Has the time come, to replace or overthrow the US Govt?

Simple question,
With all that you have seen, heard, witnessed or endured... and all that appears to be forming on the horizon...

maybe its time to start pondering the idea of saving your country and your economy before 'another' crime can be committed?

After the 2000 election, there was enough resonable doubt to assume that , yeah ok.. maybe bush did actually win.

After 911, again there was enough reasonable doubt to assume, yeah.. fair enough... no one saw this coming...

But then came Iraq... and you started thinking.... hmmm, sept11 seems awfully convenient...... especially when there was prior intel..

Now you have Iran.... are you going to sit here staring at the evidence and the propoganda with a troubled conscience and feeling of guilt and ALLOW them to continue the same ''arrogant folly''

Your economic woes, which obviously wernt beaten by interest rate maniuplation and direct fed injections, are the result of the policies and foreign direction that your leaders are enforcing on your national pride.

Does anyone out there, believe they cant wait for the next chapter before they act?

I certainly am one...
So why arent you?

We overthrow the government every 4 years. We were not paying attention in 2004 so we have to wait until November of 2008 to do it right.

You honestly believe they are going to just give up what they broke so many laws to control?

Iraqs the cashcow they committed crimes to create,
The governments the opportunity they stole through lies,
Irans the barrier between the US and middle east domination......

They got sooo close...

and they arent going to give it up, those new laws wernt passed giving them rule in the event of a major incident for future 'democratic leaders'

Honestly, I'm surprised a rebellion hasn't happend yet.

I think that they(the government) are suprised to, I think that they might just be waiting on it. We are living in times similar to what our fore-fathers lived in, a government that has over-stepped its bounds.

That's why we have the right to bear arms baby!
When they start trying to take away our guns, that's when the rebellion will happen, for sure.

And i'm ready!

Violent rebellion is always the last resort, so I would say no.

I don't buy the whole Bush/Cheney/Whoever plot thing, nor do I think 9/11 was a
government plot,so I don't see any reason to incite a rebellion that actually could
lead to elections being postponed.

[edit on 8/29/2007 by iori_komei]

Being on the other side of the pond, what happens in the US impacts the whole world.

My first question is what do you define as the US Government? The president? His cabinet? The two houses? State and local government? etc.

The president is elected by the people and yes I know you can question if the last election was fair and above board, but the courts decided the result would stand and there will be an opportunity to change presidents next year.

And what do you replace the Government with? More of the same but from another party?

And is there the ground swell of opinion and those willing to act to overthrow the government. Which would see such an action as treason? And just how that would whip people up?

The military would have to be neutral at worst and pro change at best, or it would just be a blood bath.

The United States Government is so massive, so cumbersome, and so embedded in every aspect of American life I do not honestly think any clean non violent transition of governments or rebellion can take place. It is natural for those in control to try to keep the reigns. The government is an entity upon itself in many ways. It has needs, it has a central nervous system (the executive branch), a soul (the congress and houses) and its own conscious (legislative branch). It also has ts own tools and weapons to protect itself and it's interests. The military and other government agencies dealing with intelligence, economics, and other organizations are its tools for self sustenance and self procreation. The government grows and shrinks depending on certain events. The government can be injured, but can also heal itself, often times coming back stronger then before. That which does not kill you makes you stronger. The government is embedded down into every region of life. Police, health care, courts, education, jobs, trade, literally everything has some sort of government presence in modern life. So I ask you, how would you completely replace such a gigantic beast, when its tendrils are in touch and can manipulate every aspect of your life? Any protest, violent or not, has police and government agents present to prevent drastic incidents. Anyone plotting for change can be labeled as a terrorist, extremist, or a social delinquent, and often times can face some kind of punishment. Any organization that wishes change is often forced ot work through the government to obtain it, and yes at times change does happen, but to what degree? Often times only enough to appease the masses. civil rights, womens rights, job equality, medium wage, work conditions, everything we take for granted could be better, but we are contented so things are not made better. Yes people cry out for better life's, but often time the same people who wish for change are afraid to work for it, often fearing repercussions. Honestly some of the punishments are understandably scary, and the fact is often the people are willing to believe the media and propaganda endorsed by the government to make such people look like outcasts and extremists. So the question is how would such a change take place when the government literally has such a gigantic force at its will to hold you down? Yes we do effect our government, but the fact is they can endorse their will whether you like it or not. Its been shown many times. So please, if you have any ideas or propositions to appease this problem, please send them our way to be deliberated. But in the end the only thing that can change the government is a massive and almost total involvement by all Americans to try and make the difference.

We've got some rought times ahead. There's no denying that. We do have options, and its important that we don't lose sight of that fact. We don't all agree on what comes next, but we do agree (generally) that violence should be the very last resort. We're at a point in our history when its just too tempting for our politicians to exploit terrorism. The drive to centralize power is something that can affect us all.

The truth is that we talking about a very big problem that doesn't have just one solution. To simplify it, I say that we won't actually get to fix this thing until it breaks. You can see more on my thinking HERE. Without any hesitation, I say that it is not yet time to do what you're suggesting. If we are blessed, it'll never come to that.

Very true, and I hope it never has to come to violence of any sort. But change is needed, and often times waiting for the machine to break is the worst of decisions. It needs to be fixed before it breaks, and it needs to be done so in a way so that the same mistakes and problems do not arise again.

I don't want to see it come to that, either. That's one reason why I have gone so far out of my way to write on the subject. By depicting what a conflict of this unfortunate kind could be like, I hope to warn people away from it. At the same time, I don't think we really fix the Federal-level system until it really does break.

I've seen reform here in my own State, and I've seen it recently. I know its possible. the average American may not be lable to effect the Federal, but we can effect State-level politics more so than we realize. That's because politics becomes "cheaper" at the local level.

Any country that is at risk of civil war or revolt stands a good chance of becoming a failed State. If things had gone wrong in our own civil war, "America" as we know it would be thing of the past. We were fortunate in that things torned out differently. We're still here.

I notice that "Red Dawn" is playing on one of my cable channels today. It's worth noting that any revolt or civil war that did take place on American soil wouldn't be so "cool." We owe it to ourselves and our future generations to avoid that scenario. If we can't, we've got to be certain that it really is our last resort.

War is never a "Cool" thing, and should not be seen as so. I do understand your point of changing state level political environments, but can changes in the state governments change the ways of the federal government? Often the situation is that although the state government leads into the federal, federal tendencies and ambitions remain the same. The same taxes we pay go to the same military and political movements, and although change was relevant at stateside the same face remains for the federal. War is bad, and should always be a last resort. I do not feel it has to come to this. The way our forefathers setup the government was so that change could be easily managed to the people. Most people do not remember the articles of confederation that ruled our country for so briefly. The federal government that is still run today is the 2nd edition (toned down phrasing). The major problem is in my opinion is that in elections, from state to presidential, is that the people are often swayed by lies and propaganda. Don't get me wrong, good politicians do exist, but in a state of constant lies and rumbles how can the people tell? I think another issue is the electoral college. It was designed to balance votes back when it took months to get poll tallies. In todays modern tech environment this should not be implemented. The choice of presidency is the choice of the people, not a group of self elected officials. There are so many issues I wish I could address but I will stick to the topic. Change is needed, but war is definitely not a needed factor. But it seems you and I are dominating this conversation, perhaps a one on one conversation is in order?

PS: Red Dawn was an awesome movie

I think its a good idea to have conversations like this out in the open. You'd be surprised at how many lurk without posting. Because many of our State-level officials go on to Federal service, its important for us to "stock" our State governments with good and civic-minded people. Slowly, over time, they will make their presence felt on Capitol Hill. It took us two hundred years get sink this far, its not unreasonable to presume that it could take that long to rise to what we KNOW we are capable of.

200 years is not soon enough, simple as that. Change is needed and our politicians need to recognize the flaw of their ways. The people of America are no less to blame, having allowed their minds to be caressed into its current state of mind. Strong, coherent thought processes are needed, and often times people are not interested enough to commit to such political processes, or any harder process for that matter other then simply living. A way is needed to gain the attention of people, without war or conspiracy being the reason behind it.

"We have a responsibility to talk civics, and to practice what we preach. Beyond that, we'll just have to wait for that "event" which results in a state of affairs so irritating that the majority feels inclined to action. Sad to say, but that seems to be what revolts and civil wars are for.

Some day, its going to matter that we had these conversations.

Justin,
If you were a peasant farmer, who KNEW the future, sitting in a beer hall in the early 20's...
And you saw one young Adolf sitting by himself... talking up the 'advantages' of a workers party...

would you

a. Follow him outside and kill him
b. Allow him to leave without any fuss

not having a dig at ya bro, just curious as to your response?
you seem very full hearted and honest in your approach to all things..

but would you be able to commit the ultimate sin, if it meant ensuring a few million souls were able to live in peace?

I've had this discussion with others. Presuming that the nature of time would permit it, I myself would be unable to turn a blind eye to what I believed to be a dark future just waiting to happen. I understand your underlying point. Some things are worth dying for.

Imagine that you yourself are just one of many fat and out of shape rebels in a dark future. Would you stay behind and be a distraction so that the rest of your winded comrades could get away? Maybe. Under the right/wrong circumstances, you might.

We are not all of us the same kind of hero. Some of us are absolute cowards, with no hero potential at all. For some, there is nothing that is worth dying for. I agree that life is precious, but its also ours to spend as we see fit.

I personally think that we'll face that moment when things break down sooner rather than later. I don't think you'll have to wait two hundred years. You may have to wait twenty, and even then...I hope for all I'm worth that I am wrong. 2012-2016 may very well be the most critical years in the modern history of our nation.

Damn you people with your logical answers

I spose I Was going to ask, '' well you'd willing to do it for hitler, why not bush ''

but I already believe I know your answer.

Have we already begun something that cant be stopped?

Did we have the chance/choice in 2000, to avoid the great war of the 12-16th yrs of this century and missed it?

I view Iraq as a snowball atop a mountain.
The invasion, pushed it over the edge... and time made it grow.
how do you stop a 20m snowball when its gaining in velocity?

This is definitely and interesting topic to talk about, and the whole Kill Hitler or not is also a interesting topic. I know you didn't ask me, but personally it is my belief that no one, if given the chance, should change the past. The past is what makes us who we are today, and who we are today effects the future. Plenty of horrible things have happened, but in the end I like to think it could have been worse, and maybe some of the better things that have happened might not have. Time and the possible changes is a hard topic, a good headache if talked of properly. But back to politics. What would you do to help make change Agit8dChop? Also, Justin, I thank you for putting so much into this conversation, it is not one I will easily forget.

Overthrow the Government?

Not necessary, a civil war would create more caos that we already have. I think violance is the last option. What we can do is turn off your reality shows and participate in democracy. Be aware of who you elect, what are the policies that we as the people accept to be passed. We are too busy in our personal lifes to get involved. If the people aren't involved, then officals and the elites take advantage. If this doesnt work, then malcom x the hell out of your govn't.

illglimmgnt.

The only way to create anarchy is to destroy the criminal court system nationwide. It's the back bone of the nation. Think about it.