Wrong galaxy, I am afraid!

Again...if we were above the plane of our Milky Way - we would clearly see the spiral arms. But we do not see them, we see a band -line in the sky- bulges.

If we were living in elliptical galaxy - we would see stars spread all over - but no line or bulges of dense stars and nebulas and dust in the night sky.





source

Originally posted by Yandros
We are in an outer region of the milky way.

Ehhhh...not really. We're about 1/3 of the way in on a big spiral arm.

We are at 90 degrees to the plane of rotation of the milky way.

No. 60-90 degrees, which will be changed as more info comes along. We have been here in this same location for at least 5 billion years (rotating through space along with the galaxy.)

And we are moving in the opposite direction to the spin of the milky way?

None of the scientific papers said this.

Some thoughts on being part of the collision:
• Could this explain pole swaps?

The pole swap is something that does happen in rotating fluids... doesn't need a galactic whatsis to make it happen. And the pole flip happens every 11 years or so for the sun.

• Could our trip around and around have us brush with intelligent life every now and then? Does this explain the men in flying machines from the heavens in 6000 year old scriptures? And does this explain why they are no longer here?

No, our solar system isn't careening off like a rocket gone astray. The nearest stars are billions of miles away, and we haven't been near them for 10 billion years or more.

As I wrote previously - SagittDEG is not the only one that is merging with Milky way.

In 2003 -till that unknown galaxy is found to be pulled by Milky Way - Canis Major and is more CLOSER to our solar system than 1994 SagittDEG -25 000 LY. And there are several others to merge in.

Any Mayan prediction on these one!?



source

Originally posted by blue bird
Again...if we were above the plane of our Milky Way - we would clearly see the spiral arms. But we do not see them, we see a band -line in the sky- bulges.

Right but you assume that we are at an angle from the plane of rotation great enough to see the spiral arms against empty space. If we are at only a slight angle, and yet still coming out of the plane, then it would still appear as a line.

How do we even know the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy? We have no way of seeing it from above. As far as I know, this is just an informed guess to begin with based on the shape of other galaxies we can see from above.

There is also the problem of the speed of light. How old is the picture we are seeing? And has it been subject to gravitational distortion?

Originally posted by Yandros
How do we even know the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy? We have no way of seeing it from above. As far as I know, this is just an informed guess to begin with based on the shape of other galaxies we can see from above.

Actually yes we can see it from above. We have space telescopes. They've probably taken pictures that proove Milky Way to be a spiral galaxy.

Bluebird, thanks for taking your time to clear a lot of things up for me!

Originally posted by Byrd

And we are moving in the opposite direction to the spin of the milky way?

None of the scientific papers said this.

Then that was most likely a misrepresentation by the media. The first line of the abc.net.au article was:

Our solar system is travelling in a different direction to the rest of the Milky Way, scientists say.

Originally posted by ZikhaN
Actually yes we can see it from above. We have space telescopes. They've probably taken pictures that proove Milky Way to be a spiral galaxy.

Oh sure, and these would be those space telescopes we launched over 1,000,000 years ago at the 1/10th the speed of light? Or not.

Short of complete 180 degree gravitational lensing, something I am pretty sure is nearly impossible, we cannot see our own galaxy from above.

Originally posted by Yandros

Originally posted by ZikhaN
Actually yes we can see it from above. We have space telescopes. They've probably taken pictures that proove Milky Way to be a spiral galaxy.

Oh sure, and these would be those space telescopes we launched over 1,000,000 years ago at the 1/10th the speed of light? Or not.

Short of complete 180 degree gravitational lensing, something I am pretty sure is nearly impossible, we cannot see our own galaxy from above.

Actually you're right. I just seriously thought I'd seen a telescope image of the spirals, but I guess I'm wrong.

It held the title of our nearest intergalactic neighbor for nine years, but lost it in November 2003 to the then newly discovered Canis Major Dwarf.

Its our next closest neighbour along with a intergalatic globular cluster named M54. It in fact has been able to not be captured it appears due to Dark Matter residing in its contents

SagDEG is one of the most recently discovered members of the Local Group, being the closest at 88,000 light years away and is currently in a very close encounter to our Milky Way galaxy. It is apparently in process of being disrupted by tidal gravitational forces of its big massive neighbor in this encounter. Nevertheless it is apparently big: 5x10 degrees in the sky.

In February 1998, a team of astronomers headed by Rosemary Wyse of John Hopkins University found that SagDEG orbits the Milky Way Galaxy in less than one billion years. Because it must have passed the dense central region of our Galaxy at least about ten times, it is surprising that the dwarf has not been disrupted for so far. Astronomers suspect that this fact is an indication for significant amounts of dark matter within this small galaxy, which ties the stars stronger to the galaxy by its gravity. We have their press release here, or you can read their original report online.

seds.lpl.arizona.edu...

More information on the encounter and again Dark Matter is implicated. It appears to be holding its own. In fact notice its position is on the OTHER side of the Milky Way. I think its starting to look ovbious that our sun is and always was part of the Milky Way.

The Milky Way is being invaded by another galaxy. But don't panic; we've got the size advantage.

Astronomers have known since 1994 that a small galaxy orbiting the Milky Way has actually entered Earth's home galaxy. A team of scientists made the discovery unexpectedly while analyzing stars in the concentrated, elliptical bulge at the center of our own galaxy.

They realized that certain stars, which all had essentially the same velocity, were not moving in the proper manner to be in the center of the Milky Way. They were found to be in a dwarf galaxy located along the line of sight to the center of our galaxy, but on the far side of the Milky Way.

central bulges and halos are more the area of study of Galatic Mergers then is the Orion Arm where we live

Astronomers are trying to understand more about a diffuse "halo" of stars that surrounds the central, elliptical bulge and disk of stars in the Milky Way and other galaxies. For example, how does the halo form? Does it represent the shredded bits of small satellites like Sagittarius?

Wyse said her findings indicate that, at most, 10 percent of the stars in the halo came from dwarf galaxies like Sagittarius, which merged with the Milky Way over the past 8 billion years or so.

Studying Sagittarius may help answer other questions, such as: Does the central bulge of our galaxy also come from merging companion galaxies, but from more dense pieces that were capable of migrating to the center? What types of stars make up other galaxies that we can study in great detail?

seds.lpl.arizona.edu...

[edit on 18-6-2007 by junglelord]

If this theory is true, then can someone explain this picture?



Oh look, the Sun isn't even in the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy. No wait a second, it's not even close to it

The sun is on it's respective side of the Milky Way as opposed to the Dwarf galaxy's position on the totally opposite side*confused*

If the Saggitarius Dwarf galaxy is positioned on the opposite side of the Milky Way, and is Elliptical, then how come we can't see it?

[edit on 18-6-2007 by ZikhaN]

Originally posted by Slashmy suspicions are telling me that some thing is going to happen in 2012. Can't say for sure what, it could be as simple as stars lining up,

Okay so lets look at 2012...

Just WHAT exactly has led everyone to believe that the end is coming in 2012? Even Sitchin says Nibiru may be around 2050...

Someone read a calendar and the cycle ends in 2012? Our calendars cycle ends Dec 31 every year, but guess what? it starts over with the next cycle...

We survived 2000, I bet we see the same in 2012..

But hey for all of you who truly believe it will all be over in 2012... thats only FIVE YEARS AWAY... so if you truly believe its going to be all over, should you not be out there making the most of those last years?

Most people that have a limited life span due to medical reasons generally do all they can to enjoy those last moments...

So all you folkes out there with this death wish, drop what your doing, quit your job, get off the computer and go live a little...

If not... well does the word "hypocrite" mean anything?

But hey maybe if enough people believe it... it may actually happen...

The Universe has a sense of humor...

"Your wish is my command..."

Originally posted by Byrd
Ehhhh...not really. We're about 1/3 of the way in on a big spiral arm.

A picture might help....

We are at 90 degrees to the plane of rotation of the milky way.

No. 60-90 degrees, which will be changed as more info comes along.

Not according to Stanford University...

"The Sun is moving upwards, out of the plane of the Milky Way, at a speed of 7 kilometers per second. Currently the Sun lies 50 light-years above the mid-plane of the galaxy, and its motion is steadily carrying it further away."

"But the gravitational pull of the stars in the Galactic (Milky Way) plane is slowing down the Sun's escape. The astronomer Frank Bash estimates that in 14 million years the sun will reach its maximum height above the Galactic disk. From that 250 light-year position, it will be pulled back towards the plane of the Galaxy. Passing through, it will travel to a point 250 light-years below the disk, then oscillate upwards again to reach its present position 66 million years from now. We crossed the plane 2 million years ago. We are currently in the thick of the galactic disk and our view of distant regions is largely blocked by dust but 10-20 million years from now, our motion will allow a full view of our starry galaxy."

Stanford University

We have been here in this same location for at least 5 billion years (rotating through space along with the galaxy.)

To make such a statement is very misleading to say the least...

Forgetting the fact that the Earth...
- wobbles on its axis
- rotates on its axia
- orbits the sun

The solar system is moving at tremendous speed through the Universe... I pointed out a few, Bluebird added to it... but the end result is that a person standing on the Earth is moving in many directions through space at phenomenal speed. I do not have the math skills to calculate a final vector, and as Bluebird pointed out... from which point in space?
As the galaxies are all moving away from each other, where do you set your reference point?

But if you were to "stand still" at a point in space... you would see everything whiz by at

Here are a few figures...

69,361 MPH Spin and Orbit
43,200 MPH Towards Lambda Herculis
15,624 MPH Perpendicular to Galactic Plane
446,400 MPH Orbiting the Galactic Center [or Galactic Spin Rate]
-------------------
574,585 MPH Speed of Earth within Our Galaxy

Now add this...

1,339,200 MPH This is the speed the galaxy according to NASA

[No I do NOT know how they got this figure...but I do know that if you ever wanted to find your way home you had better be very accurate)

So to make a statement like "We have been here in this same location for at least 5 billion years" is in my opinion not doing much to DENY IGNORANCE

The pole swap is something that does happen in rotating fluids... doesn't need a galactic whatsis to make it happen. And the pole flip happens every 11 years or so for the sun.

Yup right on with that one...

The Sun's magnetic poles will remain as they are now, with the north magnetic pole pointing through the Sun's southern hemisphere, until the year 2012 when they will reverse again. This transition happens, as far as we know, at the peak of every 11-year sunspot cycle -- like clockwork.

NASA Space Weather


Well looky here 2012!!! LOL at least we know the Solar Poles will flip in 2012. So now those of you following that can sound intelligent and say "I KNOW the sun's poles will flip in 2012

The nearest stars are billions of miles away, and we haven't been near them for 10 billion years or more.

Bah! Whats a few billion miles when you have a Stargate?



To Bluebird...

You beat me to it I got up this morning to address the "sideways" issue, but you got it In a few million years when we get out to that 250 light year distance above the rim... (we will really be "out of the loop" then) we will have a nice view of the Milky Way

[edit on 18-6-2007 by zorgon]

Originally posted by Yandros


How do we even know the Milky Way is a spiral galaxy? We have no way of seeing it from above. As far as I know, this is just an informed guess to begin with based on the shape of other galaxies we can see from above.

Guess..no - it is science!

We can pin down pretty much Milky way ( that part we do not see) by Doppler shifted radio emission = converted into distance of hydrogen clouds (Hulst method of 21 cm hydrogen line radiation), + Oort differential rotation - meaning that objects have greater angular speed if they are closer to galactic center Also Kepler: object that are near center rotate faster than object further from the center).

We know the objects which are nearer the center = greater red shift.

The rotation curve can be determined by looking at the doppler velocities of hydrogen gas along different lines of sight. The 21-cm emission will include contributions of hydrogen at different distances from the galactic center and different doppler shifts with respect to us. Some of the emission will be from gas clouds just inside the orbit the orbit of the Sun moving at slightly faster angular speeds than the Sun. They will have a small redshift. The part of the total emission coming from gas closest to the galactic center will have the greatest redshift because that gas is moving at the greatest angular speed. In the figure below the line from the galactic center to the fast moving gas (called ``Rmin'') makes a 90° angle with respect to our line of sight. Using basic trigonometry, the distance of the fast moving gas (at ``A'') from the galactic center = (the Sun's distance)× sin[(galactic longitude)], where the galactic longitude is the angular separation between the cloud and the galactic center and sin() is the ``trigonometric sine'' function (it is the ``sin'' key on a scientific calculator). Angle by angle, strip by strip, the rotation curve is constructed from the maximum doppler velocity along different lines of sight.

Once the rotation curve is determined, the Galaxy's structure can be mapped. The 21-cm line profile has several doppler shifted peaks that are narrow and well-defined (see the figure below). Using the known rotation curve, you can convert the doppler speeds of the peaks to get the distance to the hydrogen producing each peak. The intensity of each peak depends on the density of the hydrogen gas cloud. The mapping surveys show that the hydrogen gas is distributed in a spiral pattern in a thin disk for almost all of the Galaxy.

nick strobel


Or something in less complicated language:

** by looking with your own eyes -long band across the sky - central bulges ( like Sagittarius A) - suggesting disc shape

** measuring (radio mapping ...radio telescopes can detect far away objects coz radio wave travel trough dust ... detecting hydrogen atoms gathered at intervals that correspond to the distance between spiral arms) rotation velocities of stars, disc radius, distribution of stellar mass, halo..

**comparing it with other similar spiral galaxies - with the same proprieties ( majority of large galaxies are spiral /large disc around bulge - Milky Way is a big galaxy )

And we are learning every day...

[edit on 18-6-2007 by blue bird]

Welcome boys and girls to the GOD sector we are alive and well in deep space, and within a Deep Space comes a deeper consciousness.

Originally posted by zorgon

But if you were to "stand still" at a point in space... you would see everything whiz by at

Here are a few figures...

69,361 MPH Spin and Orbit
43,200 MPH Towards Lambda Herculis
15,624 MPH Perpendicular to Galactic Plane
446,400 MPH Orbiting the Galactic Center [or Galactic Spin Rate]
-------------------
574,585 MPH Speed of Earth within Our Galaxy

Now add this...

1,339,200 MPH This is the speed the galaxy according to NASA

[No I do NOT know how they got this figure...but I do know that if you ever wanted to find your way home you had better be very accurate)

So to make a statement like "We have been here in this same location for at least 5 billion years" is in my opinion not doing much to DENY IGNORANCE

To Bluebird...

You beat me to it I got up this morning to address the "sideways" issue, but you got it In a few million years when we get out to that 250 light year distance above the rim... (we will really be "out of the loop" then) we will have a nice view of the Milky Way

[edit on 18-6-2007 by zorgon]

Sitting and working hard

* rotation - Earth move 1000 miles /hr ( 1600 km/hr)

* revolution - Earth move 66 000 miles / hr ( 107 km/hr)

* Sun trip around Milky Way - 483 000 miles /hr ( 729 000 km/hr)
# ref. frame: center of the galaxy

* Milky Way- moving to Virgo Cluster - 1.3 mill miles/hr ( 2.1 mill km/hr)
# ref. frame: CBR



# Milky Way colliding with Andromeda:

When the Andromeda galaxy and our Milky Way galaxy are close enough, huge clumps of cold, giant molecular clouds, each measuring tens to hundreds of light-years across, will be compressed. Like plugging in a string of Christmas light bulbs, these dark knots will light up as millions of stars burst into life. Most of these stars will be in brilliant blue clusters, many of them 100 times brighter than the original globular star clusters already present in the two galaxies.

The disk of dust and stars that for billions of years marked the lanes of our galaxy and the Andromeda galaxy, will also begin to come apart under the gravitational pull of the two galaxies. As Andromeda swings past our galaxy, the sky will grow increasingly jumbled with tattered lanes of dust, gas, and brilliant young stars and star clusters.

So many new stars will be born that the fraction of massive stars that are present will increase dramatically. These stars will begin popping off like a string of firecrackers as they self-destruct as supernovae

After swinging by our galaxy, Andromeda will take perhaps 100 million years to make a slow and graceful U-turn, before plunging nearly directly into the Milky Way's core. Another, even more spectacular burst of star formation will then occur, with the winds from the supernovae driving most of the remaining gas and dust out of the galaxy. Soon both the old and new stars of the two galaxies will intermingle to form a single elliptical-shaped galaxy.

As the stars gravitationally settle into their new home, through a dynamic process called "violent relaxation", any hint of the Milky Way and Andromeda as majestic spiral galaxies will be gone. The band known as the Milky Way will be gone, but far in the future some astronomers might gaze out onto a starry sky and look all the way into the core of the new elliptical galaxy. They would have no clue that there were once two majestic spiral galaxies, called the Milky Way and Andromeda by a long forgotten civilization.

Imagine possibility of observing this....
many thanks to hubble site

There's a great article from the April 2005 Scientific American that describes how pole reversals happen. You need a subsciption to read it, but the text may be elsewhere on the web:

www.sciam.com...

Basically, the article describes how the molten core of the earth is like a dynamo.

To generate electricity, you basically run a motor in reverse (i.e., you supply the power to turn the motor's inner coil, and the outer coil sends electricity out the wires). The phenomena is called induction.

Because the earth spins, so does the molten metal core. But because of how angular momentum works, the outer edge of the molten core spins at a different speed than the inner portion. This same principle is why ice skaters pull their arms in towards their bodies when they want to spin faster.

The difference in the speed of rotation between the inner and outer portions of the earth's molten core causes the core to act like a dynamo.

Because the molten core is liquid and spinning, its shape changes periodically. Variations in temperture lead to variations in local density. The cumulative effect of these imperfections and variations are what cause the pole to shift. The cumulative effect of these individual anomalies is described in math and physics by "attractors," or sometimes in terms of "diffusion structures" in systems theory and information theory.

The dynamic system describing our motion relative to Sagitarious may undecidable, i.e. we may be greatly or not so greatly affected by Sagitarious and the most efficient way to find out may be to just wait and see.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by ghostryder21
i wonder if this will fuel further debate about the planet that comes into contact with earth every couple thousand years...sorry atm i dont really remember the name just the basic story.

It was "Nibiru" and the planet came into contact with the Earth in 2003.

What... you missed it? So did everyone else. The Nibiru flap was started by someone who channeled aliens. She's still around, still spouting nonsense, still saying that the planet is coming through "any day now."

Velikovsky also tried to say that Venus did this.

Both of them are ignorant of the fact that Earth civilizations have had writing for over 7,000 years and not one of these civilizations has ever recorded a giant planet cruising by (before you try to debunk that, first check with the ORIGINAL sources... what the people really wrote and not what some web page said they wrote.)

sorry for stating an idea. i thought the story was kinda intresting but never bought into the whole thing. i wasnt trying to debunk anything, i wasnt stating that it was going to happen i just thought it was an intresting side note.

Originally posted by blue bird

Guess..no - it is science!

We can pin down pretty much Milky way ( that part we do not see) by Doppler shifted radio emission = converted into distance of hydrogen clouds (Hulst method of 21 cm hydrogen line radiation), + Oort differential rotation - meaning that objects have greater angular speed if they are closer to galactic center Also Kepler: object that are near center rotate faster than object further from the center).

We know the objects which are nearer the center = greater red shift.

Yeah, no offense but this is complete crap. We have no way of getting a better angle on this, and most of the 'conclusions' about the milkyway were made before gravitational lensing was discovered.

The truth is we have bugger all idea what the galaxy we are in actually looks like and just because parts of it are red shifted does not mean its a disc, it just means either those parts are moving away from us or we are moving away from them or the gravitational lens between us and them is increasing in pull.

In fact, we know so little about any of this that it surprises me you all consider what you state to be absolute fact.

Again we don't even understand why magnetism works and yet you think you understand why molten poles flip? Dream on.

The fact that we (our solar system) appear to be in the influence of an external magnetic field that is not what we assume is that of the Milky Way’s should not be dismissed lightly. It is an astounding discovery and at least deserves a proper rethink of our observed orientation.

If you can’t even give the discovery that much credit then what’s the point of discovering anything? If you believe you already know it all, go forth and unlock the mysteries of the universe from your easy chair. (good luck.)

This image gives a idea of what may be going on in the larger scheme of things as opposed to thinking that Sagattarius Dwarf Galaxy is only on the other side of the Milky Way, which is true as you can see in the picture, but the entire tail known as the Sagittarius Tidal Stream wraps right around us...the evidence is still being gathered. Remember that it is about 88,000 light years away, there is still one closer, Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy about only 42,000 light years away.



Is our Milky Way Galaxy out to lunch? Recent wide field images and analyses now indicate that our home galaxy is actually still in the process of devouring its closest satellite neighbor. This unfortunate neighbor, the Sagittarius Dwarf galaxy, is now seen to be part of a larger Sagittarius Tidal Stream, a loose filament of stars, gas, and possibly dark matter that entangles the Milky Way. An artist's depiction of the stream is shown above. Speculation also holds that the Sagittarius Dwarf was once pulled through the Milky Way disk very close to our Sun's current location. An important resulting realization is that galaxies contain a jumble of clumps and filaments of both dim and dark matter.

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov...

[edit on 18-6-2007 by junglelord]

But we are in the process of a galactic encounter with an even closer galaxy, Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, only 42,000 light years away. We are more in the process of consuming this galaxy then Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy.




What is the closest galaxy to the Milky Way? The new answer to this old question is the Canis Major dwarf galaxy. For many years astronomers thought the Large Magellan Cloud (LMC) was closest, but its title was supplanted in 1994 by the Sagittarius dwarf galaxy. Recent measurements indicate that the Canis Major dwarf is only 42,000 light years from the Galactic center, about three quarters of the distance to the Sagittarius dwarf and a quarter of the distance to the LMC. The discovery was made in data from the 2MASS-sky survey, where infrared light allows a better view through our optically opaque Galactic plane. The labeled illustration above shows the location of the newly discovered Canis Major dwarf and its associated tidal stream of material in relation to our Milky Way Galaxy. The Canis Major dwarf and other satellite galaxies are slowly being gravitationally ripped apart as they travel around and through our Galaxy.

[edit on 18-6-2007 by junglelord]