Satan is not Lucifer.

Originally posted by jakyll

The problem with this subject is that its been twisted and changed by christians for centuries! they corrupted so many things and turned it into a truth.for example,the Greek god Pan.a god of music,shepards and flocks.his apperance was that of a half man half faun.he had a pointed beard and small horns.does this sound fimiliar?? if you look at statues of Pan he looks like the Devil! yet this was not an evil god.his image got hijacked by the christian faith!

A great book to read is,A History Of The Devil by Gerald Massadie.

Actually, the problem with this subject is that it has been twisted by countless book writters that couldn't tie their own shoes.

Pan was considered the adversary long before the birth of the Messiah.

Lucifer is the uncorrupted name of the fallen angel that was given the lower name of Satan. Maybe because its attributes changed and so did the name of the Angel. In the book of Revelations 12:9 it says
The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan who leads the whole world astray. So he has different names to his character but his pure form was known as Lucifer. Remember names have meanings in the Bible and Jesus in theory is not really the right name its Yeshua so we go by the meanings.
Yes the Greeks do prove one thing that their giants and God worship is the fallen angel idolatry worship that the Bible warns of, Angels seeking worship and this is where the ancients get their influence from. But it’s up to you which side to believe in all this.
www.jesusisajew.org...

Originally posted by The time lord
Lucifer is the uncorrupted name of the fallen angel that was given the lower name of Satan. Maybe because its attributes changed and so did the name of the Angel. In the book of Revelations 12:9 it says
The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan who leads the whole world astray. So he has different names to his character but his pure form was known as Lucifer. Remember names have meanings in the Bible and Jesus in theory is not really the right name its Yeshua so we go by the meanings.
Yes the Greeks do prove one thing that their giants and God worship is the fallen angel idolatry worship that the Bible warns of, Angels seeking worship and this is where the ancients get their influence from. But it’s up to you which side to believe in all this.
www.jesusisajew.org...

Uncorrupted name? What? Lucifer is Latin. The Tanakh was written in Hebrew. Lucifer is the name of a Roman deity. Lucifer is only the pure form of Lucifer the Roman deity of the Morning Star nothing else.

Satan is not a lower name. It is a title like Procurator or Prosecutor.

At least the word Jesus is a Greek version of Yshua. Calling Satan the name Lucifer would be like calling Yshua the name Ares. No wait let me use a Roman name Mars. Thats about how much Satan and the Roman deity Lucifer have in common.

The Seven headed Dragon in Revelations is not Lucifer. Revelations may or may not be applicable. The Council of Nicea almost dropped it like they did the Book of Enoch and the Apocalypse of Peter.

Two things: Satan in Job and Zechariah is not some Seven Headed dragon. Another being has that trait, the Leviathan and its Canaanite counterpart Lotan.

Leviathan and Satan are two completely different types of entities.

[edit on 18/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by jakyll

The problem with this subject is that its been twisted and changed by christians for centuries! they corrupted so many things and turned it into a truth.for example,the Greek god Pan.a god of music,shepards and flocks.his apperance was that of a half man half faun.he had a pointed beard and small horns.does this sound fimiliar?? if you look at statues of Pan he looks like the Devil! yet this was not an evil god.his image got hijacked by the christian faith!

A great book to read is,A History Of The Devil by Gerald Massadie.

Actually, the problem with this subject is that it has been twisted by countless book writters that couldn't tie their own shoes.

Pan was considered the adversary long before the birth of the Messiah.

Adversary by who the Anti Pan people? Who would that be the Bacchaeans since the followers of Pan drank all the wine up?

The closest to Pan might be Azazel. Azazel is not Satan. Lucifer is not Azazel. Azazel is a completley different being that is associated with the Seirim, which are like Satyrs. Theyre often called Goat demons.

Learn your languages.
"Satan" is "Adversary"---"Al-Satan" ( or "el satan" could even be attributed to jesus in the temple against the money changers)
"Lucifer" is "bringer of light" or "bearer of light".
2 different entities, clearly, unless you believe the entity that brings light and knowlege is diametrically opposed to "god".

Originally posted by gotrox
Learn your languages.
"Satan" is "Adversary"---"Al-Satan" ( or "el satan" could even be attributed to jesus in the temple against the money changers)
"Lucifer" is "bringer of light" or "bearer of light".
2 different entities, clearly, unless you believe the entity that brings light and knowlege is diametrically opposed to "god".

Learn my languages? What? Al Satan? Mixing your hebrew and Arabic? Its Al Shaitan or Ha Satan. El Satan? Spanish? Its El Diablo.

Lucifer doesnt bring any knowledge. He is not Prometheus. Helel is not Prometheus. Lucifer is simply the aspect of Venus in the morning according to Roman myth. The Evening Star is a different deity. Venus is a completely different deity.

Beings angering G-d for bringing so called knowledge? Look at Prometheus in Greek myth then look at Azazel in the Book of Enoch. Lots of parallels. Azazel and Prometheus are not Lucifer.



[edit on 18/8/07 by MikeboydUS]

"Lucifer" (Venus, Light Bringer,morning star) Was the one who believed mankind was entitled to know the truth in Genesis.
"Satan" is anyone who opposes the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Koran.
Amazing that all follow Abrahim, and yet kill each other at every opportunity with impunity due to faith.
The bugger (Abraham) should have "kept it in his pants", as it were, as all 3 use his indiscretion as a platform for genocide.

[edit on 8/18/2007 by gotrox]

Guess not gone too deep with this subject but even so here is a quote.
QUOTE:

Lucifer is the name for an angel of immense light and beauty who chose to betray God and was thusly cast out of heaven. Lucifer became known as the devil, and one of the popes (I forget which one) started calling him "Shaitan". Shaitan is an Arabic word meaning "adversary", and was chosen becuase the pope at that time considered Arabic to be an unclean language. So calling the devil "Shaitan" was like a double insult, basically. Over time, the word "Shaitan" morphed into "Satan".
END QUOTE:

Maybe the translation has confused things a bit in the English language and the different names are the different descriptions at different events in history.

well EXCUSE ME if my conversion is not up to your standards.
Point being, "Satan" is adversary (no matter how you translate it) and "Lucifer" is Light bearer (Ditto). "El Diablo" is an amalgamation of the two, as is "Devil".
Idiot.

Originally posted by gotrox
"Lucifer" (Venus, Light Bringer,morning star) Was the one who believed mankind was entitled to know the truth in Genesis.
"Satan" is anyone who opposes the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Koran.
Amazing that all follow Abrahim, and yet kill each other at every opportunity with impunity due to faith.
The bugger (Abrahan) should have "kept it in his pants", as it were, as all 3 use his indiscretion as a platform for genocide.

That Roman deity believed no such thing. He is nothing like Prometheus. No deity that I can think of off the top of my head associated with Venus is a wisdom deity. Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc. Lots of Sun deities related to knowledge and wisdom, but not the planet Venus.

Mankind entitled to know the Truth? The Truth about what? I assume your talking about the Nahash in the Garden of Eden. The Nahash is a creature of the Garden. It is not a normal snake. It is something like the Naga of Hindu myth.

Genocide? Lets see, hmm, Between the Peoples Republic of China, The United Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Third Reich they killed together something around 100 million people. 1000 years ago that would of been One Third of all the people living on the Earth. Think about that for abit. The greatest murdering nations in history and not a single one was a Theocracy.

Originally posted by gotrox
well EXCUSE ME if my conversion is not up to your standards.
Point being, "Satan" is adversary (no matter how you translate it) and "Lucifer" is Light bearer (Ditto). "El Diablo" is an amalgamation of the two, as is "Devil".
Idiot.

I'll take constructive criticism when accurate. Name calling is not constructive or accurate. If I made you somewhat upset in my remarks I apologize. I quickly and bluntly react to statements like "Learn your Language".

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The Council of Nicea almost dropped it like they did the Book of Enoch and the Apocalypse of Peter.

Someone has been feeding you a little bull. The Council of Nicea chose no books of the Bible.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS


That Roman deity believed no such thing. He is nothing like Prometheus. No deity that I can think of off the top of my head associated with Venus is a wisdom deity. Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc. Lots of Sun deities related to knowledge and wisdom, but not the planet Venus.

Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aprodite, Venus etc are all the same.

Throw is Isis, Madonna, Estora etc. etc. etc.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by gotrox
"Lucifer" (Venus, Light Bringer,morning star) Was the one who believed mankind was entitled to know the truth in Genesis.
"Satan" is anyone who opposes the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Koran.
Amazing that all follow Abrahim, and yet kill each other at every opportunity with impunity due to faith.
The bugger (Abrahan) should have "kept it in his pants", as it were, as all 3 use his indiscretion as a platform for genocide.

That Roman deity believed no such thing. He is nothing like Prometheus. No deity that I can think of off the top of my head associated with Venus is a wisdom deity. Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc. Lots of Sun deities related to knowledge and wisdom, but not the planet Venus.

Mankind entitled to know the Truth? The Truth about what? I assume your talking about the Nahash in the Garden of Eden. The Nahash is a creature of the Garden. It is not a normal snake. It is something like the Naga of Hindu myth.

Genocide? Lets see, hmm, Between the Peoples Republic of China, The United Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Third Reich they killed together something around 100 million people. 1000 years ago that would of been One Third of all the people living on the Earth. Think about that for abit. The greatest murdering nations in history and not a single one was a Theocracy.

Ummm---the "Hitlerites" belived in a racially pure theocracy. The PRC believe currently in a pure "socialist theocracy", murdering any who follow any other faith. The USSR fell to Muslims.
100 million people a thousand years ago????
Get a grip on today.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The Council of Nicea almost dropped it like they did the Book of Enoch and the Apocalypse of Peter.

Someone has been feeding you a little bull. The Council of Nicea chose no books of the Bible.

Your right it wasnt the Council of Nicea. A bishop from Alexandria and two different Synods helped create the Roman Canon.

Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by MikeboydUS
The Council of Nicea almost dropped it like they did the Book of Enoch and the Apocalypse of Peter.

Someone has been feeding you a little bull. The Council of Nicea chose no books of the Bible.

Chose all books of the bible--- That was the point, weather you think it was a proper endeavor or not. Please look at history and not propaganda.

Originally posted by gotrox

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by gotrox
"Lucifer" (Venus, Light Bringer,morning star) Was the one who believed mankind was entitled to know the truth in Genesis.
"Satan" is anyone who opposes the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Koran.
Amazing that all follow Abrahim, and yet kill each other at every opportunity with impunity due to faith.
The bugger (Abrahan) should have "kept it in his pants", as it were, as all 3 use his indiscretion as a platform for genocide.

That Roman deity believed no such thing. He is nothing like Prometheus. No deity that I can think of off the top of my head associated with Venus is a wisdom deity. Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc. Lots of Sun deities related to knowledge and wisdom, but not the planet Venus.

Mankind entitled to know the Truth? The Truth about what? I assume your talking about the Nahash in the Garden of Eden. The Nahash is a creature of the Garden. It is not a normal snake. It is something like the Naga of Hindu myth.

Genocide? Lets see, hmm, Between the Peoples Republic of China, The United Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Third Reich they killed together something around 100 million people. 1000 years ago that would of been One Third of all the people living on the Earth. Think about that for abit. The greatest murdering nations in history and not a single one was a Theocracy.

Ummm---the "Hitlerites" belived in a racially pure theocracy. The PRC believe currently in a pure "socialist theocracy", murdering any who follow any other faith. The USSR fell to Muslims.
100 million people a thousand years ago????
Get a grip on today.

So National Socialism and Communism are now religions? The USSR fell to Muslims? The USSR was in the middle of a coup by hardline Communists and Boris Yeltsin declared Russian Independence in the middle of it.

The 100 million number is to make you realize that 1000 years ago during a real Holy War as in the Crusades there were around 300 million people on earth at the time. The Crusades, The Protestants/Reformation, Inquisition, and Spanish Conquest of the Americas did not kill near as many as the big Three Totalitarian States of the 20th Century killed. Within a few years Germany had killed more people than the Roman Church had killed in 1000 years.

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by gotrox

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by gotrox
"Lucifer" (Venus, Light Bringer,morning star) Was the one who believed mankind was entitled to know the truth in Genesis.
"Satan" is anyone who opposes the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Koran.
Amazing that all follow Abrahim, and yet kill each other at every opportunity with impunity due to faith.
The bugger (Abrahan) should have "kept it in his pants", as it were, as all 3 use his indiscretion as a platform for genocide.

That Roman deity believed no such thing. He is nothing like Prometheus. No deity that I can think of off the top of my head associated with Venus is a wisdom deity. Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc. Lots of Sun deities related to knowledge and wisdom, but not the planet Venus.

Mankind entitled to know the Truth? The Truth about what? I assume your talking about the Nahash in the Garden of Eden. The Nahash is a creature of the Garden. It is not a normal snake. It is something like the Naga of Hindu myth.

Genocide? Lets see, hmm, Between the Peoples Republic of China, The United Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Third Reich they killed together something around 100 million people. 1000 years ago that would of been One Third of all the people living on the Earth. Think about that for abit. The greatest murdering nations in history and not a single one was a Theocracy.

Ummm---the "Hitlerites" belived in a racially pure theocracy. The PRC believe currently in a pure "socialist theocracy", murdering any who follow any other faith. The USSR fell to Muslims.
100 million people a thousand years ago????
Get a grip on today.

So National Socialism and Communism are now religions? The USSR fell to Muslims? The USSR was in the middle of a coup by hardline Communists and Boris Yeltsin declared Russian Independence in the middle of it.

The 100 million number is to make you realize that 1000 years ago during a real Holy War as in the Crusades there were around 300 million people on earth at the time. The Crusades, The Protestants/Reformation, Inquisition, and Spanish Conquest of the Americas did not kill near as many as the big Three Totalitarian States of the 20th Century killed. Within a few years Germany had killed more people than the Roman Church had killed in 1000 years.

Yup====The current socialist/theocrists kill more in percentage. Or maybe you are a UN troll and choose to ignore Darfur, child murdering in China because the kids are female, or the murder of "undiserables" in India,Pakistan, Afghanistan, Philipines and SA.
But that doesn't count,I guess.

Originally posted by gotrox

Yup====The current socialist/theocrists kill more in percentage. Or maybe you are a UN troll and choose to ignore Darfur, child murdering in China because the kids are female, or the murder of "undiserables" in India,Pakistan, Afghanistan, Philipines and SA.
But that doesn't count,I guess.

Me a UN troll, . I do not ignore Darfur, its an extreme tragedy. Iraq is another tragedy. I actually griped a number of times on ATS how Christians are being killed in Iraq and Sudan but no one seems to care.

Originally posted by gotrox

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by gotrox

Originally posted by MikeboydUS

Originally posted by gotrox
"Lucifer" (Venus, Light Bringer,morning star) Was the one who believed mankind was entitled to know the truth in Genesis.
"Satan" is anyone who opposes the teachings of the Torah, Bible, or Koran.
Amazing that all follow Abrahim, and yet kill each other at every opportunity with impunity due to faith.
The bugger (Abrahan) should have "kept it in his pants", as it were, as all 3 use his indiscretion as a platform for genocide.

That Roman deity believed no such thing. He is nothing like Prometheus. No deity that I can think of off the top of my head associated with Venus is a wisdom deity. Inanna, Ishtar, Ashtar, Aphrodite, Venus, etc. Lots of Sun deities related to knowledge and wisdom, but not the planet Venus.

Mankind entitled to know the Truth? The Truth about what? I assume your talking about the Nahash in the Garden of Eden. The Nahash is a creature of the Garden. It is not a normal snake. It is something like the Naga of Hindu myth.

Genocide? Lets see, hmm, Between the Peoples Republic of China, The United Soviet Socialist Republic, and the Third Reich they killed together something around 100 million people. 1000 years ago that would of been One Third of all the people living on the Earth. Think about that for abit. The greatest murdering nations in history and not a single one was a Theocracy.

Ummm---the "Hitlerites" belived in a racially pure theocracy. The PRC believe currently in a pure "socialist theocracy", murdering any who follow any other faith. The USSR fell to Muslims.
100 million people a thousand years ago????
Get a grip on today.

So National Socialism and Communism are now religions? The USSR fell to Muslims? The USSR was in the middle of a coup by hardline Communists and Boris Yeltsin declared Russian Independence in the middle of it.

The 100 million number is to make you realize that 1000 years ago during a real Holy War as in the Crusades there were around 300 million people on earth at the time. The Crusades, The Protestants/Reformation, Inquisition, and Spanish Conquest of the Americas did not kill near as many as the big Three Totalitarian States of the 20th Century killed. Within a few years Germany had killed more people than the Roman Church had killed in 1000 years.

Yup====The current socialist/theocrists kill more in percentage. Or maybe you are a UN troll and choose to ignore Darfur, child murdering in China because the kids are female, or the murder of "undiserables" in India,Pakistan, Afghanistan, Philipines and SA.
But that doesn't count,I guess.

So forgive me Please..
The original post was about Lucifer and Satan not being the same, and digressed from there.
I will agree that the ideas of "Lucifer" and "Satan" are not really opposed to some sort of "Abrahim" constructed "God".
That they are differing ideals is the major point, IMHO.