A Modest Proposal

Tezzajw, point accepted. I do have to tell you however my kids cracked up at your avatar!

Originally posted by antar
I am not asking you to change your views, I happen to respect your thoughts yet think you could be a bit more understanding of people that have had sightings and do not believe that they are of military origins.

I think you may have me confused with someone else. I don't believe I have ever expressed a sentiment even close to that. Is there another poster who might have a similar avatar that has those views? I haven't seen him, but that's not saying he's not out there somewhere. Is there an imposter out there?

Forgive me if I have assumed incorrectly you proposing an end to the unsubstantiated threads by unqualified individuals that base their information on what information is available.

I simply would like people to have the opportunity of becoming more knowledgeable about the field. I'm not setting myself up as any kind of expert. I hope WE can collaborate together to come up with a 'plan' as I've sketched out above. This is not a conspirational plot to ban certain people who believe certain ways. (Of course, why am I surprised? This is ATS)

I'll be willing to bring it to the attention of the Three Amigos if some sort of team can be formed and if some sort of rules can be established. Alternatively, you could start a special thread here for just that kind of purpose.

Originally posted by antar
Tezzajw, point accepted. I do have to tell you however my kids cracked up at your avatar!

Yeah, it's an Eversor Assassin from Warhammer 40K. A genetically modified, one-man killing machine. Very lethal in combat. When not in combat, it is stored in a cryogenic state so that the toxins and chemicals in its system don't cause a rapid decline in its metabolism. It's only constructed to wage war! Painted by my wife!

Sorry for the off-topic description.

Couple of things here...I agree with the OP's 'Modest Proposal', as I too. am trying to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Personally, I'm looking for the "Unified Weirdness Theory"...the state of being that explains UFOs and ghosts and esp and telekinesis and so on and so on. I figure that it all ties in somewhere, but all we ever get is disjointed parts of the picture. If you were to say, "well we live in a multidimentional set of universes and all of this stuff is all of that stuff intersecting with you...here's proof.", then I'd say thanks...that's a load off my mind.

Given that I don't see my hopes played out anytime soon, schuyler's plan seems quite sensible. Tough to achieve either review or consensus, though, because like the man said "Out here on the perimeter there are no stars." I'm in...keep me posted.

Secondly, observe50? I'll read yer stuff.

So you should see how it goes with this subject.

What I wrote was basically ignored by all but one who only managed to try and make an issue that I probably owned a business which dealt with selling plants and tress.

Do you even begin to see what I am trying to get through to all of you. People don't really care they are two involved with themselves, there own agenda's.

I have little hope and understand why this soul was sent here, unfortunately if you don't change you will all be dead in a few decades I won't even be able to tell you I told ya so.

Please..... think, use logic and common sense.... plant trees-- bring forth peace and help one that needs help.

Tezzajw, Heheheheh, kids are at the Cardinals game right now Ill tell em when they get back...heheheh

Originally posted by tezzajw

Take a look at him, he's a shrivelled, old man! How can he be intelligent! As if that face could intimidate!

That was before my morning coffee. It's the blue sparkie taser thingies that come out of my fingertips that are a bitch. Looks cool, but kind of stings if one hits you. Yes, it would be a lot of work.

Originally posted by observe50
Amazing, all I can say is amazing. One time someone here wrote that if the real deal was here you wouldn't have the sense to even know it.

I don't understand this post and I don't understand your second post either. I don't have any idea what you're amazed about. You apparently have some issue. You apparently have direct contact with the Greys, but that's about all I've got from two posts. Plant trees. Okay. Cool. I will.

However, I most humbly request that you please STAY ON TOPIC!

Thank you. Bye.

I have been considering backing something along the lines of this for some time. Start a group that can get me a list of required reading and we'll go from there based on interest.

By the way, we already have a "Wiki", www.tinwiki.org that is growing at a decent rate but surely could use some additional fantastic articles on the subject.

Springer...

I would consider myself an expert in the field of UFOlogy now. Some of this information stagnation is really behind S.E.T.I. The fact is, they dont want the truth to be released. They call themselves experts based on what? Try summiting a solid documented paper on E.T. life beyond our planet. Base it on alien life that is further then a fungus in developement and you'll just get laughed at. We need a new system... 1. Not connected to Gov't 2. With people we (people) consider the top researchers in the field.

Some cool ideas.

Becker. More about me? Tell you what. I put a short bio in my profile, left side bottom, that gives my background. I feel kinda sheepish posting it here. I don’t want to bore anyone. I have a modest website here.

Access Denied: Great Link! Thank so much, and point taken. If you don’t know Phil Klass and Howard Menzel, you’re missing a lot, even if you love to hate them. I do think a well-rounded approach is necessary, including 100% skeptics. They are a part of this field, too.

Roadgravel: Not assuming any UFO stuff is true. I think you can learn a great deal about the field without even taking a stand on it. I don’t think Adamski is true, myself, but it’s interesting how his stuff still is the basis for lots of so-called “new” stuff today. I just read two of his books and found them fascinating.

Rocksolidbrain. & Ironman: I hear you on the charlatans. Dare I say it: That’s part of it. “Hidden truth – Forbidden Knowledge” probably ought to be on the list. If you haven’t read what he said, you can’t know how bad it really is, so to speak. I would think we’d have to approach this on as neutral a platform as we could. However, I think it is legit to also ask, “What are some of the negatives in the evidence provided by X?”

All: yeah, it might be some serious work. The more I think about it, the more I feel this way.

All: I absolutely agree that any such system needs to have a well-rounded approach that does not advocate one way of thinking about ufology over another. The idea would be to become more familiar with the field in all its variety rather than push some agenda. You don’t have to believe or disbelieve to become familiar with an author’s own point of view or become familiar with the details of a sighting or incident. After all, the whole idea is to Deny Ignorance!

Okay, I’m going to sleep on this and come back tomorrow with a way to come up with a list. Thanks for the interest.

Originally posted by schuyler
All: I absolutely agree that any such system needs to have a well-rounded approach that does not advocate one way of thinking about ufology over another. The idea would be to become more familiar with the field in all its variety rather than push some agenda. You don’t have to believe or disbelieve to become familiar with an author’s own point of view or become familiar with the details of a sighting or incident.

I see now you are suggesting familiarity with the literature not necessarily using it a "field guide". Even hoaxes, like some of the pics posted here, give people information useful for comparision.

Just in case is sounded different, I did not mean to imply all the literature is fiction or incorrect. I do agree the threads might improve if some people did more research. I think those that really care to know will anyway. I can be a bit skeptical at times becuase I am trying to maintain some balance in all of this. I keep an open mind to the subject and have since I was very young.

I do believe ATS already has such a facility - the "Subject Matter Expert".

If you consider yourself so overabundant in self-proclaimed subject knowledge, then why not just spend some points at the ATS Store and give yourself a Custom Title, something along the lines of "I have read lots of books and you haven't" and then you can finally rest easy at night.

Honestly, the thread smacks of arrogant narcissism. The sum of the ATS membership will judge those most deserving of such plaudits. Not oneself.

Riot Coming, I honestly don't think that what you see is in the making. If I understand correctly, the effort would be based more on the idea of defining the different perceptions and ideas that form the basis of the majority of the community regarding UFOs.

As I understand it, there would be room for both sides in this, thereby giving a balanced approach.

Anything less and I for one would withdraw my support. It would seem to be a worthwhile endeavor to sort out where the major names in ufology stand on issues, but not to proclaim any certain group correct.

We'll just have to wait and see how this unfolds.

Not so long ago, in a not so different time, a vaguely yet somewhat similar idea was presented. It was called the "Fair Skeptics". If you had access to the forum you could still go to the bottom of the forum list page, and find it sitting there. It started with wonderful ideals and some pretty cool ideas.

It then dwindled down to a less than mere shadow of its former self. All the folks who were all a twitter and in a rush to get it going suddenly found themselves in positions of indecisiveness and lacking in anonymous and institutional ego petting. There was probably some behind the scenes infighting, as well.

Alas ... It went the way of many good ideas born before their time. It survived all the negative criticism from the usual suspects (naysayers and other assorted Jealous Jims and Jealous Janes)... It avoided the usual shuffle for people,who couldn't pound sand in a virtual rat-hole wanting the top positions. It finally succumbed to whiners and wannabes who had no idea how to get a start up going without being the center of membership adoration.

I even attempted, at the last, to grab the reigns and bring the bumbling, ever so slightly mis-guided, horse-drawn sleigh to some sort of goal-oriented path. Too bad ... And at the very slight risk of sounding like a whiney baby, myself, some of the people who managed to derail it are still hanging around being self important legends in their own minds (None of the Three Amigos, who went, more than, out of their way to make it work ... Thanks and finally a chance to offer some public praise).

I wish you all much good luck, and would like very much to be involved in this if the opportunity should arise. You see, regardless of my skeptic front, I have read George Adamski, in his urbanely, witty, entirety. I have read Hopkins (quite a bit), I have read many great, good, and not so great, nor so good books, ebooks, and websites about the UFO issue.

I would seriously love to be contributing something in a positive way, even if it is a "skeptical" way.

I hear the bugles blowing, and once again, am ready to mount up and charge. The stinging ignominious fate of of the Fair Skeptics, while not forgotten, is diminished in memory, if not enirely (obviously) forgotten.

I would advise that, even if I am not picked to be a part of this endeavor, you choose wisely as to who is picked. Test the spirits and make a true effort to seperate the ego driven, "self-effacing", whiney baby types who will jump in with both feet, immediately, then leave you high and dry when the next "cutesy" thing catches their childish little fancies. Try for people who aren't afraid of hard, and thankless, anonymous work

Yeah... I know ... I'm really still bitter about it, and the sting of riding a dead horse into the ground isn't really quite forgotten. This type of thing should have and could have been off the ground a very long time ago here, except for the above mentioned wheenie babies.

One interesting thing did come out of it all, however. One of the early deserters (of necessity so it seemed) wanted me to run as his Vice-President for the upcoming elections. Unfortunately, I felt like I would start as the VP hopeful, and if elected, would suddenly end up as Prez due to the large abandonment factor of the "FAIR SKEPTICS". And so, politely, yet resolutely, declined the "kind" offer.

Much luck to you all, and maybe this time, with Springer providing some support, it will get off the ground.

My best wishes to all involved!

Originally posted by RiotComing
I do believe ATS already has such a facility - the "Subject Matter Expert".

If you consider yourself so overabundant in self-proclaimed subject

Wrong entirely and on several points. I checked into the Subject Matter Expert program before posting to make sure this wouldn't circumvent that issue. First, you don't "spend points at the store" to gain that status. You apply. Second, it IS self-proclaimed. What I'm suggesting is that you PROVE it. If that's narcissism to you I'm afraid I never learned that definition.

It's an interesting idea...a UFOlogy quiz to denote a certain level of familiarity, but there are many logistic problems.

1. It's still subjective. Being aware of past UFO cases, authors, films, etc. is certainly helpful, but it doesn't really make that person's opinion any more or less valid than another's....

2. One could always use Google or any other search to complete an online test.

3. It creates division...the "in the know" elite vs. the regular member.

For example, Subject Matter Expert designations aren't just arbitrarily given out. They are nominated by staff, voted on by the staff, and are based on the member's posts in the subject in question. In a way, the member's posts become the "application" or certification in the field. I can think of many other members who certainly qualify as an SME for UFO's. Surprisingly to some, there are probably more skeptics in this list than those I generally agree with.

At least here on ATS...credibility is a cummulative effect of a member's past posts...and personally, that qualifies far better than any other measure I can think of.

Sure, it's helpful to know that Adamski published a self-admitted fictional book a couple of years before his identical claims of actual contact with Venusians...and sure it's helpful to be familiar with ad hominem, slippery slope, and other logical fallacies, but it isn't necessary for a valid opinion.

First, you don't "spend points at the store" to gain that status. You apply.

Never applied, was nominated back when these were first envisioned. I believe we even went back and forth on whether or not staff should qualify (I was on the "no" side of that), but eh....

[edit on 4-6-2007 by Gazrok]

I was thinking at first that this project could be done under the auspices of the Scholar program, but, partially in deference to antar’s concern (I’m in love with her avatar, but I still think she’s done me wrong!), we could make this very inclusive of everyone to avoid any elitist tinge. Also, there should be as few restrictions as possible to allow wide participation. Third, the entire program would be based on the ATS principal of “We have no opinion.” The idea is to “learn about X.” Judgment is a separate issue.

Step One: Compile
Anyone who wants to nominate a list of the top books in the UFO field ever. Either post the list here or send me a U2U with the list. I was thinking maybe the top 25, but why be limiting. If you’ve got a list of the top 5, okay, or even THE best UFO book. Fine. I will take the responsibility for compiling these lists into a single list that is as long as it needs to be to accommodate all your nominations. I will also provide a ranking list showing the most often nominated books in that order as well. As we get further along we may feel the need to cull the list to a reasonable number, and the rankings will help accomplish that. But for now, any book nominated gets on the list. I will also start a thread that is more explicit “Nominate the best UFO books of all time” so that others who may not be following this thread can be directed here to see what we’re up to, or even list their books there if they prefer. (I will not do that prior to feedback, however) This will provide for a fully equalitarian and democratic approach where anyone who has the inclination may participate. Schuyler’s responsibility: Compile the list and spit it back.

Step Two: Solicit Readers
The work starts. Once the list is in place, we need to solicit readers for each book. This is based on interest and availability. Read what you want. Read what you have. Check it out at the local public library. Buy it if you want and can. Once again, this is pretty egalitarian, but you have to do some work. As you read through the book pick 25 of the most important points in the material and formulate questions and answers from them. Send those in along with a review of the book. Amazon style should be quite adequate for the review. Schuyler’s responsibility: I will keep records of who is doing what and compile the Q&As and reviews (if you want me to)

Step Three: Peer Review & Beta Test
Someone’s got to check your work. We send your Q&A to a second person who has read the book, soliciting for help and interest. Person #2 comments on the Q&As. He or she may have read the book and know it well, or want to read the book and take the test. Either way would work. This serves to ensure quality of results and serves to beta test the questions at the same time. In the case of ‘issues’ we put #1 and #2 together for a collaborative little chit chat for resolution and hope! This works well. Schuyler’s responsibility: Coordinate this effort. Don’t screw up the records.

Step Four: Host the Test
There are survey and test sites out there where you can post the test. Some are totally free. The idea would be to type the tests onto one of these sites and post the URL’s. The answers are sent wherever you want them. I’ve seen this done, but have not done it myself. Schuyler’s responsibility: Go figure this out and find a site.

Step Five: Decide Scope & Award
Before we get too far into the logistics (so maybe this is not Step Five, but A step) we need to figure out how many books, how many tests (maybe some non-book related) it takes to earn a “credit,” (to use college terms) and how many credits it takes to earn some sort of recognition. I was thinking along the lines of the “Subject Matter Expert” badges some ATS’ers have. Maybe a rating system such as UFO Knowledge Rating: 25 (for 25 tests completed). Maybe ATS would be willing to award some points as an incentive. I think Springer has some ideas on this. This is far beyond me to deal with. Responsibility: Group and ATS with ATS as final say. (It’s their ballgame, after all.)

Step Six: Publicize and Implement
That’s when you ring the triangle and call for participation.

If you haven’t read “UFOs and the National Security State” by Richard Dolan, how can you pretend to wax eloquent about government secrecy? If you haven’t read “Intruders” and “Missing Time” by Budd Hopkins, how can you pretend to be familiar with modern abductee and contactee literature? You may recognize the name George Adamski, but do you know what he said and what he claimed?

Good points. imho.

I was wondering as I read your post . . . about teaming up with say the online Phoenix Univ or some such.

Then, it seemed to me--why farm it out or team up with anyone.

I think ATS could set up such a tier of courses online itself.

It might be fruitful etc. to team with say BLACKVAULT and maybe another site or 3 of the best sites on such topics . . .

But we have enough expertise here, imho. Certainly we could invite some famous names in the field to hold a class or two.

I sukppose partnering with an online univ that was already accredited would afford a more conventional/"genuine" degree. And that mighkt be of interest to more students.

On the other hand . . . seems to me we could AT LEAST team up with a community college somewhere for an Associates degree in UFOLOGY. I'd be willing to approach mine about it. We have an extensive set of online courses already.

I like the ideas. I would be interested in helping push the project forward. It's conceivable that my PhD in clinical psych and extensive reading in the field could be of some value.

Cheers.