shah, and then when the people rose up and removed the shah, supported Saddam Hussein in prosecuting the war against Iran, selling him all the necessary precursors for chemical weapons and even produce reports acknowledging his use of chemical weapons, and how Rumsfeld went to visit him in the middle of all that.

And this Country should be trusted with nuclear materials?? Not a chance.

Then tell me one about the country that invaded a middle eastern state on the pretence of a lie, and explain to me why that one should be trusted with nuclear weapons?

No, Bottom line is we should not have ever been in Iraq to begin with.
9/11, if you believe the official story, should have been about taking out Bin Laden and his followers not bringing democracy, if you believe the official story after the first official WMD story tanked, to Iraq.
Now if the administration wants to start bringing up what happened in the '80s as a reason for war in Iran we could discuss that but I have not heard even a whisper about past grievances, it's all about this never ending war on terrorism.
Bottom line is we need to mind our own business and get back to fixing America, these military actions help NO ONE.
My heart breaks for citizens of countries who are under militant governments, for the human beings who are slaughtered every day by their leaders, I really wish we could help them all but let's be honest our troops are not over in Iraq to act as fairy Godmothers.

Originally posted by neformore
Then tell me one about the country that invaded a middle eastern state on the pretence of a lie, and explain to me why that one should be trusted with nuclear weapons?

Let me get your position on these.

1. Do you think it is a good idea for Iran to have nukes and other WMDs?

2. Do you think Iran is training and supplying anyone they can in Iraq to keeps the asymmetrical war in that country going?

3. Do you think Iran if had the chance would dissolve Israel as a country by whatever means?

4. Do you agree with the president of Iran that there are no gays in the country or issues with gays there even though it is still a death sentence for being gay, and do you think the women of Iran are the freest women in the world?

5. If Iran was just willing to have a good conventional military and played well with other countries would there still be a threat out there towards them?

6. If Iran is not after nukes then why did they refuse France's and most of the world's offer to build light water reactors for them?


[edit on 30-9-2007 by Xtrozero]

Interesting points and thought, SEEWHATUDO. There is no denying under the current administration, America got into a wee-bit of a mess that I feel may take many years to overcome in negative world opinion, if at all?

The Cowboy stampeded the effort to bypass diplomacy in dealing with Iraq's dead dictator. He may have used evry card the US collected over the years to twist the arms of the UN to ensure he got his way, hopefully not to avenge the attempt on his Dad's life in /91 over-there.

The mindset seems simple now, it's preemptive. It that's true there may be a race against time in removing him from office or making it to the next US Fed election, preempting Bush from making another serious blunder that could unleash the Cracken.

Iran's the last Country or of the top five to not trust with technology they-themselves are possibly fifty years away from science learning and developing on their own.

Dallas

reply to post by princeofpeace


The peaceful program that they operated in secret for many years was not a violation of the NPT. They did not begin enrichment until long after disclosure. If you research Brazils enrichment program you will see they did the same thing and even refused to allow inspectors to examine the centrifuges themselves because of supposed proprietary technology.

Before the Reactors go online, and before enrichment of any significant amount begins there must be inspections.

And they knew they were not hiding anything when they built the site. There was no way to protect it from satellite observation. Its just that the US went and pointed fingers before they made their own declaration.

Yes, we are being run by a bunch of people whose interests aren't the people of the country, but the corporations of the country.

I think the interview I watched of General 'Betray-us' said it well ... I will paraphrase ... People have a fear this is a never-ending conflict, I share those concerns, but it is time to take the rear-view mirror off the bus and look forward, plus we have a national interest in this country (Iraq).

The national interest? I would suppose that is oil, right? It isn't terrorism. In fact, I would argue, that if they were going to attack, they would have BECAUSE we are over there killing people. They aren't attacking us here, and they would have less reason to attack if we weren't killing innocent people along with the few bad apples. Revolutions must be fought by the people who live in and make up the country ... not by an outside occupier. The people must fight for themselves to respect what it means and to value what they gain in the end. Why do you think so many great quotes come from our forefathers that are lost on most of our population today. They fought themselves and understood how precious freedom and liberty was ... people today are spoiled and consider driving to work 'fighting' traffic.

What is our 'national interest' in Iran? Oil. The farce about the nuclear stuff was something for gullible people to eat up and drive themselves into a hateful downward spiral of genocide and profiling a nation of people and a religion. These people weren't hated 10 years ago when those 'red commie devils' were considered the bad guy.

The problem is, Iran is following the rules, so, we CAN'T attack Iran. We are being watched too closely by the rest of the world now, the blinders have been removed, even from our allies. We cannot attack another nation based on rumors and lies or because we don't like something.

If we treated all countries equal ... we would have invaded Israel a long time ago ... we would have made a louder voice against N. Korea.

I am tired of the politicians making our once proud country look like bullies, liars, and hypocrites. I am tired of a dumbed down nation believing in boogeymen ... taking war as lightly as a sporting event ... seeking out opponents to win against, when it isn't a little blood, sweat, and tears, but lives of people and standards of living that we wipe out with bombs while they eat popcorn watching it on their favored news program.

Violence begets violence. If you think you can walk in someone's backyard and start slapping around the family and pets, knocking down their treehouses and sheds ... then think that the people inside the house and their neighbors won't push you out ... you are nothing but a crazed criminal. It would be only natural to assume that someone would defend their own territory, especially if some bloke from another city was wreaking havoc in your neighborhood, violating laws while you are following them ... and supporting the psycho a couple blocks over by giving him money and technology when he says he doesn't like you ... when the person was given that house a few years ago, which was taken away from the people who lived there.


Though, I guess you would have to be able to see things from another's perspective. You would have to have some empathy. You would have to have no racism held within your heart. You would have to have the intelligence to read between the lines and see the truth for yourself. You would have to be honest with yourself and see reality. Be able to realize the country isn't infallible, and in fact, has made a lot of mistakes. This doesn't mean you are bashing or hating your country, but you have to admit a mistake so you can learn from it and be willing to change for the better.


To love something doesn't mean you turn a blind eye to its faults and mistakes ... you love it despite those faults and mistakes. That includes yourself. But just because you love yourself, doesn't mean you keep making past mistakes, but you always strive to improve yourself. If you never learn and never change ... you never grow. If as a child, you were a bully and pushed people around, and never learned it was wrong, as an adult you go to jail for that violence and have very few people that will socialize or relate to you.


My country is like an adolescent bully. Pushing its agenda on the rest of the kids and adults of the community. A true warrior only fights when it is absolutely necessary, not to get what it wants. Any bloodshed is horrible, for everyone is someone's family. This isn't a video game or a movie. There are eternal consequences ... each person killed never comes back. Thousands of our soldiers have died and those families are suffering. A lot of innocent people have died in this round of M.E. conflict ... in a country that should have never been invaded ... that was run by the very person WE put in control ... that we had executed.


When are you all going to wake up and realize this conflict is ridiculous, and let's work for WORLD PEACE, environmental health and stability (even if there is no global warming, it doesn't help to treat the planet you depend on with respect), and how about giving shelter and food to those without it in our own country ... 4 trillion dollars could have went a LONG way to help starving children. It is funny to be a so-called great nation, when a president asks for a bigger budget for the war, but, denies health care for children because the bill called for double the money he says he will allow which is a drop in the bucket compared to the cost of the war.

It is time to come home and start taking care of our country ... its people, its infrastructure (road systems, levies, bridges, other), its education system (take example from Japan), start real rehabilitation instead of imprisonment for non-violent crimes, non-privatised health and dental for AT LEAST people under 21 (Try paying 20,000+ for college and afford health and dental) ... and many other issues such as teaching parents to be parents again instead of relying on the school system and television to do the parenting for them.


To be a great nation again, it takes all of us from the bottom up ... but a big step to help would be to stop starting conflicts with other nations and just help with the U.N. when asked, with equal numbers as the rest of the countries. We are NOT the world police, we should quit acting like it.

reply to post by neformore



Great post, maybe some of the haters will read it and finaly understand Irans postion. Once again great post.

ProTo

Originally posted by neformore
Iran, a nation which has not invaded any other in living memory

I guess you mean besides the men, money and arms flowing into Iraq to kill allied forces? Oh, and of course the Iraq & Iran war.

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
I guess you mean besides the men, money and arms flowing into Iraq to kill allied forces? Oh, and of course the Iraq & Iran war.

Iraq started the war with Iran and there is no concrete evidence that Iran is aiding the current insurgency in Iraq.

[edit on 30-9-2007 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Iraq started the war with Iran

Well, this can be debated.
Prior to Iraq firing its first shot, Iran had sabotaged Iraqi interests and had shelled Iraqi border towns. This was all documented and presented by Iraq during that period. Also, some say that the war grew out of Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini's call for Iraqi Shiites to overthrow Saddam in order to install a sectarian Shiite government in Baghdad.

and there is no concrete evidence that Iran is aiding the current insurgency in Iraq.

Come on!
Of course Iran is aiding the insurgency in Iraq.

Originally posted by 4thDoctorWhoFan
Come on!
Of course Iran is aiding the insurgency in Iraq.

Sure. But there's still no concrete evidence, otherwise your beloved government would surely have paraded the information to continue building their case for another first strike. And if Iran does indeed aid the Iraqi insurgency, why not? Your beloved government does the same elsewhere in the world. Probably in Iran, too.

Like the thread title says, "its like watching a tennis match, and one side is surprised the ball is coming back."

For every action there is a reaction, with humans it may not necessarily be equal however.

As for your claims that "Iran's Ayatollah Khomeini's call for Iraqi Shiites to overthrow Saddam," how is that any different than your government's call to overthrow "unfriendly" regimes? And don't bring up democracy into the issue. Friendly by the definition of your government does not necessarily equate to democratic. It usually means friendly to corporate interests and you know that.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Sure. But there's still no concrete evidence, otherwise your beloved government would surely have paraded the information to continue building their case for another first strike.

Not necessarily. This type of info is usually always classified to protect the men and technology that aquired it.