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Are we Living in a Simulated universe?

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posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:04 AM
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Ok here go's for my first lengthy post .. i have been an avid reader of ATS for about 4 months now but my other account i forgot password and i had to create a new one after 3 attempts at password retrievel not arrivin gin my mail box ..


Are We living in a Simulated Universe?


Firstly to have any understanding of this theory, one must admit the possiblity of our universe
existing within a Multiverse.




"A multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical set of multiple possible universes (including our universe) that together comprise all of physical reality. The different universes within a multiverse are called parallel universes. The structure of the multiverse, the nature of each universe within it and the relationship between the various constituent universes, depend on the specific multiverse hypothesis considered."


Wikis Multiverse description

If you discount the Multiverse theory in any shape or form then please ....Move along ..nothing to see here.


Ok down to business....

If we are prepared to entertain the notion that there exists a limitless number of universes that are unobservable from this one, should we rule out the possability of fake universes existing as surely every possibility already exists?................No reason at all...Infact we have EVERY reason to rule them in!!!

Its argued that no civilization in any of the universes are likely to acheive this point of stupendous computanional power..however the multiverse theory allows ALL possible variations on a theme so somewhere humanity (or other civilization) does survive to the point of being able to simulate fake universes.

wether consciousness can be simulated by computer is another argument altogether, are we just a collection of our atoms? our do we have a 'Soul' (Argumeny for another day). but for now lets assume it can for the purpose of this discussion.

So eventually it is Inevitable that some universes like ours would give rise to universe simulating super civilizations. these universes will then spawn a Vast number of fakes, so that in the total mix of real and fake universes, fake ones will overwhelmingly predominate....(eg.. it only takes 1 universe to simulate a fake universe.. thus creating another simulated civilization that in turn would then simulate their own fake universes .... and so on and so forth) so if there are many more fake universe than real ones.. statistically speaking it is highly probable that u, me and everything u see is a simulation running on some level of all the simulated universes.. unless we happen to be on the top tier ...

Logically there is no end to the nested amount of universes providing a simulated universe has enough computational power and resources to build its own simulated simulation universe..in fact we may live in a simulation being run by another simulation two steps removed from the real reality.

The 'Real' universe could be lost amid an infinite regress of nested fakes.. or it may not even exist at all.

So with the possibilty of Vastly more fake and simulated universes exisitng i ask you all again ..'Are We Living In A Simulated Universe'


'Exerpts taken from 'The goldilocks enigma' - Paul davies ( a great book discussing ALL possibilities of the existence of the universe, one of which i have focused on here)


Well thats my lot, be gentle on me, like i said my first time attempting to post a serious topic ... am bracing myself for responses...and sry if i have broken any etiiquete here or if this topic has already been exhausted in another thread..

Ty all for your time .



ATS......Discuss pls

and where are the ATS,PTS,BTS points nothing showing on the left for me? removed from forums or need to install something to see it?

if u can answer any of these 2 question feel free to post




posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:06 AM
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Scientists have claimed that they can create a completely new universe in a lab. If that's true then there's no reason that our universe can't have been created by "someone", in my opinion.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:48 AM
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Someone or something .. a super advanced civilization and thus this is not reality as reality actually is ( sad thing is if so we may as well chuck all our laws of physics out the window)

as these are not realities laws of physics the just our realities laws of physics and thus programme dby another being ..

pls i dont want this post turning into a religous argument ...

my personal view is the Universe looks very very much like intelligent Design (wether it appears that way just because if not we wouldnt be around to make that observation in the first place.)

or it actually has been designed, simulated or real i dont want the atypical god discussions to erupt as in my opinion most of the major religions have probably got some, if not all there facts wrong or maybe just a couple of things right ..who knows another discussion i guess.

if the multiverse exisits..then the numbers of simulated universe would vastly poutgrow the real or real universes thus what are the odds we are living in a simulation?



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:54 AM
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Excellent post!

This is why I believe nothing in our own universe can be proven. If we can't prove we exist, how can we prove things such as the laws of physics. If you have an apple on your desk, you could say there is an apple on your desk, but you still can't prove it since it becomes a moot point if everything in our universe is just a physical representation of brain waves.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:04 AM
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Science doesn't seek to "prove" anything. It seeks evidence. And when there is a lot of strong empirical evidence, then it's a given that the thing exists, at least until the boundaries of what science knows changes, then the level of evidence needs to change as well.

At the moment there is no evidence we can see that indicates our universe is simulated. And I'm not sure how we would get such evidence if we were, or interpret it if we did. What would evidence that we aren't a "natural" universe look like?

Which brings me to a particular conundrum: if we are part of the natural world, then how can anything we produce be unnatural? Just for thinking's sake of course. So how could you tell the difference between a natural and unnatural (i.e., simulated) universe?

[edit on 17-7-2007 by MajorMalfunction]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:05 AM
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Originally posted by curiousbeliever
Excellent post!

This is why I believe nothing in our own universe can be proven. If we can't prove we exist, how can we prove things such as the laws of physics. If you have an apple on your desk, you could say there is an apple on your desk, but you still can't prove it since it becomes a moot point if everything in our universe is just a physical Text Red.


This is also true u and i both know that aint no apple on the desk .. hell it isnt even a desk .. its a collection of signals organised by your brain that has arranged the information to the best our human capacity will allow ..



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:09 AM
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Quantum, ATS is not exactly yours finding answers u posted. Visit forum.physorg.com...



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:12 AM
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True you have to have evidence ... ok so if i was desinging a simulated universe, and i set up all my calculations in advance for my universe ..

then a few moments in i realise i made a mistake with my calculations so i go into my program and change something to better my universe.

if we were in a simulated universe the 'inghabitants should' .. see /notice these effects/changes.


there is some observational evidence for a slight tweak in strength of the electomagnetic force about 6 million years ago. was someone turning the dial and fine tuning our cosmic simulation.. ?



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by Quantum_Squirrel

if we were in a simulated universe the 'inghabitants should' .. see /notice these effects/changes.



Ah, but would they? If the rules of the universe change, then wouldn't the inhabitants of the universe change with the change in natural law? Sort of like the theory of time travel that if you go back in time and change something in the timeline, when you go back to your time in the future everything has changed, and nobody notices but you -- who was the instigator of the change and the only vestige left of the other configuration of the timeline?

Or maybe I've read Bradbury's The Sound of Thunder one too many times.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:22 AM
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no your right i agree there is that possibilty also .... any changes made may just seem to be natural occurences totally undetectableby us.. theorised away but never explained as many things often are.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:22 AM
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aye, by definition our bodies exist in a virtual reality, not unlike a computer simulation. the true essence of stuff is beyond the comprehension of our physical senses, we just approximate to see it's an apple, as you said. i imagine that universes evolve somewhat like life does, part by accident, part stage-managed. the best conclusion is to appreciate & enjoy the ride.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by wigit
Scientists have claimed that they can create a completely new universe in a lab. If that's true then there's no reason that our universe can't have been created by "someone", in my opinion.


Yes, Ive read and heard that as well. They claim that once created, the new universe will simply coexist around ours, not swallow it up or anything like that, so whos to say that they havent done it already.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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I don't think there would be a major problem with the universe if you went back in time and killed your grandaddy. Not that I'd want to. If you got a time machine and went back to before your parents were born and shot your grandpa, then come back to this time and find you still exist and your parents are alive then it would just be a puzzle to you, nothing major in the grand scheme of the universe. I'd ask did I kill the wrong guy? Was my grandma a naughty girl? or, Have I gone off my head, I was sure that was real?Back to the simulated universe - I think the mind is the mover in all this that surrounds us and it could be that, the more powerful the mind the more power full stop. There could be truth in that myth that the devil "collects souls" for that specific purpose, i.e. power over the heavens/or earth or wherever he/she likes.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by MajorMalfunction

Which brings me to a particular conundrum: if we are part of the natural world, then how can anything we produce be unnatural? Just for thinking's sake of course. Text Yellow[edit on 17-7-2007 by MajorMalfunction]



Thats definatly a head spinner ... but i think for sanity's sake you have to class unatural as anything not natural to us and current laws.. (thats all we can judge from)

like the 2 fish in the bowl .. we can discuss every 7 seconds what the 'water' is like outside the bowl? really deep 7 second hypothesis could emerge .. but when the designer scoops us out and we find out what the water is like outside the bowl ...and that its not water at all!! all ...at least the fact that we discussed it originally gained us some knowledge that there is 'Something' out there .. surely better than living in ignorance

[edit on 17-7-2007 by Quantum_Squirrel]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 05:28 PM
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Maybe the universe is really more like Photoshop, with layers on top of layers that, together, make up the big picture. Haha.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 08:44 PM
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It could be simulated, I think we live in a projected universe. I think there is an Objective Reality that our Subjective Reality is a projection of. Beyond that our mind and our senses make our reality even more subjective. It literally is different for each person.



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:10 PM
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LOL This thread remined me of the ending of one of the Men In Black Movies where the camera went off Earth and past the solar system, and other places, the milky way then to a ball and inside the ball was teh galaxy or universe. And we were like a Marble mixed in a bag with other "marbles" with a giant alien holding it in the palm of his hand


I WAS LIKE WTF THATS CRAZY!!!!! THAT WAS AWESEOME TOO!!11!!1



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 09:20 PM
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"How Likely is it that the universe is fake? The key point here is fake universes are incomparably cheaper than real ones. to make a fake universe you just have to process information, and although that costs some energy (computers get hot), it is far less than the energy required to make 10 to the power of 50 tonnes of matter.

The simulation need not be precise in every detail so as long as we dont notice the walls wobbling we would be unaware of the fakenes sof our universe.

Given these facts it is clear that one super-civilization inhabiting a real universe could at relatively little cost simulate an almost limitless number of fake universes the ratio of fake to real is likely to be enourmess..

if, then, given sentient beings cannot distinguish a simulation from reality, the vast majority of beings are likely to be simulated. It follows that you or i are almost certainly simulated beings." - Quote from Nick Bostrom

[edit on 17-7-2007 by Quantum_Squirrel]



posted on Jul, 17 2007 @ 10:51 PM
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Very interesting thought, gives me a headache trying to wrap my head around such ideas. One thing I am wondering more than anything else; is it even possible for computer intelligence to reach a level of self aware consciousness like that of a human beings? Probably a hard question to answer since we still don't fully understand our own consciousness.



posted on Jul, 18 2007 @ 12:15 AM
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One question mind often has regarding universes and such is this: If such laws such as the law of attraction exist (which work to manifest/create personal universes/experiences, how can we coexist in one objective universe? That is, say I used the law of attraction (as per the secret) to manifest one type of reality. How could another person use the law to create another reality? If they differ, they cannot coexist. That is the main reason I understand reality as either having multiple universes, each branching off with each different moment/creation by individuals, OR this is the only universe and you are all in my dream/imagination.

Which is it?



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