Burma & Shan State Watch List

Hardcore monks?

But on topic, these things don't just happen, do they? Any possibility the monks are being paid off by a foreign influence?

Super work Khunmoon, I located this article about the US announcing sanctions on Burma, I hope it's ok to place it in here.

Bush to announce sanctions against Burma

President Bush today will announce additional sanctions against the military dictatorship in Burma to support the push for democracy in that Asian country, the White House said yesterday.

Mr. Bush, in a U.N. General Assembly speech, will announce financial sanctions against key members of the regime and those who provide them financial aid, said Stephen J. Hadley, the president's national security adviser.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
Hardcore monks?

But on topic, these things don't just happen, do they? Any possibility the monks are being paid off by a foreign influence?

Why dont they just happen? People sit around discussing things, those ideas slowly movearound the monks then the population and things DO happen.
The Burmese have been dumped upon and suffered torture, slavery and murder by the generals for 40 years now.

Karen slavery
www.cwis.org...

American involvement in Burmese slavery
www.encyclopedia.com...

reply to post by Beachcoma



I reeeally don't think so ..but - it can't be ruled it out.

The only one to have an interest here and now would be the Thais. Like in Cambodia they run the major part of all commercial businesses in Burma.

To pay anyone off in Burma I think the army makes a better target. Soldiers don't get paid in the army, they get fed, but their pay they exhaust from the local populace.

At this year's army parade in Naipyidaw, it is reported thousands of soldiers to have deserted, eying the chance brought down to civilizisation from their hill posts.

No, if blodshed is to be avoided, I think a coup within the junta is more likely.


[added to whom it is directed]

[edit on 25-9-2007 by khunmoon]

reply to post by JacKatMtn


I appriciate it Cat, thanks. Anything on Burma, background, energy policies, ethnic surpression, junta alliences, boycot and the ungoing protests will fit here. My intention is to collect as much info on a very little known country of which the public ignorance is substantial. Due to forty years of isolation.

The best sources for news are Irrawaddy Mag and The Nation, but there's a lot of hidden deals, surpression and stories you don't find in th news.

A curfew is now imposed from dusk-to-dawn in the main cities Rangoon and Mandalay
news.bbc.co.uk...

More serious is this note on the Irrawaddy website:



If this is true, Daw Aung San Suu Kyi, the very symbol of resistence in Burma, brought to prison, all hell will be lose.


About the Sino-Burmese relations, a mainly trade oriented relationship, a BBC report has this:

news.bbc.co.uk...



[edit on 25-9-2007 by khunmoon]

US Sanctions Burma

Bush addressing UN (video)

Reports of Riots, Teargas and Police Fighting Crowds with Batons

If you can access the Irrawaddy site (it's getting overloaded) you'll find live reports. For now it says:


Other site I just discovered with continious coverage www.mizzima.com...

Whilst peacefull protest is a wonderfull thing, in this case, facing the generals and soldiers I fear violence and guns is the only thing that is going to help the Monks win.
The army arent scared to shoot, theyve proven that in the past.
But when people start shooting back and the soldiers see their comrades fall in any numbers I suspect they will drop their guns and run.
A few bowls of rice a day and a uniform isnt worth getting shot for.

Shoting going on - Killing has possibly begun

Chorlton, I'm afraid you're right: The army arent scared to shoot.

Reports now indicate so.

From Irrawaddy.



I really don't hope and can't imagine the crowd of protesters lead by monks will start shooting back.

Contrary to 1988, where the world knew nothing before it was all over, WE ARE WATCHING ONLINE NOW.

I sincerly hope the soldiers will turn their guns against their officers instead.


BBC's report doesn't have any shot dead (yet), but is dramatic enough.


Report that Aung San Suu Kyi should have been prisoned last night have not been confirmed. Let's hope it's not correct.

I'm afraid this shotings with fatalities will turn out to be.

Terrific thread you've got going here, khunmoon. Keep it up! Here is a little bit of news about the latest.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2007/09/26/wburma526.xml

Burma's military police have attacked a crowd of around 700 anti-government protesters, including monks, with batons and tear gas near a pagoda in Rangoon.

Resorting to violence for the first time to break up protesters, troops dispersed a crowd trying to penetrate a barricade blocking the Shwedagon Pagoda and arrested dozens of people.

Beating their shields with batons, the police chased some of the monks and about 200 of their supporters. Other protesters tried to hold their positions near the eastern gate of the vast pagoda complex.

news.independent.co.uk...

Amid mounting concern that Burma's military rulers are preparing to launch a bloody crackdown on the thousands who have defied warnings to end their pro-democracy demonstrations, Gordon Brown has threatened to impose tighter sanctions on Burma. As troops and armed police flooded into the centre of Rangoon yesterday, the Prime Minister asked the European Union to extend its sanctions against the regime. He ordered his officials to draw up a list of measures that Britain could impose unilaterally if the EU fails to act.

The Burmese regime – apparently caught off guard by the scale of the demonstrations that have spread through the country over the past week – held a crisis meeting at its headquarters at its new capital, Naypidaw, located deep in the jungle. With discussions apparently led by the Defence Ministry, the regime emerged to issue new, blunt warnings to the demonstrators to end their protests or face the government's response.

news.independent.co.uk...

As President George Bush announced a new set of sanctions from the United States against Burma, it was reported that the imprisoned democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi had been moved from house arrest and placed in the notorious Insein jail.

And is some info on the Insein prison

news.bbc.co.uk...

Ko Aung, who was held at the British-built jail as a political prisoner for more than six years, said Insein was known as the "darkest hell-hole in Burma".

"When I was taken there, I had a hood over my head and tape on my eyes. I heard the guards shouting abuse at me and the sound of the prisoners in shackles.

"When I realised that I was at Insein, I cried underneath my hood, because it had such a horrendous reputation," he said.

The guards took Mr Aung to his cell - a concrete cubicle - about six feet by eight feet (2 metres by 2.5) where they removed his hood for the first time."I was immediately struck by the horrible stench. There was no toilet, just a slop bucket filled with human waste and crawling with maggots," he said.

"It was totally disgusting, the food was disgusting. Most of the prisoners have dysentery because of the conditions they are kept in. Many of them also have HIV."

Mr Aung was held in solitary confinement for three years because he complained about the conditions.

EDIT: Oh nuts! I didn't even notice the second page so I am just repeating a lot of news - sorry

[edit on 26/9/2007 by Muppetus Galacticus]

That's ok Galacticus, you have just confirmed the rumour Aung San Suu Kyi has been prisoned.

And in this minute BBC confirms one is dead.

Oh my gowd, this is gonna be nasty.

I only have time and connection speed to follow the local 'underground' sites ...and BBC. Any news from mainstream, please post. Thank you.

The Canadian media is reporting on it

www.cbc.ca...

The Burmese government is under pressure to avoid violence, with U.S. President George W. Bush tightening sanctions against Burma on Tuesday, while UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon urged for peace on Monday. The Dalai Lama and South African Archbishop Desmond Tutu have also spoken out.

It appears the world is watching this time so hopefully the massace.res of 1988 aren't repeated.

Also here

www.ctv.ca...

SEVEN MONKS WERE REPORTEDLY KILLED; TROOPS FIRE ON CROWDS

This headline is up on Irrawaddy NOW



BBC is confirming fatalities og gunshots


From Mizzima


Developing - but not in the right direction.

As a note: Today is the most important observance day of the month for Buddhists, the full moon. A bigger disgrace to the Sangha than this is hardly possible. They'll be sure to burn in hell, those bloody generals.

It is now 6:30 am in Rangoon and no news for now.

Yesterday's headline with 7 killed may have been a little over the top. They have taken it off now. What really happened is hard to say excactly. Phone lines are cut, internet connections jammed if not disabled.

It seems clear that deadly fatalities occured yesterday. The extent is still unsure however.

What seems sure is the man behind the crackdoewn, Brigadier General Kyaw San, Minister of Information. Note the irony in his title.

On the blog thread, Than Shwe is reported to be safe in Singapore.

UN is holding emergency meeting, but whatever comes out of that it'll take weeks to implement. ASEAN countries seem reluctant to act - they are afraid to harm a business like it is now, and with which, I think, they're quite content. If they wanted they could intervene within hours.

But they won't.

Worth immediate worries is the healthcare system of Burma. Rundown, out-of-date and underfunded to a degree it is chocked. Somewhere I read yesterday, volentary health corps ready to step in, has a staff of 37 medics.

Let's pray to the bloodshed won't come, but when the other players just sit with hands in lap I'm not sure what will happen. I only know appeals of mercy and humanitarian talk has no effect on the junta.

We can do our best spreading the word, but only the monks in the street can provoke the change.

Question will be, at what price?

Just remember in these parts of the world human life is worth absolutely nothing.

-------

Enough for the rant, Sydney Morning Herald confirms 3 killed





[edit on 26-9-2007 by khunmoon]

This is from the BBC intitles 'accounts from inside Bruma'

bbc.co.uk

There are a lot of people in the emergency ward in the hospital and people are dying there. One witness told me that there were three monks that were brought in by a taxi driver and one of the monks died at the table - the other two are in a critical condition. A lot of other people are severely injured. Thian, Rangoon

[...]

Now the military junta is reducing the internet connection bandwidth and we have to wait for a long time to see a page. Security forces block the route of demonstrations. Yesterday night, the junta announced to people in Rangoon and Mandalay not to leave their houses 9:00 PM to 5:00 AM. I think if the junta decides, they will cut off communication such as internet and telephone lines so that no information can be leaked to the outside world. David, Rangoon

Originally posted by Chorlton
Whilst peacefull protest is a wonderfull thing, in this case, facing the generals and soldiers I fear violence and guns is the only thing that is going to help the Monks win.
The army arent scared to shoot, theyve proven that in the past.
But when people start shooting back and the soldiers see their comrades fall in any numbers I suspect they will drop their guns and run.
A few bowls of rice a day and a uniform isnt worth getting shot for.

Somehow i doubt this will happen, the monks will not agree with using violence to get there way.

Does anyone even have weapons apart from the government anyway?


How You Can Help

For those in the UK you can help by signing the petition to the Prime Minister petitions.pm.gov.uk

You can also email the Portuguese Embassy (as they hold presidency of the EU) burmacampaign.org.uk

for people in other contries theres a list of sites here in which can give you idea's to help.


edit:

To add, im am very disappointed that this is getting so little attention. Ive only seen two threads on this site, and the newspapers the articles are dozens of pages in. whats even more disappointing is i can bet any amount of money that as soon as there is a few dozen confirmed deaths with an outburst of violence from the government this will make front page news.

you don't get on the front page without killing someone, its a terrible shame really.

[edit on 26-9-2007 by Edn]

Originally posted by Edn

Does anyone even have weapons apart from the government anyway?

Burma is litterally floating in weapons. A common payment for drugs are weapons. I'm not sure how many armed fractions there are in Burma, but it is a double diget (if not three] number.

Remember, like I tell in the intro to this thread, Burma is made up of 8 major ethnic groups and some 135 indiginous people. A significant number of them are in open war with the junta's central government. The major ones of the armed fractions form over time various alliencies with the junta or other armed groups.

Many of them wage war between eachother.

The Shan's alone has at least three armed fractions, with Shan State Army as the one being on the junta side for the present. They are because they fight their ethnic enemy in the United Wa Army on their teritory. Which again is a war of control of the drug routes.

Beside Wa and Shan having their own armies, the Karen, the Mon, the Akha and posibly several others have as well. Make it clear the junta only controls the cities and the communications between them. Strategic aliences are made to various etnic groups to act as proxies for the junta to control the borders in return for certain benefits in drugs and trafficking. As for the borders in general the only control the Burmese Army exercises are hunting down and anihilation of disident groups as far as their proxies can't take care - or the Thai Army for that matter, cause the strife goes often on on both side the 2000 mile border between the two countries.

A short story to illustrate. It was in February 2000 a hostage crise took place in the border area in Kanchanburi province in Thailand. In was settled in 48 hours and I doubt the outside world heard anything avbout it at all. But it is worth noticeing as it gives an idea of the intermingled web of interests that don't follow borders.

A group of armed teenagers, both gender, the youngest 12, of Christian Mons calling themselves "God's Army" was sent cross the border to occupy a hospital and take hostages in an effort to gain focus on their struggle. They did get the focus (at least in Thai media) and was promised an unconditional surrender and safe return. However they where all found dead with gunshots to the back of their heads in a room of the hospital after they had freed the hostages. Only the Thai police/troops could have done it. Everything was quickly silenced and no inquiries or investigations were ever made. There seldom are in such cases.

This band of teens somehow crossed interest that rendered their lives worthless. Nobody has ever since, as none had before, heard anything about "God's Army".

Yes, there're plenty of weapons inside Burma, but they are for defending interests, not minds. And beside, the ethnic struggle has nothing to do with the struggle for democracy.

Make clear the divergence of people in Burma goes from tribes on a stone age niveau over a medivial rural society (far the most) to aware city dwellers with a little elite of well informed intellectuals.

I thought you might find this link interesting, the photos have been taken on the site of the protests.
Flicker set of Protests
The photos of the people forming a guard for the monks is at once touching, inspiring and dreadful.
I fear for all these people.

Edited to add link to a blog:

Burmese-born blogger Ko Htike, based in London. He publishes pictures, video and information sent to him by a network of underground contacts within the country.
“I have about 10 people inside, in different locations. They send me their material from internet cafes, via free hosting pages or sometimes by e-mail,” he told the BBC News website. “All my people are among the Buddhists, they are walking along with the march and as soon as they get any images or news they pop into internet cafes and send it to me,” he said.
Ko Htike is one of a number of Burmese online activists, almost all based beyond the country’s borders.
Link

[edit on 26-9-2007 by ilandrah]

Thanks for your links, Ilandrah.

Yes, a picture tells more than a thousand words, they say.

It's not images this uprising is short of. Every news outlet have multimedia shows running.

Here are two of the better I found.





What it unfortunately is short of is factual informations on Burma, and specific the background for the present situation.

Sometimes I find the motto of this site to be mere for promotional use than a true statement.

Here is a piece on what is really about.

China's crucial role in Burma crisis

Unfortunately I still see this protest as coming to nothing as the protesters do not actually pose a threat to the generals or the army.

Peacefull protest can work sometimes as Ghandi proved, but he wasnt dealing with an administration as vicious as the Generals (other than in the black hole of Calcutta)

I suspect the only way the Generals will be toppled is with guns. And I dont think it would take too many guns either.

As I stated in another post, the Army doesnt get paid much at all, in some cases it is their food, lodging guns and uniforms.

When the protesters start shooting back and soldiers see their comrades falling, they will run, they wont fight. A Bowl or two of rice a day just isnt worth dying for.
Bring on the guns.