So...Why do women want marriage?

Most females have "imagined" expectations. They have a mental picture in their heads of what is "perfect" and they think men should conform to their ideas of perfection or needs. Thats rubbish.

What about what men want? Women will never even imagine the possibility that men were people before they met them and want to remain the same afterwards too. They will never think how they can adapt themselves to suit the man better and be happy in the process as well. Instead they will set out to mold the man around their vision of "perfect" and somewhere along the line the man decides he doesnt want like the pressure to constantly adapt and will exit the relationship. Instead of being a merger, most women make marriage a takeover, a hostile one at that. While the man conforms to avoid confrontation and keep the status quo the woman readies to restructure him into servicing her requirements. Women are better at emotional powerplay and make use of this advantage to arm twist the man into conforming or yielding to their position.

I believe that a man should like himself first and foremost above all else otherwise the woman will impose her "utopia" vision upon him and force him to conform to that. Most people say that men do not understand women and thus the great tensions in marriages. I will submit that it is women who make a lesser attempt at understanding the male psyche. Those few who do, only use it in attempts at exploitation rather than furthering their relationships.

I've heard of women who do that but it was not what I did. If that has been your personal experience, then no wonder marriage sounds more like a death sentence than a life journey.

Both the man and the woman had lives before they got married but living with someone else (married or not) requires compromise on the part of both to be able to adjust to the "togetherness".

When a man is single he may leave his dirty clothes lying all over the place, leave the toilet seat lid up, spend his entire paycheck on beer and dog races, take health risks with questionable sex partners, etc. but why would he want to be married if he wants to continue that life style? When a woman is single she may leave her pantyhose drying on the back of the kitchen chair, eat entire tubs of ice cream for comfort, shop til she drops on every day off, etc. but why would she want to be married if she wants to continue that life style?

He may prefer the window open at night for fresh air while she wants an electric blanket turned up to the "toast" setting. If he wants to spend all his free time with his buddies then he doesn't want to make a life with a woman. If she wants to spend all her free time at tupperware parties and such then she's not interested in making a life with a man.

Compromise.

Married, IMHO, is about relinquishing the life you had as a single person and making a new life with your partner. One person should not be expected to give up everything they had in order to ensure that the other is able to keep their single lifestyle. Male or female.

Why I think women don't want marriage is because generally the woman gives up everything and the man makes few if any sacrifices for the relationship. And then they complain that you're "not the woman I married". At least that has been my observation and personal experience.

Whitewave,

I understand what you are getting at in the term you use ..maturity. I agree. Maturity is a desired trait. Unfortunately it is often consumption rates which take over. I dont agree with this high maintenance fingerprint ..male or female.

I too have little use for a woman or female I have to spend alot of time picking up after and still go to work and maintain such in addition to thier maintenance costs. I am not a womans moma. or daddy. I am big on getting those who are with me to pull thier heads out and not default on me at my expense.

At one time I rented out rooms in this house. YOu learn quickly about the maintenance habits of others ..including my own brother whom I eventually told to move out. His maintenance costs were just too high while he was pit stopping with me as the pit crew. I dont put up with such nonsense from my own brother ...I certainly wont put up with it from a woman.

I am not big on passion per se. I think the template for this with which most people have ingrained is a counterfit. Life is hard work..even in our passions. Often we substitute artificial expectations for real value or what is valuable here. The template which I know is that often the light which burns twice as bright burns only half as long. While not absolute...this can be applied to alot of things.

LOL LOL..agree about the locker room stuff and womens thinking. It is the same with the men I know. Give them a little sex and sports and they are good for another 100,000 miles. Astonishing how little thinking is going on here.
I too require that a woman acknowlege my life is as valuable as is hers. Nor that I am disposable and expendable. Nor do I think that the natural position of the toilet seat is down. NOr that my value system and thinking are adjustable and amendable for hers. Children or no children. Anyone think that after a woman uses the toilet in a relationship she ought to raise the toilet seat for others. It is not a quantum amount of labor to do this..why is the default setting..seat down?? No one seems wont to bring up this simple point. Would this require to much commitment?? How about thinking??

I will make a point on this concerning IAF 101s post on this angle.

ON the subject of children..I am not saying that a woman put the children behind her man...but dont forget her man. This is so often the fingerprint among so many marriages. I dont have much respect for a woman who does not put her children first. This is happening all to often with the caliber of women coming up today. I am saying dont forget to put her man first too. This too happens all to often today too.

It is also a sad state of affairs when a man has to make his point clear. It is an even sadder state when you finally figure out that most men can't even make the point ..much less make it clear.

Conversely ..why would most women today even be intrested in a mans point of view when the home they are in is considered theirs by default...socially..within the social structure. Remember that 7 to 1 buisness in the stores with goods and services directed to women??
It is by default in this social structure that it is a woman or female who determines market direction..not the males. This carrys over into every angle of marketing...every angle.
It is not who earns the moneys..but who has discretionary control over how the money are spent. Women understand this...most men are way to dumb to get it. The merchandizers are not ignorant to this concept. They are not about to clue the men into this logic and reason.

Once I understood this for the scam it is ..I never again bought into this drivel about a Partriarchial society. What we have here in America is a Martriarchial society masquerading as a Patriarchial society so as to play through by default.

Another point I want to make..here. Some time back in another room you posted about the men lacking in manners or caliber/ability as were their fathers, grandfathers or great grandfathers. I agree with your point here. I think this trend is waxing worse and worse. I attribute much of this to the lack of a man in their lives. Instead rampant consumerism and consumer values being substituted instead.
Many of todays women are not intrested in this nor laying the groundwork for this to take place..but are themselves intrested primarily in consumerism. They dont want to think about how things get here or are made...the risk involved....but just that they get here. They raise kids on just such a doctrine of instant gratification. The sad thing is that these kids grow to be adults and still think that instant gratification is the normal course of events out here. Astonishing!!

IF you look at alot of what passes for men out here and the lack of male figures in thier lives..who or what is the dominant influence in their lives if not their mothers?? Must be peer groups and the boob tube!!

Now that I have those points out of the way....here is important nation building moral high ground stuff!!

Concerning the toilet seat...most men are horrible shots or horrible at aiming. I detest cleaning up after them too. However ..to be fair...alot of women are not the neatest thing in their habits. I dont like picking up after them either. If man cannot aim worth a darn..he needs to make accomidations so as not to leave pee pee tracks all over the place. What a bunch of wimps!! Enough said??

Also ..the premise here is why women want marriage..not dont want marriage. Though I understand your points and concerns. I just dont happen to agree with all of them.

IAF101,

Your point about women haveing a concept of what is "perfect" and men conforming to this concept is what has bothered me for some time now. Some conformity is ok. But often with me it is not. Particularly within the concept or limits I posted to Whitewave.

Give you an example. Some years back while seeing another woman her pattern was often to get me to take up her concerns..her expectations...her honeydoos. If I was round her she would often try to task me with jobs to be done or repaired..etc etc. What never happened with her was that she did not ask me what my plans were for the day. She just began the process she thought was natural..to put me to work if I was around. To replaced my needs or thoughts with her requirements. Including lets go out to eat...and take the kids. Translate that ...I pay. She had a job!!
One day when I stopped by for a visit..I knew she was going to begin her honeydoo fingerprint and or lets go out to eat. I went out to her shed and took out some paint I knew was in there and began painting her shed. The honeydoo list stopped and we did not go out to eat. Instead she fixed some sandwichs and iced tea while I painted.

The lesson here is that as long as I was doing something that benefitted her and her kids..all was well. Translate that further ...this is the natural role or default setting for a man. Now are all women like this..no they are not ..but it happens more than most men are wont to tell.
This relationship did not last long. I did not bother explaining it to her as she was not receptive to the idea at all. This was commitment phobia on her part. She was not mature enough to understand beyond the settings on her dial.

THe other lesson out here is that there is a caliber of woman for whom you want them to think you are the dumbest most uncoordinated non mechanical idiot around. All you can do is make love and play video games and watch sports and drink beer. This is as far as you want them to know. Mechanically and electrically..you want them to think you are a train wreck.

If a woman wants to keep me coming around she needs more than the ability to cook...sex and beauty. Ive been up this trail before. It is often so overated to me. Lots of women out here can fill this niche. Cooking has become a lost art in the days and times of prepared microwave foods and the fast food lane. Not that I dont appreciate a good meal prepared by a woman who cares. It is just that it is not the asset it once was..unless combined with other real intrinsic values.

But this thread is about why a woman would want to get married and my tack is what are they offering for marriage..what value. I have yet to get a specific answer for this question. These things are so often implicit in these posts..not explicit. Whitewave is one of the few who will in fact offer specifics....explicitness.

Orangetom

Why, thank you, OT. And let me just jump in and offer explicits after I say this: You don't agree with me? I'm shocked!

Why I think women want marriage:
1) Security. They want to know that they don't have to be personally responsible for their own financial well-being, their own toilet stopping up, their own lawn needing mowed, their own car being fixed (or paid for).

2) Companionship. Women are highly verbal creatures and we need someone to talk to. Not necessarily someone to talk WITH but someone to talk to. Men are not as verbal so when we are talking we just assume they're listening. AHAHAHAHAHA

3) Dependability. Women want to know that they don't have to go through the weeding out process in picking a sex partner. (Men do too, for that matter). We want to know that SOMEONE is coming home at the end of the day that we can talk to and who knows how to unstop the toilet. We want to know that x amount of money will consistently be deposited into bank account to cover expenses.

4) Love. Women like to feel special and adored. I don't think there are too many women who are so self-deluded as to believe that every male on the planet is enamored of them but they may be able to delude themselves that at least one guy thinks they're special.

I realize that my cynicism may be showing so let me temper the previous bile by saying: marriage SHOULD include dependability, companionship, security and love. I just think that a lot of women (and men) delude themselves regarding what actually constitutes those admirable traits.

And now for the final word on the toilet seat to all you guys: No one wants to see what may be lingering on the inside of the bowl so please put the lid down for the sake of aestheticism. Also, if you've never stumbled out of bed at three in the morning to empty your bladder and fallen in a bowl of cold, wet toilet bowl; well, let me just say that it's a rude and extremely unpleasant awakening. And for all the ladies who chronically complain about it: put on your big girl panties and deal with it. It's just not that big an issue to make a source of contention with your partner.

Women process information about potential mates differently than men do. Men just LOOK and if the female looks ok, then "good enough". (Although I think some men are starting to snap out of this biological reflex). Women can not usually tell just by looking if the male will be a good provider, caring to her and her offspring, etc. so she must process non-verbal clues constantly. This may have worked well for our ancestors but the tendency to process actions to determine character and future actions may be a little "overshoot" now. In other words, hubby comes home 10 minutes late and we have to process all sorts of info to determine if his worthiness as a mate has been misplaced. If hubby has been out catting around and brings home a disease, the stability of the family unit is at stake as well as the future of the offspring. Weighty matters indeed. Knowing he may have just gotten caught in traffic, we have to weigh how much of a big deal we're going to make over this potentially weighty matter. I could give endless examples but you get the idea.

A man just needs to look to see if a woman is a suitable vessel for his offspring. Much simpler for them. Long luscious hair? Since hair grows slowly, any chronic illnesses will manifest in "straw" looking hair. Long luscious hair shows a female that has been healthy a long time-not prone to disease=suitable vessel. Perky boobs? Youth alone holds up those puppies (and plastic surgery) and youth equates to health and fertility. Women have few visual clues to determine a man's genetic suitabilty. Strong cheekbones and chin are one determinant. It takes a lot of testosterone to make such a bone structure and since testosterone weakens the immune system, only a male with a very strong immune system can reach adulthood with that bone stucture. (Current day antibiotics negate that ancestral clue). Men need srong healthy vessels to bear their offspring and women need virtuous characters to help them raise those offspring. Strong and healthy stands out like a beacon whereas virtuous characters are a little harder to determine so women have devised endless "tests". Buying expensive, frivolous rocks shows a man who is willing to expend his time and energy to provide for a woman and her offspring. There's a million of 'em, guys, but I'll stop here. Looking forward to everyone's response to THIS one. HEHEHE.

As far as your other question, OT, about what women will bring into a marriage: unless this is a proposal, I can't really say what women in general will bring. Every woman brings her own gifts and her own baggage/expectations/strengths/limitations, etc. Same as men.

I think the number one thing that women NEED to bring to a marriage is respect. Without respect, no matter how virtuous the man, he's not highly motivated to remain the wonderful man you chose to spend the rest of your life with or be an example to your offspring. With respect, you can quickly weigh that 10 minute tardiness arriving home and come to a safe conclusion. With respect, you can see the toilet seat lid up (occasionally) and realize they didn't do it to piss you off or because they don't care about your discomfort or safety from falling in at 3 in the morning. Love may "cover a multitude of faults" but I think respect covers all the rest.

reply to post by whitewave


Not to get too personal, but you sound like a single man. A bitter one.

You also make a lot of assumptions.

Women are from Venus. Men are from . . . Uranus?
As stellar as my SAT and GRE math scores were, my verbal scores surpassed them! So, very very few women are more "verbal" than I am. Although I am mostly nominative, not verbal. Unless I were subjunctive, which is probably never the case . . . . [/mock]

"Security."
Frau Dr. makes more than I do. Has for the past four years.


Household chores. You are assuming that:

a) all men are "good with their hands."

b) People will stay in a relationship because it comes with a maid or butler. If that were true, no one would ever check out of a four star hotel.


The bottom line is that you assume that people stay in marriage because of what the expect to get out of the relationship. And I'm telling you, the people / couples that think that way are doomed. Successfull marrieds know the eternal truth:

When it comes to building a family, you will always put more into it than you will ever get out of it. If you cannot deal with this fact, then you shouldn't even try marriage.



all the best.

Dr. S., you've got me smiling here. Thanks for that.
I make a lot of generalizations in my posts on the boards. Sorry about that. Still, generalizations do have validity.
Generally speaking, most men make more money than most women. I make more money than a lot of men I know so I realize that it is a generalization to say that women marry for money but generally a woman does not marry a man who makes less money than she does whereas a man is more willing to marry a woman who makes less than he does.
Again, generally speaking, most males are raised to learn certain handyman skills whereas most females are not. How many female plumbers, electricians, car mechanics do you have listed in your phone book?
For the record, I am a single, bitter FEMALE.:w:
Adding you to my friends list. I've heard some of your opinions on these topics before and I highly respect your views. *Tips hat to frau dr.*

Originally posted by whitewave
Dr. S., you've got me smiling here. Thanks for that.
I make a lot of generalizations in my posts on the boards. Sorry about that. Still, generalizations do have validity.

Evidently, MINE don't:

For the record, I am a single, bitter FEMALE.

Frau Dr. doesn't read here much. If she did, it'd be the end of "independent doctor s." But I'll show her your posts.

all the best.

.

Whitewave,

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!

It has been awhile since I have seen you so wound up. I like it!!! Your tough!!!

Security, companionship, dependability, love....I'm shocked Whitewave!!
I never would have thought of that!!
I do agree with you that many of us delude ourselves at to what constitute these traits.

However............................................!!!!!!

I'm going to get the last word on the toilet seat here!!!! I deserve it the other guys dont!! The makeovers too!!!

We are not talking about an outhouse here on the path out back. People should know how to flush after natures buisness. Also how to clean this complex high tech instrument.
Also I am never that gone to the world that I dont know what position the seat is in. I also dont take it for granted...even when I do get up in the middle of the night. Actually ..in the middle of the night I am usually awake like now. It is automatic with me. However..mostly in the middle of the night I am at work.

And that is "MY" final word....well almost.....

Hows my bile doin darlin????

Buying expensive, frivolous rocks shows a man who is willing to expend his time and energy to provide for a woman and her offspring.

What is this dreck I just quoted??? I am sure, as an explicit woman, you meant to say ..."their" offspring verses using such a default setting where the man is implicit. This has to be a typo on your part. Has to be!!

A smart, intelligent, thinking, loving, caring woman uses another technique to learn the capabilitys of a man in whom she is intrested..not such high maintenance methods. Todays divorce rates pretty much shoot this nonsense through the basement. This would make me wonder how frivolous she will be with "their" time energy and moneys earned ..also the risks involved.

As far as your other question, OT, about what women will bring into a marriage: unless this is a proposal, I can't really say what women in general will bring.

WOW!!!! LOL LOL LOL Your letting me down here Whitewave. To implicit.

I do think respect is a asset to bring to a man..yes. I use the term Peace...from her labors. Included in this Peace is her view of secuirty for him..from her labors...companionship, dependability, love. Respect is an asset which holds alot of this together in the mix. While this may be expensive on her part....it is not frivolous.

LOL LOL LOL...I cant seem to get as wound up as are you Whitewave. To tired. Not enough bile left in me today. Been in a class all day. Backside and head are worn out. Time for a couple of glasses of wine and off to bed. Lots to do tomorrow.

As always Doc Strangecraft makes some good and well spoken points. I always enjoy reading his posts.

Nite to all here,
Orangetom