Military widens door for dropouts

I am gonna throw my two cents worth in here.

In 1950 a sixteen year old kid dropped out of high school and went to work in a local textile mill, his father had been injured working for this same textile mill and needed his son to take his place in order to put food on the table. Over the next couple of years the yound kid became a bit of a ruffian and began drinking which in the end led to a fight outside of a convience store one night in October of 1952. The young kid was arrested and charged with battery. At his court hearing the kid was given a choice he could join the military and have all charges dropped or he could take 6 months of jail time with a battery conviction on his record.

So in October of 1952 this kid joins the Army at the rank of E-1 and after basic and infantry training ships off to Korea serving one term in that war and ending up promoted to E-4 in the first 3 year term of his enlistment. The kid reenlisted and decided to make a career out of the Army he begins by finishing up his highschool education and taking college course while serving. The kid goes on to serve 3 tours in Vietnam earning several purple hearts and not a small number of combat awards.In the Army this kid has earns a masters degree and in 1980 retires as a Divisional Command Sergeant Major E-9. This kid has 4 kids of his own who all graduate from high school and have some college. After he retires from the military he works for the local police department in his hometown and then for the sheriffs department in his home county. He leaves the sheriffs departmment To go to work for the postal service a job which he plans on retiring from in 2008 at the age of 75. Now he has worked until 75 because he likes the Post Office job, he likes the folks on his mail route.

So instead of high school dropout with a criminal record and working labor intensive jobs for the rest of his life this kid becomes a soldier makes it a career and earns a masters degree when all is said and done. From what could have been a disaster of a life to a good citizen and productive member of society all because a judge gave the kid a choice that october day in 1952.

This is a true story the 16 year old kid is my father many years ago, I hope when I am 75 I am half the man he became.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by andyzero1234
I don't know if dumbing down our standards is a good or bad thing, but thinking about this guy as a ranking military decision maker in charge of others in a life or death situation scares the hell out of me.

Speaking as someone who has actually BEEN in the military, I have to say that it's not a good idea. I spent 3 years in Afghanistan, and I can tell you for a fact that I worried enough as it was with the people I had "protecting my back." I certainly wouldn't want someone who couldn't spell encyclopedia, by my side.

That's just my take on the whole issue. If it offends, I'm sorry..

Not that it offended me or anything but when you’re in war why would you worry if the guy next to you can spell encyclopedia?
As long as he or she is intelligent enough to shot accurately and know who to shoot along with many other military survival skills I would think spelling would not be a concern. Unless you are talking about items they would need to survive in war if that is the case encyclopedia is still not important enough to spell.

The same goes for general geography. As long as they know they are in a certain area and can read a map then who cares if they know where to find Russia on a map? Why would a ground personnel need to know that when they are stationed in Iraq for instance?

I personally would be more worried with how well this person knows to protect him or her self and me. I could care less if they can spell or even have good grammar. So long as I can communicate with them and we know how to survive.

The last time I checked the enemy did not require a person to spell correctly.

I will admit I misspell many things that should not be a concern until it involves something I am in need of. So exactly how many times do people use encyclopedias in the military while in a war zone?


Raist

Originally posted by Raist

Not that it offended me or anything but when you’re in war why would you worry if the guy next to you can spell encyclopedia?
As long as he or she is intelligent enough to shot accurately and know who to shoot along with many other military survival skills I would think spelling would not be a concern. Unless you are talking about items they would need to survive in war if that is the case encyclopedia is still not important enough to spell.

The same goes for general geography. As long as they know they are in a certain area and can read a map then who cares if they know where to find Russia on a map? Why would a ground personnel need to know that when they are stationed in Iraq for instance?

I personally would be more worried with how well this person knows to protect him or her self and me. I could care less if they can spell or even have good grammar. So long as I can communicate with them and we know how to survive.

The last time I checked the enemy did not require a person to spell correctly.

I will admit I misspell many things that should not be a concern until it involves something I am in need of. So exactly how many times do people use encyclopedias in the military while in a war zone?


Raist

I wrote a pretty detailed answer to this question in my last post. Being educated likely means that you have improved decision making skills, which are valuable in wartime. Please read back and refer to my last post. And as to the comment of "who cares if they can find Russia on a map?" Would you really want someone in charge of a weapon that ACTUALLY COULDN'T find Russia on a map? I would want someone that stupid as far away from me as possible if they were in charge of real millitary hardware. "Iran" and Iraq" are spelled pretty closely alike. Imagine if a pilot couldn't spell well enough to drop a bomb on the right one. Thanks.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

Andy, that's what I figure...

Originally posted by andyzero1234


I wrote a pretty detailed answer to this question in my last post. Being educated likely means that you have improved decision making skills, which are valuable in wartime. Please read back and refer to my last post. And as to the comment of "who cares if they can find Russia on a map?" Would you really want someone in charge of a weapon that ACTUALLY COULDN'T find Russia on a map? I would want someone that stupid as far away from me as possible if they were in charge of real millitary hardware. "Iran" and Iraq" are spelled pretty closely alike. Imagine if a pilot couldn't spell well enough to drop a bomb on the right one. Thanks.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

To start let us look at how that works. He would not need to find Russia on a map; all he would need to do is type in the coordinates told to him. The last time I understood you did not have Rambo style people who just launched weapons where ever they thought they needed to deploy them. The military works as a team a not as a solo individual meaning more than one is in charge of decisions. The common solider is not going to be making a decision like that unless things are extremely bad in which case at that point it most likely would not matter anyway. That is why they have Generals and other high up officers to make the important decisions. Those type of people do require a certain amount of intelligence so your high school drop out might not make it to a high ranking officer who does make important decisions.


Now back to the spelling issue. The last I check spelling did not influence a person’s critical decision making. Though there might be a time one might need to know how to spell a certain item in order to know what to grab or receive but I would only hope they know how to spell those things. If they are looking for a certain ration I could careless if he could spell encyclopedia. If he is putting in correct coordinates that he is told to put in I don’t care if he knows where Russia is on a map.

Just because one has a high school diploma does not mean they are intelligent. Look at the number of people out there that graduate that can not read or write some can not even do basic math. I would say it is very likely that many of the high school graduates today could not pass a GED test let alone read a map. Our society now is hurting because so many high school graduates can not even figure out basic budget spending.

Having a piece of paper that says they graduated school does not mean they are good decision makers. The military is designed to turn your average person into a decision making person with confidence and some basic leadership qualities. High school simply can not give our students the life influencing knowledge that many have decided it does.

Raist

Originally posted by andyzero1234
Boondock, No offense, but how do you know "the education system is corrupt" if you dropped out in the 10th grade?

^^^i am pretty up to date on the school systems around here. i had 3 brothers graduate 2 years ago, another graduated last year, i have one going into highschool next year and my mother in law has worked for the school for about 15 years....i know enough

Why is school not a good thing?

^^it's a good thing to a point.

I really hate to point out the glaring irony of you bashing education and at the same time not spelling or constructing sentences correctly but... there it is.

^^^not really. it is just total lack of caring....you get the message yes? i don't worry about proper puncuation and indentation on a message board. i tend to type like i talk....just the way it is.
for all you know, i could suck at spelling but be a math whiz.
fact is, you know nothing. only what you see on here.


And I think what Speaker was implying that the smarter a person is, the more effective he is in war. Education improves the decision making process, that is why it is important to know how to spell even if you don't necessarily need to in combat.

just don't agree with the last part....o well. not the first time.

how much should they know how to spell? common, everyday words or real obscure stuff too?
i stand by what i said. my kid will be taking the exam when he is old enough. if at that time he wants to stay in then by all means, thats fine.

Originally posted by Raist


Now back to the spelling issue. The last I check spelling did not influence a person’s critical decision making.

^^^you're right because it don't


Just because one has a high school diploma does not mean they are intelligent.

^^^absolutely correct. a moron can finish high school. you need intelligence to make it in the real world...you know, the kind of stuff you don't learn in school.


Look at the number of people out there that graduate that can not read or write some can not even do basic math. I would say it is very likely that many of the high school graduates today could not pass a GED test let alone read a map.

^^^^you're right on that too. i bet if you ask 100 graduates walking th streets of new york, just at random to point out russia on a map, a handful wouldn't be able to....
so what?
maybe they do trig in their head...


Having a piece of paper that says they graduated school does not mean they are good decision makers.

^^^it never meant anything my career. everytime i applied for a job and it came to that question of highest level completed, i always put down that i graduated. nobody checks anyway....actually, if you work somewhere that is going to maybe eventually pay for a college coarse, they will check then.
i was a mechanic. they never checked. it never mattered a single bit that i did not have a diploma. my spelling was never an issue either.
i loved my job, it was a solid career, made great money and had good hours....didn't need the school. least not public school.
my real education started when i was about 16

pretty good post man...i agree on most parts.

Originally posted by Raist

To start let us look at how that works. He would not need to find Russia on a map; all he would need to do is type in the coordinates told to him. The last time I understood you did not have Rambo style people who just launched weapons where ever they thought they needed to deploy them. The military works as a team a not as a solo individual meaning more than one is in charge of decisions. The common solider is not going to be making a decision like that unless things are extremely bad in which case at that point it most likely would not matter anyway. That is why they have Generals and other high up officers to make the important decisions. Those type of people do require a certain amount of intelligence so your high school drop out might not make it to a high ranking officer who does make important decisions.


Now back to the spelling issue. The last I check spelling did not influence a person’s critical decision making. Though there might be a time one might need to know how to spell a certain item in order to know what to grab or receive but I would only hope they know how to spell those things. If they are looking for a certain ration I could careless if he could spell encyclopedia. If he is putting in correct coordinates that he is told to put in I don’t care if he knows where Russia is on a map.

Just because one has a high school diploma does not mean they are intelligent. Look at the number of people out there that graduate that can not read or write some can not even do basic math. I would say it is very likely that many of the high school graduates today could not pass a GED test let alone read a map. Our society now is hurting because so many high school graduates can not even figure out basic budget spending.


Raist

First of all, no one said anything about "your basic soldier." We are talking about military personnel in broad, general terms here. Maybe this person will never be in a direct combat situation, maybe they will. What started this whole discussion was the statement that military people needing to be, or should be intelligent enough to "find Russia on a map," not because they will ever have to, but because they are often in situations of life or death and should have the intelligence to make correct decisions. My point was that if you can't find Russia on a map, something any 10 year old could do, you probably aren't generally intelligent enough to be making life or death decisions. I'm not saying that you have to be a high school graduate to be in the military, but you should have some basic knowledge in your head. The kind of stuff you would likely have if you had some amount of school, be that in the military itself or college or high school or trade school or whatever. If you are smart enough to drop out and still be a good soldier then great, awesome. The problems come when we get scary, undisciplined young people with the authority to kill handling weapons and not really knowing right from wrong. Several people in this thread, including myself have met these types of scary people and expressed our concern about who is getting to run around with guns. School teaches not just knowledge but social skills, something a soldier would need to work in a team or deal with local people around him. Sure, I agree that "Having a piece of paper that says they graduated school does not mean they are good decision makers." but going to school certainly increases the ODDS that they have more intelligence and therefore are better decision makers than someone who never went. Bottom line is that the military is in need of better psychological profiling to weed out some of the people causing the problems we see every day in the newspaper. Plus, I'd really like to think that anyone holding a weapon and the people directing them could at least find Russia on a map, thats pretty simple stuff for someone in charge of lives.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

And Boondock, Sure- you may not care if you type correctly or spell correctly but it really hurts how seriously people take you and how well people can understand you. Learning to type correctly is an important communication skill these days and if you "don't care" don't be surprised if people don't take the message behind the post seriously. I'd love for you to tell me precisely how "the education system is corrupt" as well.

Originally posted by andyzero1234
What started this whole discussion was the statement that military people needing to be, or should be intelligent enough to "find Russia on a map," not because they will ever have to, but because they are often in situations of life or death and should have the intelligence to make correct decisions.

^^^^started before that when speakeroftruth said he would not want to be in combat with someone beside him that couldn't spell or something to that effect. you brought up russia

My point was that if you can't find Russia on a map, something any 10 year old could do, you probably aren't generally intelligent enough to be making life or death decisions.

^^^^i disagree with this too. there are autistics that can find russia on a map. there are different types of 'smarts' or 'intelligence'....i agree, that people should be able to point out russia but many can't and you know what? who gives a rats balls?
i can but do you know how long it's been since i have had to?


The kind of stuff you would likely have if you had some amount of school

^^^bingo, bango....SOME amount of school. my the time my son turns 15-16, he will have had 'the correct amount', imo.


School teaches not just knowledge but social skills,

^^^it also teaches kids how to be 'gangsta' and discriminate...all kinds of good stuff.

Plus, I'd really like to think that anyone holding a weapon and the people directing them could at least find Russia on a map, thats pretty simple stuff for someone in charge of lives.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

when people are shooting at you with automatic weapons, i still fail to see how it is important to find russia on a map.
a bullet from a bad speller is just as deadly as a bullet from a great speller. it don't matter

Originally posted by andyzero1234
And Boondock, Sure- you may not care if you type correctly or spell correctly but it really hurts how seriously people take you and how well people can understand you. Learning to type correctly is an important communication skill these days and if you "don't care" don't be surprised if people don't take the message behind the post seriously. I'd love for you to tell me precisely how "the education system is corrupt" as well.

people can take me however the hell they want to. as i said, i don't care. i feel like i get my point across well enough with my horrible spelling and sentence structure.

we're gonna go into how the schools in my area are corrupt now?
just little things that bug me.

there are money cuts at school but as usual, the football team has new crap, while the music class is left hanging with broken stuff or the library don't get as many books this year.
it is full of BS PLASTIC CRAP like homecoming, prom, pep rally's and all that kind of junk.
the dumbed down programs they are on.
then there are local issues....

other than that, it's not really any of your concern so lets leave it at that...hows that


i'd rather my 15 year old spend 6 hours at the public library instead of 6 hours in a public school.

Sigh, You really must not have read my post... We are, last time I checked talking about military personnel in general, from a soldier on the front lines to the guy fixing aircraft to the medics and cooks. My point is that if you go to school and learn things you are more likely to have the discipline to not make mistakes and are MORE LIKELY, (ALTHOUGH NOT ALWAYS) to have the social skills to work better with others and treat people well. For example, remember when all the pictures from Abu Ghraib prison of soldiers mistreating prisoners came out? Those were scary, stupid people that decided it would be a good idea to torture prisoners. These are the people we need to weed out of our armed forces, and making sure that they have the GENERAL intelligence to make good decisions, and are not crazy is very important. This should be done with psychological tests and the most basic of academic tests.

the hieght of my schooling was prolly eighth grade....they gave us the last of the "necessary english" and just over basic math...

when i reached high school....i never took any of the homework home...and just based on my previous 8 years of school...i was able to take the tests...and ace them...thereby passing all my classes with c's...

and when i got to algebra 2nd semester...and we started learning graphing equations....since there was no need for that in real life...i chose not to do it...i failed that semester...and they made me take the entire year over again...without going to the next math level which was geometry...however...i had friends who actually tried and failed..and were allowed to take only the semester they failed over...and go to the next level of math............and for the next year i made 3 bucks off of each of them per assignment....

highschool is just a holding ground because today's sensitive people dont think people over 14 are ready for the world....but just about 100 years ago...people recieved the final portion of their education at about 12-14...and went out into the world and acted as a good member of society...working and such...wether it be thier fathers buisness or whatnot...


and the military's been good for one of my other friends who dropped out and joined the army....he's married now and lives in germany....


p.s.....in basic you learn plenty of discipline it'd take not to make mistakes...i still wince anytime i hear somebody yell..."airman!"

[edit on 14-8-2007 by wenfieldsecret]

Originally posted by Boondock78

Originally posted by andyzero1234
And Boondock, Sure- you may not care if you type correctly or spell correctly but it really hurts how seriously people take you and how well people can understand you. Learning to type correctly is an important communication skill these days and if you "don't care" don't be surprised if people don't take the message behind the post seriously. I'd love for you to tell me precisely how "the education system is corrupt" as well.

people can take me however the hell they want to. as i said, i don't care. i feel like i get my point across well enough with my horrible spelling and sentence structure.

we're gonna go into how the schools in my area are corrupt now?
just little things that bug me.

there are money cuts at school but as usual, the football team has new crap, while the music class is left hanging with broken stuff or the library don't get as many books this year.
it is full of BS PLASTIC CRAP like homecoming, prom, pep rally's and all that kind of junk.
the dumbed down programs they are on.
then there are local issues....

other than that, it's not really any of your concern so lets leave it at that...hows that


i'd rather my 15 year old spend 6 hours at the public library instead of 6 hours in a public school.

That is something I think we can finally agree on. The funding situation in our schools is absolutely HORRIBLE. I can see how that could be labeled as corruption. I think that we really do need public reforms to make sure that schools get the funding they need, and I feel that way because I believe that education is important. Its also funny how not only can our schools afford giant football stadiums and sports facilities but also how we can drop 3 million dollar bombs on Iraq and not further subsidize general and higher education. I bet for the price of ONE of those new f-22 Raptors we could send 10,000 kids to college for free.
Also, quite frankly I agree that spending time in the library educating yourself instead of someone else telling you what to do is more productive. I never said that people have to finish high school, just that you don't stop learning. If that is teaching yourself or having someone else teach you I don't think it matters.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

Originally posted by andyzero1234
This should be done with psychological tests and the most basic of academic tests.

agreed. leave graduating highschool out of it.

Originally posted by andyzero1234
just that you don't stop learning. If that is teaching yourself or having someone else teach you I don't think it matters.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

when did i say i want my child to stop learning? you guys all assumed that.
i said i want them out of the school system at around 15 years old.
ou guys all deduced from there.


[edit on 14-8-2007 by Boondock78]

First of all, I never said anything about graduating from high school at all. I simply stated that I thought intelligent people would do better in the armed forces, and that the more schooling you had the more likely you are to be intelligent. I think this started when some of us were taken aback by you saying that you hoped your kid dropped out as soon as he could, if we incorrectly assumed that you wanted him to not learn, I'm sorry.

[edit on 14-8-2007 by andyzero1234]

let me be clear. i want my son to take the exam at 15-16(whatever age is as soon as possible), IF he wants to and get the hell out of school.

that does not mean by a long sho that my then out of school 15 year old will be sitting on his ass or running with his homies all day.

there will be production and that can very....thats an issue for his mother and i.

if he wants to stay in school, thats fine. at that age, he is old enough to make his decision.
i also will not pay for college but if he decides to go, fine.

the only asperations i have for my son is that he is happy.

if happy for him is making 80k a year as some high end accountant or whatever and live in the big city, thats cool.
if he ends up wanting to be a mechanic and own his own shop, thats cool.

if he wants to live in a studio apartment and be an artist and attempt to sell his work, THAT is cool, so long as he is happy.
in my 30 short years i have a lot of mileage on this body.

i have degenerating discs in my back and have had a titanium cage back there for years. the youngest/best years of my adult life, when i had a young child were taken from me due to surgeries and therapy, meds, etc...
cut to 11 years later and i still have problems.
i know it is off topic but you think a bit different. i had a liver cancer scare. constant pain every day. no prosepect of getting better, just another surgery that don't have good odds.
i try to be happy and i come close.

i just want my boy to be happy.
i want him to be RESPONSIBLE and be a good person but do what he wants.
i will support whatever it is, even if i don't like it.


i don't know how else to explain it...i guess lotsa time on my back, in pain with nothing to do but think.

andyzero

Would you agree that the education of years gone by was not quite as informing as that of today? How many joining the military decades ago knew world geography or could spell properly all or most words? Yet did they not make good enough decisions to keep the US safe from the enemy?

Would you also agree that the education from the 80’s was not quite as informative of today? How many joining the military knew world geography well or could spell properly all or most words? Yet did they not make good enough decisions to keep the US safe from the enemy?

Granted education is important I will not say it is not, but it does nothing in the way of giving one common sense. Life lessons do this the military teaches some of those basic life lessons along with general socialization which can be learned by having friends and being social. Most jobs one has while in high school can even teach that much. It is the wisdom gained through living life and learning from experiences that give one the basic knowledge of survival. What they do not know they can learn in the military, that is what basic training teaches.

If we are talking about military personnel in general then you must realize that they must start at the bottom and work their way to the top. So once again general personnel are not going to be making the life and death situations you seem to be hinting at. If you mean in general battle, well if the guy or gal does not know to shoot back at those shooting at them then they pretty much are not worth the effort put into them. Such a person would not be able to make it through basic training if they lacked common knowledge.

I believe too many people are seeing this and thinking generals or high ranking officials. All the while they are forgetting you do not go into the military as an officer (at least I have never heard of such a situation). If someone who has not graduated makes it to officer then surely they have proven their worth.

We were speaking about graduation being a factor because that is what the article is related to. Just graduating does not help nor hinder the ability to make a decision; I doubt you would see any difference at all in my opinion. Again when using coordinates why does it matter if they can find a certain place a certain place on a map? All they need to know is coordinates, reading longitude and latitude on a map would probably be considered more difficult to most than world geography. I would wager a guess that many in the military now are not so hot with world geography. I would like to see a realistic study or statistics on that to tell the truth.

Too many people are equating this whole thing to people being bumbling idiots without a high school diploma. Granted things might be more difficult in the way of finding a job but there are jobs out there that pay half way decently for hard work without one. Plenty of people life comfortable happy lives, in their eyes which is all that matters without one. The whole issue with most people today is they think to much about being rich, when the best plan is just stay out of debt, well granted many will have a house payment that is almost a given.
You bring up the detention camps where people mistreated prisoners, well those were already in the military before this issue came out.
I would agree the only test they need to pass would be psychological, but I would be willing to say several would slip through that as well. That whole issue you are talking about was more revolved around a social learning type of issue. More of a case where people are learning violence from one another and then they feel a need to show off their newly learned skill to make them feel more a part of the crowd.

Remember though I was responding to Speaker when you quoted me and posted to me. So my posts about education where directed back at you in reference to my post to Speaker. You are talking about something completely different than that which is learned in formal education. Never in my school years did a teacher ever teach us the proper reaction to life situations, we were instead taught text book type of education. I learned proper socialization skills from family and friends. Basic survival skills or common knowledge tells me if I am being shot at to seek cover and if possible fire back. Again that is something not taught in a school class room, or at least it used to not be but now with school shooting it might be a good suggestion aside from the shooting back part. No one in theory or realistically should have a firearm at a school besides a possible guard if one is present.

Raist

Who in there right mind would want to join the Army? My grandad was a tank driver in WW2. He lied about his age to join, he was 15 years old. He joined the Army because he wanted to fight for his country, He wanted to defend his country, it was the noble thing to do. Fighting in these illegal wars isn't noble anymore and anybody who's got any sense wouldn't touch the army. I couldn't join the army knowing i might be carrying out orders in the name of a corrupt government. I wonder how long it takes for the soldier on the battlefield to realise what a mistake he's made!!


[edit on 15uWednesday07/27/20 by paul76]

[edit on 15uWednesday07/27/20 by paul76]