Bible is a recent hack job mystery solved

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by I am Legend
they arent revelations. they are facts. look em up. do a little research. for xtians and such, nothing hurts more than the truth.

They're revelations for Marduk, because he thinks that these old arguments "solve" some sort of "mystery"... Same old material, and it's still not changing the course of any rivers.

And, in case you're assuming that I'm an "xtian," I'm not. If anything, I'm what Charles Fort described as an "intermediatist" — one who simply accepts that all accepted fact is in transition to falsehood, and that all falsehood is in transition to accepted fact.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/31/2007 by Doc Velocity]

aside from the fact that what you just said makes ZERO sense at all the only thing i can say to you is that in fact this stuff is changing a lot of peoples minds about what they thought was "the truth". it doesnt happen overnight, but it is happening. some people just prefer to put their fingers in their ears and cry loudly to avoid reality.

Originally posted by I am Legend

for xtians and such, nothing hurts more than the truth.

I'm not upset. Marduk has said much worse than this, many many times, on various topics, some related and some not related to the bible. This is actually a cake walk by comparison. He's being tame. If he was going to hurt my feelings as a christian, it woulda been any one of several times he referred to me in derogatory terms because I disagree with him. In debate societies, I believe that's called "ad hominem".

Originally posted by Marduk

Originally posted by mcktj

Is it possible that Sanskrit could have been known to Hebrews and is there any connection between these cultures at all which would account for the similiarites in the stories?
If you could help me out here, it would be great

Hi

Not just possible, but true! If you look up Sumeria and the hebrews as a search on your favourite engine, you will find that they are decended from there.

sorry thats complete rubbish
not only do all three groups speak completely unrelated languages

Why Rubbish? Take into consideration that all of the groups could have very well started from the same place. That is why they would have similar creation and flood stories. Then the Hewbrews have the story of the Tower of Bable. I don't know if the others would have the same story or not. That would explain why and how these cultures could very well have similar stories, but written in their own language and culture.

Even if you feel the Tower of Bable is not true. That does not mean Sumeria wasen't the start of civilization. That groups of people later on split from that civilization to create their own civilizations. After time they developed their own language, and the stories that were told orally, were finally written down. The oral stories would have changed over time where people added their own culture to it.

Unfortunatly it doesn't take long for people to forget what actually happened in the past, especially if they didn't live through it themselves. It wasen't that long ago WWII happened. Now there are people claiming that the holocost didn't happen. In another 500 or 1000 years, what will people actually remember? What history will actually be written down and not be destroyed either on purpose, just by natural erosion of time, or deleted away off the internet sites. What will people tell the future generations? What will the government allow in the text books?

Will anyone even remember the holocaust happened? Will there be a mystery as to whether the holocaust even happened? Or will the holocaust get played down as if it hardly effected anyone? Or will it get blow up and way out of porportion with people beliving that a major nuclear war happened with several atomic bombs blowing up all over the globe? The holocaust was the just the after effect that the governments had to deal with, and poor innocent people had to endure these camps for their own protection, or otherwise humanity would have been lost forever?

Otherwise, if people retained their own history so well, then why can't today's Egyptians read the hyrogliphs? Why are parts of history lost to us. Ancient history seems to be lost in the stories. The stories provide peices to a puzzle, and the better preserved the stories were, the more crediance we should give them. I know the Hebrews maticilously recorded the Torah word for word and letter for letter. It had to be on the exact same spot in the new book that was being written as it was in the old book. At least that is what I learned when reading about the ancient Hebrews. The others could have done similar things to perserve what they considered history.

Even for those who do not believe the Bible is true, there has to be some underlying facts to God vs Satan, the Adam and Eve story as well as the flood story, since other cultures have similar stories but told in their own ways.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
These aren't "facts", what, did the researcher use a time machine or something and watch the dudes write the bible? What utter tripe.

That's the whole point of this conversation, isn't it?

The facts are that there aren't any facts.

I think it's utter beauty.

Since we're too lazy to do "html" quotes.

"Even if you can, it doesn't change the fact that a lot of marriages in ancient times were cold business transactions."

I don't remember diss agreeing with you here. There's a lot of facts about a lot of facts and the fact is that all of them are true and false, thus they aren't facts at all untill believed to be so, and that belief is a matter of perception and personal conviction

[edit on 31-3-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

Nonreligicism is a nonstarter and I'll tell you why. Ever wonder why Europe is having a population crash? Easy, the typically selfish nonreligious are choosing to not have children. You're probably thinking "oh, but having children is a choice!!". True, but it is a selfish choice because it does not consider the future needs of the community in that cultures that do not grow are overrun by cultures that do.

And I have numbers to back up my argument that nonreligicism will be outpaced by the growth of religions.

"A purely demographic scenario, where everyone stays in the religion that they are in right now, would yield 32 percent Christians, 26 percent Muslims and 9 percent nonreligious. If we adjust for expected conversions, then we see 39 percent Christians, 27 percent Muslims and 11 percent nonreligious."

In other words, nonreligicism will shrink by more than half given the numbers I gave in a previous post (1.1 billion nonreligious out of a world population of 6 billion) in a purely demographic scenario and in a conversion scenario, will have Christianity growing at double the rate of nonreligicism.

pewforum.org...

[edit on 31-3-2007 by uberarcanist]

Atheist and communist societies have killed more people than religion?

YOU are joking right? You guys even kill members of your own religion... the inquisitions make the purges of stalin and the various chinese crackdowns seem like a minor blip...

Remember the conquistadors count towards your death toll too... and the sterilizations missions carried out, and THOUSANDS of other incidents of atrocities. ALL carried out in the name of someones god.

Nope, the deluded 700 club neoevangelist crap does not fly... Religion is expert at blaming it's victims for what they "made" them do...

Christianity is stockholm syndrome on a large scale, your religion has done horrible things in the past and most people secretly hate the strictures they live by and the transgressions by clergy and other so called members in good standing. But you identify with it.

Or to take another approach people that embrace christianity and islam and such are like victims of abuse... the more virulent and horrific things get the more adamantly they will defend their tormentors, until one day someone comes along that finally yanks them from the situation to a safe place and begins the process of deprogramming and renormallizing the psyche of the victim.

Any system that asks you to blindly follow it's strictures, especially one where the so called consequences of not following them cannot be truly proven, and further claims good works yet has a history soaked in blood is a CULT in my book. No matter how many people believe in it.

I find that the most virulent and truly demoralizing hatred and vitriol is spewed most vehemently from the mouths of the so called ferverently religious. It's a common theme in history.

And accusing people that aren't religious of having no morals because some communists and socialists took things too far would be like me telling you point blank you were a sadistic genocidal raping torturing sodomizing nazi sympathizing spawn of pure evil because of everything your religion has done.

But instead I just think the poor people that have been drawn in and most times indoctrinated since birth are victims of an evil self perpetuating cult.

But please feel free to decide who has morals or not afterall let he who is without sin cast the first stone ( a verse christians choose to acknowledge only when they feel like they are being attacked... because after all they can't be wrong GOD is on their side )

Originally posted by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal


That's the whole point of this conversation, isn't it?

No, it's a bait and switch scheme. Your facts aren't facts, but my facts are facts. Just watch Marduk, observe and learn the Duk.

Example:

Non-religious chap: You should not force people to believe what you believe!
Religious chap: I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm just defending what I believe.
Non-religious chap: Well you shouldn't force people to believe your defense!
Religious chap: I'm not forcing people to believe my defense.
Non-religious chap: Well you should believe the way I do!
Religious chap: I don't want to.
Non-religious chap: Well you're an idiot that caused all the problems in the world and the sooner you're not here the better!
Religious chap: Erm, wait a second. That's not quite right.
Non-religious chap: Yes it is!
Religious chap: No it's not!
(ad infinitum)

(this said with utmost sincerity and firm conviction on the part of both participants)

But could we talk about thread - about origins of Bible and copy/paste from other, much higher developed civilizations at that time? And the fact that OT and NT were compiled through history!

Everybody can belive whatever he desired - but believing does not constitute reality. We better look for some facts, and try some unbiased analysis of this subject.

Right and those wonderful religious people are doing their duty to god by having scores of children when earth is already staggering under the opressive weight of over population....

Non religious people have been choosing not to have more than 1 or 2 kids for the simple reason that the earth can't handle any more population not because they are selfish....

And while you may think a couple billion more indoctrinated from birth waiting to be unleashed clinical sociopaths in the name of preserving their GOD's will is a good thing. Me personally I weep for the future. Between overpopulation and fanaticism we are sure to make the most horrifying doomsday prophecies spring to vivid existence.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity...an "intermediatist" — one who simply observes that all accepted fact is in transition to falsehood, and that all falsehood is in transition to accepted fact.

"Everybody knows that ______ is true" is about to change.

I think LOVE is a Nihilist, but I am not certain (please forgive me for talking about you in your presence), but doesn't this share some elements of the same philosophy? I also subscribe to this definition, but I am not an atheist, and I don't think one has to be an atheist or a deist to understand or accept it.

As far as Marduk's theme, and this is after all his thread, he didn't twist any arms to get us here so we should respect his voice, gentleness and gracefulness come with age.

Originally posted by I am Legend
aside from the fact that what you just said makes ZERO sense at all...

It makes sense to anyone who has read Charles Fort. Perhaps you should try expanding the scope of your reading material.

Originally posted by I am Legend
...the only thing i can say to you is that in fact this stuff is changing a lot of peoples minds about what they thought was "the truth".

It's not changing the minds of theists. If theists' minds could be turned by something as innocuous as an atheist-endorsed historical timeline, then the theists never had any faith to begin with.

Get real, man. Do you understand what it would take to "deprogram" a truly faithful Christian? Well, for one thing, you can't deprogram the truly faithful. But do you understand that Christians are scripturally prepared for false messiahs and false prophets and false information about the Bible?

The Bible on False Prophets, et cetera...

I mean, if a gleaming white figure claiming to be Christ descended out of the sky today and started performing miracles, Christians have been instructed by the Bible to rebuke that glowing, miracle-performing sonofabitch. Because, it says, that's the Devil himself. When Christ returns, he's not going to be performing street magic and parlor tricks.

Now, if Christians are so staunch in their faith that they are prepared to reject a miracle-worker calling himself the Christ, how are atheists going to erode that faith with a few highly questionable facts and figures?

The answer is the same as it's always been — Atheists only "prove" their case to other atheists, not to the truly faithful.

— Doc Velocity

[edit on 3/31/2007 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by roguetechie
Right and those wonderful religious people are doing their duty to god by having scores of children when earth is already staggering under the opressive weight of over population....

Non religious people have been choosing not to have more than 1 or 2 kids for the simple reason that the earth can't handle any more population not because they are selfish....

And while you may think a couple billion more indoctrinated from birth waiting to be unleashed clinical sociopaths in the name of preserving their GOD's will is a good thing. Me personally I weep for the future. Between overpopulation and fanaticism we are sure to make the most horrifying doomsday prophecies spring to vivid existence.

Be careful what you wish for, as fantacism is not just a thing for the "religious" of the world. I'm sure you have lots of friends, acquaintances you enjoy and family members that are religious, who you would miss were they to become a thing of the past based solely on their outlook regarding the existence of a supernatural power/being/group, etc.

Sill athiestes and and those without faith, always trying to push their beliefs as more correct than any others's. Always trying to justify crushing the faiths of billions of people who live very happy, respectful lives and aiding others in the process. I respect your false beliefs and blasphemies, those are free will granted to you by God at work.

After all everyone does have the right to choose what they believe right? Otherwise it would not be freedom at all if faith was "illegal/banned" in the world.

Keep trying though, I am sure people with no faith or some false believers will gladly align themselves with the movement.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
In reality, Jesus did not walk on water.
He walked on a sandbank, that had an extremely low tide over it.

Please take no offense, but this reminded me of a joke where a boy was told that it was not possible that the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt could not have happened as stated in the Bible, and was given some scienctific explaination as the Jews could walk across because the tide was low. The boy said halluah even louder. The man asked the boy why, and the boy said it was even a bigger miracle that God could drown the army in such a little bit of water. I forget the joke exactly.

Taking things light in that aspect. I believe the little boy would now be saying praise the lord even louder, because it is more of a miracle that the boat would even be able to get to the center of the lake with so little water between the boat and the lake bottom. There couldn't have been that much water even with a feirce storm, otherwise Jesus would have fallen in the water due to the pressure of the waves hitting him.

The boat was in the middle or near the middle. The disciples could see Jesus through the mist and fog, so Jesus had to be near the middle of the lake also. Also, it was a good thing that Jesus was able to save Peter from what must have been underwater quick sand in time before he sank to his death. He only got to take two steps before starting to sink. Hmmm, I wonder if the fish were able to swim under the boat?

aside from the mountain of useless banter that comes from the fundie side of this, i would like for ONE person to actually disprove any point he made by citing some source other than " an inspiration from the almighty carrot head". people seem to have gotten angry over me using the word "fact".

did mesopotamia exist before Israel?

does cueniform precede cursive english as a writing style?

does not the story of Gigamesh precede the story of Noah?

it goes on endlessly. instead of becrying your right to believe in something, spend some time looking to see if what you believe is actually worthy of being believed at all, and not just tomfoolery and shenanigans.

for the xtians who are mad at the word "fact" i ask.............is it a fact that God gave his land to Issac and not Ishmael? if it is a fact, why does Islam exist?

view it as a type of food chain, with Islam at the bottom, then xtianity, then Judaism, and so forth all the way up to Aetheist on top. and thats a FACT. its a simple timeline in the end. the evolution of religion. simple.

Rogue, do you have any numbers to reinforce your assertion that massacres in the name of religion killed more than those done by atheist governments? I'll wager you don't, in fact I have numbers that demonstrate the converse is true:

en.wikipedia.org...

Here you will find that atheistic Communism killed roughly 100 million people in the 20th Century, a number that makes the just over 264,000 deaths that are directly attributable to Christianity over the course of several centuries seem pitifully small by comparison. And how many has Islam killed, might you ask?

Even if you add the "number that God's killed", it's nowhere near the total of 20th Century atheism.

dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com...

I can't find figures for Islam, I can't imagine that they'd be worse than the numbers for atheism, but even if Islam is worse, a ultraviolent theistic religion does not hurt the reputation of a relatively peaceful theistic religion (Christianity).

Originally posted by I am Legend
" an inspiration from the almighty carrot head".

Wearing carrot suit. Uh oh, hope there are not rabbits around!! Nibbles on a real carrot. Taps it lightly with pinky finger. Wats Up Doc? Zoom off in luney toon style.

Originally posted by DYepes
Sill athiestes and and those without faith, always trying to push their beliefs as more correct than any others's. Always trying to justify crushing the faiths of billions of people who live very happy, respectful lives and aiding others in the process. I respect your false beliefs and blasphemies, those are free will granted to you by God at work.

After all everyone does have the right to choose what they believe right? Otherwise it would not be freedom at all if faith was "illegal/banned" in the world.

Keep trying though, I am sure people with no faith or some false believers will gladly align themselves with the movement.

But - here is not question of 'believing' but about same historical facts about Bible and how it come to today form.

But with you religious folks it is pretty hard to speak about facts regarding anything about origin of your religion.

And why would you take this ;high' position , that your belief system is somehow superior - calling people when don't belive in childish stories atheist in a way that is something wrong with that position.....and you don't stop here - because all others who are also believers like you - you call 'false believers' - coz their little story is different than yours.

did mesopotamia exist before Israel?

no because they were all the same people. israeli people were from mesopotamia and migrated elsewhere. they didn't migrate to eden, they were from eden

Originally posted by undo

did mesopotamia exist before Israel?

no because they were all the same people. israeli people were from mesopotamia and migrated elsewhere. they didn't migrate to eden, they were from eden

so if the people of Israel migrated there from Mesopotamia, isint it impossible for the hebrews to come before the people they migrated away from?

or am i being a silly atheist?