Who found America......Let give credit shalt we.

Originally posted by Lexion
Think Hitler said, "Maybe if we disregarded the
Jews".

No, he didn't disregard them, he put them into concentration camps and killed them.

Originally posted by Lexion
YOU have the AUDACITY to disregard...wait,
DISREGARD my relatives ?

When talking about who "discovered" America for Eurasia, yes, since the Natives were there already and not capable of reporting such a discovery, obviously.

Originally posted by Lexion
Why don't WE disregard YOUR relatives ?

You really should disregard mine if you're talking about, say, American history before Columbus's voyage. I'm Irish, Italian, Welsh, and Romanian, so before Columbus sailed to America, as far as I know, Europe had little impact on it.

Originally posted by Lexion
Paints a different picture, does it not ?

Look in a mirror, sometime.
See the true evil.

Oh my.

I once saw a report about how recent discoveries tend to indicate that the chinese discovered southamerica way before everyone else (vikings, spanyards, etc, except maybe from the polinesians)

who knows?, maybe if they got here they could have reach north america too, it´s closer anyway

Originally posted by Johnmike

Originally posted by Lexion
Think Hitler said, "Maybe if we disregarded the
Jews".

Originally posted by Johnmike

No, he didn't disregard them, he put them into concentration camps and killed them.

Much like what happened to Original Americans.
Give them diseased blankets.

Was Josef Mengele there, then ?

Originally posted by Lexion
YOU have the AUDACITY to disregard...wait,
DISREGARD my relatives ?

Originally posted by Johnmike

When talking about who "discovered" America for Eurasia, yes, since the Natives were there already and not capable of reporting such a discovery, obviously.

So, "OBVIOUSLY", any discovery needs someone to report to ?
How about the groups the scouts were looking out for ?

Originally posted by Lexion
Why don't WE disregard YOUR relatives ?

Originally posted by Johnmike

You really should disregard mine if you're talking about, say, American history before Columbus's voyage. I'm Irish, Italian, Welsh, and Romanian, so before Columbus sailed to America, as far as I know, Europe had little impact on it.

I could be mean and say we were better off.
But, I won't.

Originally posted by Lexion

Paints a different picture, does it not ?

Look in a mirror, sometime.
See the true evil.

The truth is, Native Americans discovered the
Northern American continent.

Fact is, they are and have been treated like
dung.

Want to get smarmy ?

I'm in the mood.

Regards,
Lex

Originally posted by Lexion
Much like what happened to Original Americans.
Give them diseased blankets.

Not even close. Diseased blankets could not, and did not account for all the deaths. It was simply contact with Europeans that did most of the damage. The Spaniards were horrible to the Natives, the other powers less so, but it was still not a nice thing at all.

Originally posted by Lexion
Was Josef Mengele there, then ?

Highlander?
I hope you get that.

Originally posted by Lexion
So, "OBVIOUSLY", any discovery needs someone to report to ?
How about the groups the scouts were looking out for ?

No, but the modern United States is something that is much, much more European than Native American. This nation's history began, in a sense, when the Europeans discovered America. Learning about the history of America before European influence is like learning world history in a sense, as opposed to United States history (not exactly). Still important to do, but it isn't as relevant as, say, the Civil War or the American Revolution.

Originally posted by Lexion
I could be mean and say we were better off.
But, I won't.

Who are "we"? If you're a United States citizen, I consider you a fellow American. I can't quite say a brother, but we are of the same people.

Originally posted by Lexion
The truth is, Native Americans discovered the
Northern American continent.

That they did. That's why they were the "natives."

Originally posted by Lexion
Fact is, they are and have been treated like
dung.

Pretty much.

Originally posted by Lexion
Want to get smarmy ?

That's a strange word.

Originally posted by Lexion
I'm in the mood.

[edit on 17-9-2007 by Johnmike]

The earliest authenticated European settlement in North America has been dated at more than 500 hundred years previous to Christopher Columbus and his merry adventure. Half a millennium. It was located in what is now known as Newfoundland. If you don't think they then hop-scotched their way completely down the Eastern seaboard, you're fooling yourself.

Following Senor Columbus, the Spanish established what is considered the first permanent European settlement in what would become one of the 50 states (Florida), 73 years after Chris mistakenly identified indigenous Caribbean natives as Asians.

So Chris comes along, "discovers" what everyone already knew was there, and no one particularly cared enough to try the move for another 73 years.

I suppose someone had to be tagged with the "Discoverer of America" moniker. Its much more romantic and provides a handy excuse to sell mattresses.

Like Lexion, don't get me started on the treatment of the indigenous natives.......we can only hang our heads in shame.....

reply to post by MrPenny

Like Lexion, don't get me started on the treatment of the indigenous natives.......we can only hang our heads in shame.....

Very right!! I stand here with them on this! I dont even want to get started on this, the blood that runs threw my very veins are the people who found this country..
Homeland security started back in 1492!


[edit on 17-9-2007 by zysin5]

reply to post by Steff


You might like this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I to believe Columbus was NOT the first person (in the west) to visit America.

WIKI LEIF ERICSON
Leif Ericson (Old Norse: Leifr Eiríksson)[1] (c. 970 – c. 1020) was a Norse[2] explorer known to be the first European to have landed in North America[3] (in Newfoundland, Canada).



ERIC THE RED father of Leif Ericson

I would hate to call it genocide since it makes it sound like a centralized, intentional effort to kill off all the Natives. The Spanish were pretty harsh, though.

Europeans were pretty harsh (the ancestors of Americans...)

Originally posted by Lexion
Originally posted by Steff

If we disregard the Native Indians

Wow...just, wow.

Think Hitler said, "Maybe if we disregarded the
Jews".

Maybe.

I'm of Seminole descent.

YOU have the AUDACITY to disregard...wait,
DISREGARD my relatives ?

Why don't WE disregard YOUR relatives ?

Paints a different picture, does it not ?

Look in a mirror, sometime.
See the true evil.

No regards,
Lex

I did not mean any harm.....That statements wa merely cementing the FACT that yes! The american indiands found it first....I was, as you probably know refering to (who else) found it first...I know...oxymoron.

No harm no foul!:-)

Originally posted by IchiNiSan
Europeans were pretty harsh (the ancestors of Americans...)

Depends on who you refer to, Europe is a continent. Not all Europeans did the same things.

lexion wow man you go a lot of pent up frustration, but i guess you have good reason.. id be pissed too. i with you though they did discover it first hince the name native americans..

i dont think i have native blood in me maybe some where but im not sure. i do have a close friend who is though ive known him the better part of my life the sad thing is he didnt learn that he was native american until his 21st b-day.

I've always found this a very interesting topic.

Let me see; there are Irish-Americans, and African-Americans, and Italian-Americans, and Heinze57 Americans. But there are really only Americans. Call us what you will, but in your heart you know that we are the true people of this land.

I am Native American, but that only means that my ancestors were here before the founding of this nation. The nation that as a collective whipped, badgered, and tricked us/them into subjegation.

But the population of Native Peoples is on an upswing, so maybe what goes around, comes around.

I think the Mohawk Nation should invade Poland. Or the UK.. Or maybe even Norway. (And no, I'm Lakota, not Mohawk.) Then we could be counted as discovering Europe.

Seems fair to me.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by NGC2736]

Originally posted by NGC2736
Let me see; there are Irish-Americans, and African-Americans, and Italian-Americans, and Heinze57 Americans. But there are really only Americans. Call us what you will, but in your heart you know that we are the true people of this land.

You disgusting racist. We were both born here, under this nation, and I have just as much of a right to be here as you.

Originally posted by NGC2736
I am Native American, but that only means that my ancestors were here before the founding of this nation. The nation that as a collective whipped, badgered, and tricked us/them into subjegation.

You mean subjugation.

If you pay attention, you'll realize that most of the horrors were due to disease, not some concentrated effort to kill natives. Though that's not to underplay those that did happen and were intention.

Originally posted by NGC2736
But the population of Native Peoples is on an upswing, so maybe what goes around, comes around.

Yay?

Originally posted by NGC2736
I think the Mohawk Nation should invade Poland. Or the UK.. Or maybe even Norway. (And no, I'm Lakota, not Mohawk.) Then we could be counted as discovering Europe.

Unlike you, I do not advocate invading and oppressing sovereign countries. Did you get these ideas from Hitler?

There has been some research that indicates that, while he did indeed live in Italy, Fair hair Chris Columbus may have been the son of a Norwegian shipping merchant. There is also some evidence that he used maps from previous expeditions by others. There is evidence of Chinese reaching North America as well. There has been a lot of discussion that Native Americans in the US, prior to the arrival of Columbus, had experienced a significant loss in population, possibly due to disease. This is what happened in South America prior to Spanish arrival there.

It is well documented that European settlers did indeed significantly contribute to the demise of Native populations in the Americas.

I simply query, is it really all that important who gets credit for being first? Homo sapiens has wandered across the globe to every continent, yet we are all still of the same species. Simply because a man does not have the same skin color, or eye color, does not mean that he is not my fellow man. Someday, we will all go to the stars, if we can keep from bickering amongst ourselves long enough to cooperate.

I am all for living closer to the Earth in harmony, rather than the exploitative manner brought by the Europeans. I am all for returning land to native tribes where treaties were broken. I am against casinos though.

reply to post by Johnmike


JohnMike, I haven't said anything bad about any race or group, so your words about how I am a disgusting racist have no validity whatsoever, and only prove that you are looking at any comment from the tunnel of your own position.

There are parades where people proudly proclaim that they are Irish-American or Polish-American, so how could my saying that be racist? And the word "America" refers to the land mass, and therefore those who were/are it's original inhabitants. Ergo, in any geographical sense I am an American, and those who later came are adopted citizens.

Does it bother your sense of Manifest Destiny that I, a lowly native, would have the timerity to claim myself and my brethren as true Americans? You can have the rights and citizenship of this entity proclaimed as The United States Of America, as do I, but unless you are Native American, then somewhere in the recent past your ancestors came and aided in stealing this landmass from those who settled it first.

Now I am not trying to stir you to anger. The past is gone, the dead of all our people are buried here.We have joined as brothers in the building of a nation, and we are co-owners of any future that we have. Yet, changing the past to reflect less guilt is not the road to truth. If it were, then we should employ the myth that the black race was happy down on the plantation.

Do not confuse truth, in all it's stark reality, for anything else. It is what it is. And the idea of Manifest Destiny was one of those National truths.It was the spoken and unspoken intent of of a good number of those who embraced the westward movement.

And yes, I mispelled a word. It doesn't make me an illiterate savage. It means that spell check is on the fritz, and I type as I think.

And I must disagree that there was no concerted effort to kill Native Peoples. I will not cite chapter and verse from history, but you and I both know that the idea to settle and farm/develope land meant that those who owned it then had to be gotten rid of, by whatever means was at hand. It would be equating your ancestors to morons if you imply that it didn't occur to them that killing the owners of that land was the simplist solution.

Yes, the population of Natives People in the Americas is on an upswing, and that could mean that our vote has a greater impact now than in the past. Why, did you think I was hinting at scalping?

As to my saying we need to invade a few other nations, I can only say that you must have left your sense of humor and irony on the boat. Surely you are not so dense that you took that as more than jest, and way of showing how some of us felt about the invasion of Europians.

Lighten up. This thread was about who found America. And the minute it became about those explorers that arrived on a vacant landscape some 12,000 to 14,000 years ago, you have grown hostile. ( I will admit it does my perverse sense of irony good to call someone other than another Native a hostile. )

You are as much a citizen of the US as I, and the same for all the other people that have came to these shores. But don't confuse that with being original people here. You can't change history.

Peace.

Originally posted by NGC2736
JohnMike, I haven't said anything bad about any race or group, so your words about how I am a disgusting racist have no validity whatsoever, and only prove that you are looking at any comment from the tunnel of your own position.

There are parades where people proudly proclaim that they are Irish-American or Polish-American, so how could my saying that be racist? And the word "America" refers to the land mass, and therefore those who were/are it's original inhabitants. Ergo, in any geographical sense I am an American, and those who later came are adopted citizens.

No, you said that your race is the only true American race. Basically stating that no one else has the right to be here.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Does it bother your sense of Manifest Destiny that I, a lowly native, would have the timerity to claim myself and my brethren as true Americans? You can have the rights and citizenship of this entity proclaimed as The United States Of America, as do I, but unless you are Native American, then somewhere in the recent past your ancestors came and aided in stealing this landmass from those who settled it first.

I think that you are a true American (I hope), that I am a true American, that all people who are born here are true Americans. My ancestors did not have any part in stealing any land. I don't know all of them, but for the most part, they immigrated to this country to achieve a degree of economic prosperity. In the times of, you know, "Irish need not apply." But those times are long past, and we have the nation that we do now. And it's something that goes beyond simple boundaries of race. What our ancestors did or didn't do (and mine, as far as I know, had nothing to do with stealing American land or owning slaves or anything) is a thing of the past. We're citizens of this country now, in this present.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Now I am not trying to stir you to anger. The past is gone, the dead of all our people are buried here.We have joined as brothers in the building of a nation, and we are co-owners of any future that we have. Yet, changing the past to reflect less guilt is not the road to truth. If it were, then we should employ the myth that the black race was happy down on the plantation.

Black people weren't the only people who were enslaved. The Irish weren't quite enslaved, but were heavily oppressed by the British. I don't hold a grudge, though, or feel anything about anyone's race today. Doing so would make me a racist.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Do not confuse truth, in all it's stark reality, for anything else. It is what it is. And the idea of Manifest Destiny was one of those National truths.It was the spoken and unspoken intent of of a good number of those who embraced the westward movement.

Yup. The past sucked, in a lot of ways.

Originally posted by NGC2736
And I must disagree that there was no concerted effort to kill Native Peoples. I will not cite chapter and verse from history, but you and I both know that the idea to settle and farm/develope land meant that those who owned it then had to be gotten rid of, by whatever means was at hand. It would be equating your ancestors to morons if you imply that it didn't occur to them that killing the owners of that land was the simplist solution.

Much of the natives didn't really have a solid concept of land ownership, and were therefore easily manipulated into giving up their land. It's sad, really. There was never any centralized attempt at genocide, though. The closest you can get to that is the actions of the Spanish.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Yes, the population of Natives People in the Americas is on an upswing, and that could mean that our vote has a greater impact now than in the past. Why, did you think I was hinting at scalping?

I hope you don't practice scalping.

Originally posted by NGC2736
As to my saying we need to invade a few other nations, I can only say that you must have left your sense of humor and irony on the boat. Surely you are not so dense that you took that as more than jest, and way of showing how some of us felt about the invasion of Europians.

Sadly, those "some of us" weren't alive when that happened. You can blame people in the past, but those in the present have no responsibility for what was done then.

Originally posted by NGC2736
Lighten up. This thread was about who found America. And the minute it became about those explorers that arrived on a vacant landscape some 12,000 to 14,000 years ago, you have grown hostile. ( I will admit it does my perverse sense of irony good to call someone other than another Native a hostile.

)

I don't like racism, in any shape or form. That has nothing to do with who wronged who in the past, and holding grudges against other races for such is racism.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by Johnmike]

The Chinese built the Transcontinental Railroad but you will not see them in this photo of the final spike going into the ground and the completion.



History is always determined by those who write it. Even if it's all false.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by cloakndagger]

reply to post by Johnmike


I will only answer to one last part of your post, as I am not about to derail this thread. I DO NOT hold a grudge aginst anyone. I know full well that you have not personally contributed to the idea of Manifest Destiny, and your personal linage may be just as blameless.

I harbor no ill will towards any. The past is the past. And I never meant that you were not as much of an American as anyone else, for America is what it is in the "now". But I spoke only in the geographical sense.

Neither you nor I can change what was. Yet, if it is not to happen again, we must not forget, or sugar coat the facts. I will always speak up for my people, and I will never let the truth of what was become only another fairy tale like Washington and the hatchet.

We both must embrace the past and it's truths, and let ourselves be guided to a better future for us all.

Again, Peace.



[edit on 18-9-2007 by NGC2736]