Satan is not Lucifer.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

I refuse to call the King of Babylon Lucifer, Its Helel, Helel, Helel.

Why would the Procurator of a Divine Court be the Mortal King of a Mortal Nation. Read the whole chapter in Context. I repeat in context it. It even calls Helel a Man.

I know it's a man. And when you understand who this man, a Babylonian king is, you should understand why he is connected to Lucifer.


Lucifer is Satan the adversary appearing as an angel of light.

[edit on 18-8-2007 by Sun Matrix]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

I refuse to call the King of Babylon Lucifer, Its Helel, Helel, Helel.

Why would the Procurator of a Divine Court be the Mortal King of a Mortal Nation. Read the whole chapter in Context. I repeat in context it. It even calls Helel a Man.

I know it's a man. And when you understand who this man, a Babylonian king is, you should understand why he is connected to Lucifer.


Lucifer is Satan the adversary appearing as an angel of light.

[edit on 18-8-2007 by Sun Matrix]

There isnt any connection to Satan. Helel is not an angel of light. Helel is not an Epithet of Satan. Satan doesnt care about appearing as an angel of light to humans. Look at Job and Zechariah, he hates humans.

Helel or the last King of Babylon is no different than most other Kings or Rulers who think they are above and beyond G-d. He is like Pharoah or Caesar. That is the implications of the prophecy. If it was King Nabonidus or a future King of Babylon I dont know. I know Helel is a man, a mortal. That is enough to show hes not even a Angel much less a figure like Satan in the Adatel.

I just dont see the connection. From a biblical point of view there is none. Jerome and the other Church fathers had no idea what they were writing about. Dante and John Milton only worsened it.

I believe in free will, I believe people can believe what they want to believe as long as its not in Ignorance. If you want to think Satan is Lucifer go ahead but know this, The Bible does not support it period. It is extrabiblical and ignoring what is written in Job, Zechariah, and Isaiah.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
If you want to think Satan is Lucifer go ahead but know this, The Bible does not support it period. It is extrabiblical and ignoring what is written in Job, Zechariah, and Isaiah.

You are making a wrong conclusion. Satan wants to be God.......and yet he is cast into hell. Read the rest of the chapter.

I can tell you are a person that searches for answers....that wants the truth.

Isaiah 14:4 says.... That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.............

So who is this mortal king of Babylon that is being talked about? To understand this chapter, you need to understand who this man is....who is the king of Babylon?

I have been looking for comparable beings in other pantheons that are like Satan to give people a better way to understand who or what Satan is.

Satan is not a light bearer, morning star, Venus, Phosphoros, or Lucifer.
Satan is not some Gnostic Promethean Liberator either.

One the best examples from another Mythology is the Greek Protogenos named Nemesis. Even her name has similar meaning to Satan.
Nemesis is the Executrix of Justice within the Greek Pantheon. She is associated with terrible beings known as Erinyes or Furies who stalk criminals.

Another is the goddess Poena, where the word Subpoena comes from. She is the Goddess of Pain in Roman myth.

In Jewish Mysticism. the Cabala, Gevurah or Din is one of the Ten Sephiroth. It is G-d's Judgement and Wrath. From the Sepher Ha Bahir's text one can see how Satan would be an instrument of Gevurah.



[edit on 18/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

reply to post by MikeboydUS



I have shown you what Paul said about Satan appearing as an angel of light.

The whole key to understanding Isaiah 14 is identifying who the mortal king of Babylon being talked about is.

There are clues to identify him within the chapter.

Identify this mortal king and things should fall into place.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
If you want to think Satan is Lucifer go ahead but know this, The Bible does not support it period. It is extrabiblical and ignoring what is written in Job, Zechariah, and Isaiah.

You are making a wrong conclusion. Satan wants to be God.......and yet he is cast into hell. Read the rest of the chapter.

I can tell you are a person that searches for answers....that wants the truth.

Isaiah 14:4 says.... That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.............

So who is this mortal king of Babylon that is being talked about? To understand this chapter, you need to understand who this man is....who is the king of Babylon?

Why would Satan want to be G-d? Man is the one who is proud and elevates himself above G-d. Helel in the prophecy is killed his soul descends into Sheol and his body is left to rot in the street.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix
reply to post by MikeboydUS

 

I have shown you what Paul said about Satan appearing as an angel of light.

The whole key to understanding Isaiah 14 is identifying who the mortal king of Babylon being talked about is.

There are clues to identify him within the chapter.

Identify this mortal king and things should fall into place.

I'm looking at the chapter in context right now.

Some of the things that stand out are how numerous dead greet his arrival. They speak to him noting he's like them, dead. Then it mentions worms and maggots infesting his corpse.

I'm looking at Rashi's commentary on the Tanakh as well. He mentions Nebuchadnezzar. He also mentions the Sarim of Babylon.

It mentions his great pride. Then this: "Is this the man who caused the earth to quake, who wrought havoc among the kingdoms? Who made the land like a desert, and his cities he demolished; for his prisoners he did not open the house."

And this: "But you were cast from your grave like a discarded sapling, [in] the garb of the slain, of those pierced by the sword, who descend to the stones of the pit, like a trampled corpse. You shall not join them in burial, for you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people; the seed of evil-doers shall not be named forever."

"Prepare a slaughter for his sons because of the iniquity of their forefathers, lest they rise and inherit the land, and fill the surface of the earth with enemies."

Notice his children are about to be killed as well lest they rise up.

" "And I will rise against them," says the Lord of Hosts, "and I will cut off from Babylon a name and a remnant, a son and a grandson," says the Lord. "And I will make it for a heritage of hedgehogs and pools of water, and I shall sweep it away with a broom of destruction," says the Lord of Hosts."

G-d basically says Babylon is finished. In the next few verses He pledges to wipe out the Assyrians and Philistines.

In modern times Babylon is ruins. Excavations began in 1899. In 1985 Saddam Hussein begin to restore some of the ruins.

www.iht.com... This article shows that in April 2006 the UN and Iraqi government makes plans to build shopping malls, hotels, and even a theme park in Babylon.

Another interesting tidbit is that 1st Marines moved into the ruins during the invasion in 2003 and kept looters away. A military base has since been built up there for US forces amid Babylon. I was in Iraq during the invasion and almost had a chance to go with a group of chaplains to Babylon.

I could make some bizarre speculation from this. There is absolutley nothing that hints that Satan is the Sarim of Babylon or Helel in this, but there are some interesting implications about Helel deceiveing the whole world and wreaking havoc.

I'll leave you with this thought, The UN and Weapons of Mass Destruction.





[edit on 18/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Satan is derived from the Hebrew word meaning "adversary."

Ha-Satan is derived from the Hebrew word meaning "accuser."

Several angels had these positions in gods court but have never be seen as evil!!

Lucifer does appear to come from mixed origins,but all meanings are similar.
here's an interesting quote from the bible that often gets overlooked....
Rev 22:16 ""I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,the bright and morning star"" (aster orthrinos). Jesus claming to be the morning star! interesting twist!

Beelzebub is actually the name of a Philistine god.but there is also a similar word in Hebrew.

Devil is derived from the Greek word meaning "accuser."

Demon is derived from Greek,the original spelling is Daemon or Daimon.these creatures appear in many different religions and myths.for example,in Britain and Scandinavia a Daemon is a spirit that can be good or bad!

The problem with this subject is that its been twisted and changed by christians for centuries! they corrupted so many things and turned it into a truth.for example,the Greek god Pan.a god of music,shepards and flocks.his apperance was that of a half man half faun.he had a pointed beard and small horns.does this sound fimiliar?? if you look at statues of Pan he looks like the Devil! yet this was not an evil god.his image got hijacked by the christian faith!


A great book to read is,A History Of The Devil by Gerald Massadie.




And,a little off topic,but i hope you don't mind.its just something i've always wondered about and have never got a satisfactory answer to.

At school i was told that Satan/the Devil was the ruler of Hell.a place of torment of suffering.i was also told that Satan and all his demons enjoyed corrupting mankind and making us commit acts of evil.which then,of course,upon our death,we end up in hell to be tormented for all eternity for our crimes against god! does anyone see the fatal flaw???

If Satan is ruler of Hell,and he corrupts humans to get back at god.why then,does he punish us when we get to hell?? It makes no sence! Surely he would celebrate our wickedness! Surley Hell would be a Heaven to those who are wicked! To punish us for our sins is to do god's job is it not??

Originally posted by jakyll
Satan is derived from the Hebrew word meaning "adversary."

Ha-Satan is derived from the Hebrew word meaning "accuser."

Several angels had these positions in gods court but have never be seen as evil!!

Lucifer does appear to come from mixed origins,but all meanings are similar.
here's an interesting quote from the bible that often gets overlooked....
Rev 22:16 ""I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David,the bright and morning star"" (aster orthrinos). Jesus claming to be the morning star! interesting twist!

Beelzebub is actually the name of a Philistine god.but there is also a similar word in Hebrew.

Devil is derived from the Greek word meaning "accuser."

Demon is derived from Greek,the original spelling is Daemon or Daimon.these creatures appear in many different religions and myths.for example,in Britain and Scandinavia a Daemon is a spirit that can be good or bad!

The problem with this subject is that its been twisted and changed by christians for centuries! they corrupted so many things and turned it into a truth.for example,the Greek god Pan.a god of music,shepards and flocks.his apperance was that of a half man half faun.he had a pointed beard and small horns.does this sound fimiliar?? if you look at statues of Pan he looks like the Devil! yet this was not an evil god.his image got hijacked by the christian faith!


A great book to read is,A History Of The Devil by Gerald Massadie.




And,a little off topic,but i hope you don't mind.its just something i've always wondered about and have never got a satisfactory answer to.

At school i was told that Satan/the Devil was the ruler of Hell.a place of torment of suffering.i was also told that Satan and all his demons enjoyed corrupting mankind and making us commit acts of evil.which then,of course,upon our death,we end up in hell to be tormented for all eternity for our crimes against god! does anyone see the fatal flaw???

If Satan is ruler of Hell,and he corrupts humans to get back at god.why then,does he punish us when we get to hell?? It makes no sence! Surely he would celebrate our wickedness! Surley Hell would be a Heaven to those who are wicked! To punish us for our sins is to do god's job is it not??

Youve done a bit of good research. I have read that book its interesting.

The thing with Hell its like the teachings about Satan. Satan does not rule, live in and probably doesn even visit what we might call Hell. He works in Heaven and Earth.

Hell is another oddity. It may not even exist, at least yet. It appears to be something that comes into being after the Final Judgement. Considering what the actual Gehenna was in ancient Israel it sounds like Hell will be a giant burn pit for garbage.

When I was in Afghanistan at Bagram Air Force Base there was this Massive Pit, at least forty feet deep and easily a few acres in size. Here all of the garbage on base from tires to aluminium cans was brought by garbage trucks and dumped. Workers would take fuel and pour over it and light it on fire. It was always burning, smoking and smoldering. It reminded me of Gehenna from Israel.

Hell is usually linked with physical pain as well.which means,after death we must still have a solid form! to me hell would not be physical,but mental.the brain has a great capacity when it comes to shutting off pain,but imagine being bored for eternity!! it makes me laugh to say it but i know how it would effect me.watching grass grow til its as tall as the eiffel tower would be a nightmare.as would being forced to watch the tellytubbies for centuries

the Devil is a creation by christians.its an answer to why there is such violence and evil in the world.they don't want to accept it comes from god,even though in the bible god says,"""I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.""" (Isaiah 45:7)
its also an effect weapon of fear when it comes to controlling ppl.especially for those who lived in the time when the bible appeared only in latin.monks and priests could blame all on the devil.scare ppl by telling them they will go to hell and all that nonsence!!

Originally posted by jakyll
Hell is usually linked with physical pain as well.which means,after death we must still have a solid form! to me hell would not be physical,but mental.the brain has a great capacity when it comes to shutting off pain,but imagine being bored for eternity!! it makes me laugh to say it but i know how it would effect me.watching grass grow til its as tall as the eiffel tower would be a nightmare.as would being forced to watch the tellytubbies for centuries

the Devil is a creation by christians.its an answer to why there is such violence and evil in the world.they don't want to accept it comes from god,even though in the bible god says,"""I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.""" (Isaiah 45:7)
its also an effect weapon of fear when it comes to controlling ppl.especially for those who lived in the time when the bible appeared only in latin.monks and priests could blame all on the devil.scare ppl by telling them they will go to hell and all that nonsence!!

I think the burning is metaphor. Considering the metaphor is Gehenna. Its not really about fire, its the fact that Gehenna was a Garbage Dump. In some ways this reminds me of the Qlippoth from the Cabala, how they are refered to as waste or broken remains. It sounds like to me consciences get thrown away into this waste, left to decay.

Rather than face responsiblity people have chose to blame Satan. The truth is that its Humanity's fault for the state of the world we live in. Its not demon possession, its not Satan. It is Humankind's responsibility.

People who believe there is some kind of cosmic struggle with G-d dont understand how Powerful G-d is. When the Israelites saw G-d project onto Mt Sinai it was Horrifying like something straight from the Cthulhu Mythos of HP Lovecraft. There was Darkness, Black Clouds, Fire, Thunder, and Lighting. When He Spoke the Israelites were so Horrified by His Voice they thought they were going to die and begged Moses to go speak to G-d after just hearing Ten of the 613 Commandments. Moses may be the Bravest human to have ever lived. Even then Moses did not see G-d's face because the sight of It would have killed him. People can look at Angels all day long. Even the Angel of the Lord who acts as the Mouth of G-d doesnt have that kind of power.

The only struggle is Humanity's. Our Trial in the Adatel where G-d is Judge, Satan is Procurator, the Angel of the Lord might be our Advocate, and the Morning Stars and Sons of G-d Assemble.



[edit on 18/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

"""Rather than face responsiblity people have chose to blame Satan. The truth is that its Humanity's fault for the state of the world we live in. Its not demon possession, its not Satan. It is Humankind's responsibility."""

A statement i am in total agreement with.Humans have a great knack at shifting the blame,which means they don't have to tackle the real problems.for example,the number of shootings in american schools.instead of facing up to the problem of violence and the easy access children have to guns,ppl blame music,films and video games instead!

I actually believe that humans are a creature of duality.why? because everything in nature has an opposite...we have to have bad in us to know what good is.we know something is beautiful because we have something ugly to compare it to.without chaos there would be no order,etc etc.but being a creature of duality doesn't mean its ok for all the bad things to keep happening.i see ppl who are evil are like that because they have not mastered themselves,they have no balance.just as those who see themselves as pure have no balance.strange thing to say,i know.but ppl like that do not realise that sometimes you have to do a little evil in order to do a greater good! or in simpler terms,better a lie that heals then a truth that wounds.

I myself do not believe in god,or any of the gods in the world today.but i believe jesus,like moses and abraham and muhammed (and many others),were all great prophets.and as you said about moses,were also brave men.did they converse with god? i don't know.i see them as men of vision.men who carried great philosophys and laws on how we should live our lives.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by jakyll
the Devil is a creation by christians.its an answer to why there is such violence and evil in the world.they don't want to accept it comes from god,even though in the bible god says,"""I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.""" (Isaiah 45:7)
its also an effect weapon of fear when it comes to controlling ppl.especially for those who lived in the time when the bible appeared only in latin.monks and priests could blame all on the devil.scare ppl by telling them they will go to hell and all that nonsence!!

Rather than face responsiblity people have chose to blame Satan. The truth is that its Humanity's fault for the state of the world we live in. Its not demon possession, its not Satan. It is Humankind's responsibility.

Out of all the things mentioned in this thread, and many are important to setting one's mind free of many undesirable things, I would say these two statements are the most important to take to soul, mind, and heart. Many people seem to hear everything else except what you two have said here. It's perplexing because it seems to be the most obvious and easily recognizable solution to all of Mankind's problems. I suppose it is just not the easiest thing to face up to.

Originally posted by jakyll
"""Rather than face responsiblity people have chose to blame Satan. The truth is that its Humanity's fault for the state of the world we live in. Its not demon possession, its not Satan. It is Humankind's responsibility."""

A statement i am in total agreement with.Humans have a great knack at shifting the blame,which means they don't have to tackle the real problems.for example,the number of shootings in american schools.instead of facing up to the problem of violence and the easy access children have to guns,ppl blame music,films and video games instead!

I actually believe that humans are a creature of duality.why? because everything in nature has an opposite...we have to have bad in us to know what good is.we know something is beautiful because we have something ugly to compare it to.without chaos there would be no order,etc etc.but being a creature of duality doesn't mean its ok for all the bad things to keep happening.i see ppl who are evil are like that because they have not mastered themselves,they have no balance.just as those who see themselves as pure have no balance.strange thing to say,i know.but ppl like that do not realise that sometimes you have to do a little evil in order to do a greater good! or in simpler terms,better a lie that heals then a truth that wounds.

I myself do not believe in god,or any of the gods in the world today.but i believe jesus,like moses and abraham and muhammed (and many others),were all great prophets.and as you said about moses,were also brave men.did they converse with god? i don't know.i see them as men of vision.men who carried great philosophys and laws on how we should live our lives.

I agree that humans are capable of great evil and even great good. Hopefully one day we will realize that.

If it were not for men like Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Mohammed we would still be living in Barbarism. I respect that you recognize that. It shows greater insight than many people.

"""If it were not for men like Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Mohammed we would still be living in Barbarism. I respect that you recognize that. It shows greater insight than many people."""

Thanks many ppl get so angry at me saying that jesus was just a prophet that they totaly miss what i'm talking about.just because i believe that there may not be a divine connection does not ditract from the fact that these men gave powerful and wonderful meassges to mankind!

I've been talking on other threads about books that do not appear in the bible because they have been lost for generations;such as the book of enoch,the gnostic texts(nag hammadi scrolls.) and the dead sea scrolls.these speak louder to me than most works of the bible because we know the bible has been tampered with countless times.these works have more chance of containing original messages as they have been lost for so long!

should have said that most of the gnostic texts were not lost,they were deliberatly removed by the catholic church for being blasphemous!

Originally posted by jakyll
I myself do not believe in god,or any of the gods in the world today.but i believe jesus,like moses and abraham and muhammed (and many others),were all great prophets.and as you said about moses,were also brave men.did they converse with god? i don't know.i see them as men of vision.men who carried great philosophys and laws on how we should live our lives.

I have said many times that it's not even important to debate whether such individuals have ever existed or not. Unless folks are debating amongst equals communication becomes difficult. What's important are the stories of how they lived their lives and the messages that come from that. Taking the time to learn the stories is much more important than taking the time to get all of the details correct. There are many great stories and they need not be in conflict with one another. Does it matter that a story is true and factual or not when it deepens one's understanding of life and what it means to take responsibility for one's own life? In my view it doesn't. But if one has to present their master's thesis to the orthodoxy of whatever, or get points toward promotion within the clergy, or be seen as a beacon of strength, honesty and integrity in society, then I guess it does matter, but again, that's just highlighting one's own self-importance, and it has very little to do with the message of the stories.

Originally posted by jakyll
"""If it were not for men like Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Mohammed we would still be living in Barbarism. I respect that you recognize that. It shows greater insight than many people."""

Thanks

many ppl get so angry at me saying that jesus was just a prophet that they totaly miss what i'm talking about.just because i believe that there may not be a divine connection does not ditract from the fact that these men gave powerful and wonderful meassges to mankind!

I've been talking on other threads about books that do not appear in the bible because they have been lost for generations;such as the book of enoch,the gnostic texts(nag hammadi scrolls.) and the dead sea scrolls.these speak louder to me than most works of the bible because we know the bible has been tampered with countless times.these works have more chance of containing original messages as they have been lost for so long!

The Book of Enoch may be one of the most important of the Lost Books. Shortly after the fall of Jerusalem a Rabbinical Council dropped the Book of Enoch. Between that and the Council of Nicea it was thought the book was lost to history. Then in the 1800s Europeans discovered that the Ethiopian Orthodox Church still had copies. In the 1940s the Dead Sea Scrolls were rediscovered which also contained the Book of Enoch.

Consider this, the Book was Canon during the time of Jesus and the Apostles. Its even quoted from in Jude. It throws light on Genesis, Azazel, and the Nephilim.

Hey MikeBoydUS,

Good topic here, and interesting insights from all sides. Quick question/point of clarification. I remember having come across mention (not sure if it was the Torah or Talmud, probably both) the name which is usually simply reffered to by G-d fearing yids as the Samach-Mem, which is an abbreviation for the name Sam-iel. If I am correct this is the Jewish conception of the "devil" in a manner of speaking, yes? Could you ellaborate a bit on this point, it's been a while since I've looked into this aspect (Judaism seems much less concerned with a Ha Satan type of character than christianity, so therefore mention is usually about conquering our own Yitzer HaRa, or evil inclination as opposed to blaming everything bad on some cosmic boogey man). Thanks for any info you can contribute.

Peace,
Hex23

Originally posted by hexagram23
Hey MikeBoydUS,

Good topic here, and interesting insights from all sides. Quick question/point of clarification. I remember having come across mention (not sure if it was the Torah or Talmud, probably both) the name which is usually simply reffered to by G-d fearing yids as the Samach-Mem, which is an abbreviation for the name Sam-iel. If I am correct this is the Jewish conception of the "devil" in a manner of speaking, yes? Could you ellaborate a bit on this point, it's been a while since I've looked into this aspect (Judaism seems much less concerned with a Ha Satan type of character than christianity, so therefore mention is usually about conquering our own Yitzer HaRa, or evil inclination as opposed to blaming everything bad on some cosmic boogey man). Thanks for any info you can contribute.

Peace,
Hex23

Samael is mentioned in the Talmud. There is alot of disrepancies over his true nature or what he is. Some rabbinical lore says he is Ha Satan. Other say he is the Angel of Death. Some think he's both.

The Talmud states he is the Guardian of Esau. He appears at least to be the Sarim of Edom. Some later connect this with Troy and Rome. A rabbi I spoke to in the military said Samael is indeed the Sarim or Prince of Rome and that extended into a range of other things like Catholic Civilization and Western Civilization. In other words he has massive influence over Christiandom. That would make him the most powerful Sarim next to Michael, Prince of Judah. He may be the main factor that separated the Notsrim, followers of Jesus from the Jews.

He generally acts in an antagonistic manner towards Michael and Judah.