Military widens door for dropouts

Time to empty out our prisons....RFID TAG THEM
FLY THEM OUT load them up and turn them loose... tell them..bring back Bin Laden and you get a second chance....
PRISON to Glory...perfect No longer on US SOIL..perfect

Andy maybe you should accept that the reason they dont get what your saying is becuase they didnt get the education you speak of. Im not trying to insult anyone for their shortcoming just saying "a horse is a horse".

To add some fuel to the fire. I would not like having an ill-literate/uneducated person fighting in a war by my side. Heres why> in a war you have your brothers thats it- you protect them they protect you. If by chance you have a drop out or a criminal by your side, whats the odds of that person dropping out on you? Better than 0???? Its an issue of trust plain and simple.


War is real, and you need people who understand that. Im not trying to make sweeping generalizations but ive never met a well rounded drop-out:/ Never.


[edit on 15/8/07 by Glyph_D]

Originally posted by Glyph_D
To add some fuel to the fire. I would not like having an ill-literate/uneducated person fighting in a war by my side. Heres why> in a war you have your brothers thats it- you protect them they protect you. If by chance you have a drop out or a criminal by your side, whats the odds of that person dropping out on you? Better than 0???? Its an issue of trust plain and simple.



[edit on 15/8/07 by Glyph_D]

thats a buncha crap...there are hundreds of reasons why people stop going to school. quite often it is cause of their parents for example.
that has nothing at all to do with the 'brotherhood' of serving next to someone.

Originally posted by Boondock78
thats a buncha crap...there are hundreds of reasons why people stop going to school. quite often it is cause of their parents for example.
that has nothing at all to do with the 'brotherhood' of serving next to someone.

what yes its true there are many reasons why people quit school, i never said otherwise.

the "brotherhood" issue is about squads and fireteams trusting each other with their very lives. what i was saying was most "drop outs" are just that "drop outs". if you want to put your life in the hands of a drop out thats your business. i said i wouldnt. i fail to see how you misinterpreted what i said:/ but owell.

are you a drop out?

[edit on 15/8/07 by Glyph_D]

Originally posted by Glyph_D
Andy maybe you should accept that the reason they dont get what your saying is becuase they didnt get the education you speak of. Im not trying to insult anyone for their shortcoming just saying "a horse is a horse".

To add some fuel to the fire. I would not like having an ill-literate/uneducated person fighting in a war by my side. Heres why> in a war you have your brothers thats it- you protect them they protect you. If by chance you have a drop out or a criminal by your side, whats the odds of that person dropping out on you? Better than 0???? Its an issue of trust plain and simple.


War is real, and you need people who understand that. Im not trying to make sweeping generalizations but ive never met a well rounded drop-out:/ Never.


[edit on 15/8/07 by Glyph_D]

I disagree here is why.
I will use myself as an example since I am one of those who “don’t get” what andy is saying.

I quit school because I hated it. It was teaching me nothing of interest and I was not a sports oriented person which seems to be all schools are pushing kids for these days.

I found jobs that paid a half decent wage got married and we bought a house. I later went to get my GED and received a very good score on it. I am now a father who is still married and holding down a full time job that pays very well for the area I live in. One of the better paying jobs around here. Now to top that off I am enrolled in collage as well to better myself even more. I am at this time maintaining a 4.0 GPA while being a full time husband, father, and employee. So because I did not graduate I would not be a good choice for the military because I did not learn to stick with things I started?

How many “idiots” that did not graduate can do exactly what I am doing now? I would bet that many could do it and here is why. High school was not a choice you decide to make it is for the most part pushed off on you. In life we make our own choices we can decide who we become. If a dropout decides to join and does it for good convictions be it career or honor or what ever they will stick with it.
This is something they recently started with the dropout thing is it not? How many people have deserted their “brothers” beside them on the line before this? Many that is what they call desertion that is why people get arrested so that is a loosing argument.

Graduating high school is not the issue with desertion that is a psychological issue that may only be seen in the form of a psychological evaluation.

So far all issues seem to be pointing more toward psychological issues and not intellectual issues. So should an in dept psychological test be what we should worry about instead of someone having a diploma? After all basic training will teach them what they need to know to be a good solider or they will not pass. It dose not deal with people and their psychological issues to my knowledge though.

I see a great deal of stereotyping in this thread when it comes to people who did not graduate high school most of which is unfounded. I have seen people who did not graduate labeled as idiots, criminals, deserters, and basically degraded for no reasoning accept ignorance on the side of the person stating such things. How many of those have been brought to our attention that are or were in the military before this issue about graduating came up? How many people like this are elected officials all over this country?
High school diploma or not if a person is any of those things it they are going to be one or all of them, many have collage degrees and become such people.

first let me state the military is grabbing these kids "AS" they become drop outs not after they realize being smart works.

you are a perfect example.

Originally posted by Raist
Now to top that off I am enrolled in collage as well to better myself even more.

you know you didnt make the right decision, so you went back (and are still) and correcting that mistake. would you say you are(now) the same structured person your were then? i doubt you are, at somepoint reality slapped you a good one and youve been flying straight since.

If a dropout decides to join and does it for good convictions be it career or honor or what ever they will stick with it.

i can tell youve never really met a recruiting officer, "choice" really isnt their method of attack.

its true this issue is not anything new, HOWEVER "they" are perpetrating as if its a new thing. no doubt to get the attention of the "less desirables".

Graduating high school is not the issue with desertion that is a psychological issue that may only be seen in the form of a psychological evaluation.

however its a strong indicator of said behavior is it not?

So far all issues seem to be pointing more toward psychological issues and not intellectual issues. So should an in dept psychological test be what we should worry about instead of someone having a diploma?

you should also know the military is being lenient with people of low psych testing.

After all basic training will teach them what they need to know to be a good solider or they will not pass. It dose not deal with people and their psychological issues to my knowledge though.

training will try to uproot any idiosyncrasies they deem bad, but even if they fail "you" can still pass. as a matter of fact thats precisely what training is geared toward "people and their issues".


I applaud you for getting back on the horse, or any one who does the same. this topic is NOT about people like you, its about the people that want nothing to do with education or furthering their development as a person. in addition its targeting them before they can straighten their life out on their own.
EDIT: well i know im a bit wrong here, becuase they will attract the people that want thier GED.

you say you disagree but let me clear up the question abit. would you put your life in the hands of a 19 year old who never got passed the 10 grade? and lets say for the sake of makeing this question more interesting lets say he dropped out to sell drugs, and only joined up because the military is throwing him all kinds of benefits.

?

personally i would not.

[edit on 16/8/07 by Glyph_D]

Originally posted by Glyph_D

training will try to uproot any idiosyncrasies they deem bad, but even if they fail "you" can still pass. as a matter of fact thats precisely what training is geared toward "people and their issues".

[edit on 16/8/07 by Glyph_D]

the military will not just pass anyone they seem fit...i almost failed out because i slipped in the shower....

and we had a physc student who purposely failed the physc evaluation because he didnt want to be in the military after only 2nd week of basic...

Originally posted by Glyph_D
the "brotherhood" issue is about squads and fireteams trusting each other with their very lives. what i was saying was most "drop outs" are just that "drop outs". if you want to put your life in the hands of a drop out thats your business. i said i wouldnt. i fail to see how you misinterpreted what i said:/ but owell.

are you a drop out?

[edit on 15/8/07 by Glyph_D]

yes i am a drop out. i dropped out and started wrenching...i already said that in this thread. you must not have read that part....
what i do not get is all yoru crap about the brotherhood and trusting each other...
what does trust have to do with deciding that you do not want to go to school anymore?

you'd really be afraid to put your life in the hands of a 'drop out'?
if thats true, then basically, you suck.
you're stereotyping people and making people that quit school seem like they are stupid or not trustworthy.

school has nothing to do with that at all and these days, say post 8th grade it has little to do in the way of education as well.

it's all about conforming...

i don't see how you can label anyone, anything for dropping out.

telling the dude above that he knows he screwed up and thats why he went to college..
you're warped man.....

i can go to any state i want and get a job today, right now, all without a highschool education.
you probably, to some degree entrust your finances, your car repairs, etc etc on drop outs and you don't even know it.....

whatever, i'm done with you.

Originally posted by Glyph_D
and lets say for the sake of makeing this question more interesting lets say he dropped out to sell drugs, and only joined up because the military is throwing him all kinds of benefits.

?

personally i would not.

[edit on 16/8/07 by Glyph_D]

would you trust a 30 year old drop out that is a master tech and he dropped out because he dad was a drunk and he liked to eat?
personally, i would.

just to make it more interesting right....

*now i'm done with you...i had not seen this post

Originally posted by wenfieldsecret
the military will not just pass anyone they seem fit...

yes actually thats exactly what they do any one they deem fit. i went into the military and i saw some exceptional people and i saw some low rate people, both were given similar treatment and not one instructor gave up on any one.

your shower incident- was it a threat or were they getting the CO involved? if they got the CO involved... fine , but i doubt that; what they probably were doing was making your fear the future if you continue to fail.

and we had a physc student who purposely failed the physc evaluation because he didnt want to be in the military after only 2nd week of basic...

i meet alot of psych failure in my time in the military some got out some didnt.

*************

i know i might get a warning for this, but o well i feel it needs to be said.

if your a drop out your a failure. on some level you failed your self, your family, and your community. if you want to argue its ALL ABOUT conformity, i say grow the hell up. we all had to go through it and you felt you were better than the rest of us and got out(becuase it was to hard ) i know im being a dick right now but your not gonna see what im saying unless i piss you off(due to lower brain function id guess).


if you quit something we are all subjected to, whats gonna stop you from quiting "war" when it gets to real??????????????? i would not want a drop out by my side, would i stop fighting just because im surrounded by dropouts? NO , but i wouldnt like it one damn bit; because i dont trust you- your a quitter plain and simple and i dont need quitters protecting me.

if you can tell this isnt about being a drop out per se its a fundamental character flaw and on average "drop outs" drop out for the same reasons "selfishness".


if your like Raist then kudos to you, but dont try to defend these people.


hate me all you want, but when the sh*t hits the fan youll want people like me watching your back.

EDIT: i wanted to add something about the "brotherhood". the brother hood is a group of guys regardless of thier background fighting and dieing for one another. its not about friendship, its about doing your duty as a soldier. if i got to be your freind so youll watch my back get the hell away from me, i got more important sh*t to do than cater to your childish desires. for starters fighting a god d*amned war.


[edit on 17/8/07 by Glyph_D]

But I did make the right choice for myself. There were many reasons for my leaving high school it was not a place for me and even more so for me at that time.

Would I have trusted myself or someone like me from that time? Yes, the reason is because I have always been one to stick with things I chose to pursue. I have always been a friend who has been there for those around me. I chose to get the education I did because I really like to learn. Even before I chose to follow a career with collage I used to read daily. I read educational articles and watched educational media.
High school though was not for me I had too many things to deal with and the things the want the perfect student to focus on was worthless to me. I had and still have no need to follow society’s norms of what we need enjoy, I hate mindless garbage that most of society seems to charge after.

I have spoke with recruiters and when I was done with them they were babbling about eagles and flags and patriotism in a screaming voice. They brought up past soldiers and mentioned how they died honorable deaths (that I will not deny) for this country. They wanted me for these newer battles and wars that I find pointless and not worth throwing lives away for (I am not here to argue this subject so please leave it at that). Needless to say I have not received a call nor spoken to one in the years since that last call.

I still disagree about the not graduating thing being a issue that would lead to desertion. People have deserted before this and people leave school for many reasons.

If a 19 year old passed basic training even though he had not made it through the 10th grade I would trust him to fight beside me until he showed me a reason not to. I see no reason not to trust him to fight beside me and be a good soldier until then.

Someone who quits school to sell drugs is not going to join the army for any benefits they may be offering unless they are working at turning their life around. Anyone who has had any dealings with drugs at all knows the amount of money even small time dealers can make with no work at all. The risk of getting caught is still not strong enough to join the army just for benefits alone. So I stand with if someone quits to sell drugs and joins the army it is to turn their life around. The trouble of army life is far too much compared to the ease of a life selling drugs. Either way they are risking their life each day, they make much more money selling drug than in the military and selling drugs they are free to come and go as they please staying out late and waking up when they chose. The drug dealing question was a pretty poor choice in my opinion and would not happen unless for reasons I mentioned. But to answer your question but using my reasoning I would say I would trust them also unless they showed me a reason not to. They would be there after all to change their life not for benefits when they are going to be sent to war. Anyone joining today knows they are going to be sent to war that should not even be a question in anyone’s mind today. If you join you are getting shipped off no ifs ands or buts.

Edit:
I wanted to add I am the first in my family to go after a degree even my brother and sister that did graduate do not have one. I am the only one in my family who is not divorced I have been married for 7 happy years now. The thing is each person makes choices about their life; these choices make us each who we are later in life. A persons choices early on are not always sign of what their character is like. Never make hasty judgments about people often those assumptions can be wrong.

Raist


[edit on 8/17/07 by Raist]

[edit on 8/17/07 by Raist]

Lol how many of you posting here are actually in the military? I been in it for 26 years and I'm getting some real chuckles from these posts.


BTW I'm in the Air Force, but my neighbor is an Army recruiter and I'll ask him any question you all may like.


[edit on 17-8-2007 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by paul76
Who in there right mind would want to join the Army? My grandad was a tank driver in WW2. He lied about his age to join, he was 15 years old. He joined the Army because he wanted to fight for his country, He wanted to defend his country, it was the noble thing to do. Fighting in these illegal wars isn't noble anymore and anybody who's got any sense wouldn't touch the army. I couldn't join the army knowing i might be carrying out orders in the name of a corrupt government. I wonder how long it takes for the soldier on the battlefield to realise what a mistake he's made!!

Who in their right mind? Well, guys that want discipline. A structured lifestyle. A chance to better themselves. A chance to lead. Learn something they can use on the outside world to give them a chance to get ahead.

Joining the military now is still a noble thing to do, regardless of what people say about it. Usually, they are people that never joined in the first place.

Originally posted by Raist
The thing is each person makes choices about their life; these choices make us each who we are later in life.

my point exactly

A persons choices early on are not always sign of what their character is like.

this is also true, HOWEVER they arent aiming at the elderly they are going after the young. those to young to have had the opportunity to properly correct thier character. they are being scooped up while they are still naive(and unreliable:/).

EDIT:but what do they(military) care right?? chances are theyll(drop outs) be dead before they get a chance to run away:/

[edit on 18/8/07 by Glyph_D]

reply to post by jimbo999


Well excuse me, but I'm going into the Air Force right after high school (next summer), and I must disagree. I fit in with my environment quite well so I'm not a misfit. I am perfectly sane, so I'm not psychotic. I have quite a few really good friends, so I really don't think I'm too much of a social outcast. And I get decent grades, am going on to captain my school's varsity academic team for the second year (three years of captaining total if you include my time on the JV team), I recently had a job tutoring incoming freshmen, and I have finished all but two graduation requirements (I need one more year of English and gym, haven't failed either class yet), so I am not educationally challenged.

And it just so happens that all the fields that I have selected that I could potentially enter are much more than just shooting and bombing people. I could potentially work in avionics (you know, so the next time you fly on an airplane it doesn't just fall out of the sky), firefighting, or police work. All of which consist of a lot more than just killing people.

So please, don't stereotype those of us going into the military. I don't know which country you're from, but if you're an American then I'm going to fight for you and your freedoms. I consider myself a role model citizen, so I think that proves that the military attracts so much more than the groups you mentioned.



[edit on 8/18/2007 by cyberdude78]

Originally posted by UM_Gazz



Whatever happened to seeking out the "best and brightest"?



Some of these young people had problems with subjects like math in school, and simply for whatever reasons could not keep up, continuously failed, eventually dropped out and yet they can serve in the US military!




Some 17 year old girls and boys who may be having problems in school, could be enticed into these military programs, seek permission from their parents and ultimately escape the hell in school, for service in the military, but do they really know what they are getting into, or are their troubles being exploited by the Military recruiters?

a many level topic...


'best and brightest';
having a post graduate intellect will serve well for a few military occupational specialty(MOS)
...but All military personnel Must be able to follow orders.



a high school diploma only means that you received 12 years of formal education, and just accomplishing the time requirement does not equate into being a competent, aware, problem solving person.
In addition, some people are 'naturals' for different stations of life...
some are natural athletes, others are natural sharpshooters, etc




the pre-enlistment GED camp is a good 'gauntlet' the potential recruit can show 'what they're made of',
& if they have the will & determination to perservere.
I entered the Army when 17, prior to completing 12th grade.
Then while in Germany i passed the GED, with a score high enough
for a High School Equivelency Certificate from my home state of Pennsylvania.
After seperating from the service, I took the SAT to attend college in SC,
i scored above 1,100 which was enough to get an academic scholarsip award.

from my experience, a 'dumb' recruit (one without a H.S. diploma)
joining the military can be rewarding for the individual and the military.

--->> neither party is taking advantage of the other, imho

Intresting find. Could this be a precursor to compulsary military conscription

Originally posted by SmokeyJo
Intresting find. Could this be a precursor to compulsary military conscription

i read somewhere the term Economic Conscript

one could suppose that the outsourcing of decent paying jobs and the lax & easy credit environments has been engineered by think-tanks & the
elite puppet-masters (who secretly control our lives) to cause the social-economic conditions which would paint individuals into a corner....

and a reasonable option & compromise would be for all those people
from 17 to 42 years old, and in some degree of dire straits, to opt for voluntary military service.
In such a world a 'Draft' wouldn't be necessary as there will be enough
Economic Conscripts

Originally posted by St Udio

i read somewhere the term Economic Conscript

one could suppose that the outsourcing of decent paying jobs and the lax & easy credit environments has been engineered by think-tanks & the
elite puppet-masters (who secretly control our lives) to cause the social-economic conditions which would paint individuals into a corner....

and a reasonable option & compromise would be for all those people
from 17 to 42 years old, and in some degree of dire straits, to opt for voluntary military service.
In such a world a 'Draft' wouldn't be necessary as there will be enough
Economic Conscripts

Are you suggesting a Intrest rate rise, or the Dow Jones crashing would help the US military?

I guess if the dollar drops, weapons are cheaper, hence war is more cost effective?

Originally posted by SmokeyJo

Are you suggesting a Intrest rate rise, or the Dow Jones crashing would help the US military?

no, not in a direct way....but a family strapped with debt and a home months from forclosure, in-other-words in a disasterious situation,

might have an emergency family discussion
and an option might be for the youthful son or daughter to sign up for a 6 year hitch & send money support home.

sounds like a script for a 'Lifetime' channel TV drama...


the DOW index, or the NYSE markets would have little to nil impact on
the average poor-middle class families.
the Fed prime rate might have an impact though, as many families may have gotten caught into one of those sub-prime ARM mortgages that re-adjust as the Prime Rate moves up or down. Holding the potential that their house will get foreclosed or repossessed if payments fallbehind.

but i do see credit getting real tight & stringent - - as in credit cards being cancelled by the lenders & leaving the money starved card holders standing with empty pockets & their utilities cut-off because they could not borrow on ther MC or Visa cards any longer.

i can hear the message now, as the family members confer at the family kitchen table....
Son, stand up and be a man, take a tour of duty in the service---send home a couple hundred a month to save the house & family-- you'll be earning college money along the way thru the Army programs, -- you'll be learning a skill also... Let's Roll !!


that is the essence of a Economic Conscript