Bible is a recent hack job mystery solved

this should really be useful for all those people who believe that the Bible is an original book dictated by God to Moses on Mt Sinai
the dates of all the various books have been discussed for quite some time and not one is as old as is claimed by any religious source

GENESIS Compiled from several oral traditions, Possibly by Ezra
J source 950 BCE
E source 750 BCE
P source 539
EXODUS J,E,P,D sources As above
LEVITICUS P source As above
NUMBERS J, E, P source As above
DEUTERONOMY D source 800 BCE?
JOSHUA Several 587 BCE
JUDGES Several + editor, some 8th and 9th Century BCE sources 6th Century BCE
RUTH Unknown as late as 3rd Cent BCE
1 SAMUEL Several + Editor Compiled around 560 BCE (some argue for 610)
2 SAMUEL As above As above
1 KINGS Unknown ca 560 BCE
2 KINGS As above As above
1 CHRONICLES Unknown ca 400 BCE
2 CHRONICLES Unknown early 4th century BCE
EZRA Ezra possibly early 4th century BCE
NEHEMIAH NEHEMIAH 4th century BCE
ESTHER Unknown 125 BCE
JOB Unknown 3rd-6th Century BCE
PSALMS Several before 586 BCE
PROVERBS Several 8th century BCE or later
ECCLESIATES Unknown 3rd Century BCE
SONG OF SOLOMON Unknown Unknown
ISAIAH (ch 1-39) Isaiah 6-7th Century BCE
(40-)
Others 200-300 years later
JEREMIAH Jeremiah 626-586 BCE
(26-)
Baruch ?
(46-51)
Others 626-586 BCE
(52:1-34)
Editor 626-586 BCE
LAMENTATIONS Jeremiah (?) 597 BCE
EZEKIEL Ezekiel + others after 597 BCE
DANIEL Unknown between 167-164 BCE
HOSEA Hosea 745 B.C.E
JOEL Joel 1st Half of 4th Century BCE
AMOS Amos 750 BCE
OBADIAH Obadiah after 586 BCE5th Century
JONAH Jonah (not the guy in the story) 5th Cen BCE
MICAH Micah et al 6th or Early 5th Cen BCE
NAHUM Nahum, et al Early 5th Century
HABAKKUK Habakkuk Early 5th Century
ZEPHANIAH Zephaniah 612-640 BCE
HAGGAI Haggai 520 BCE
ZECHARIAH Zechariah 518 BCE
MALACHI Unknown 450 BCE

www.davnet.org...

as you can see not one of the books are older than 1000bce

here you can see the development of just two of those stories that most people think are only biblical stories which in both cases have their origins in another culture and an earlier religion

Here is the King James Version of a certain passage from:-
Job 26:5-6
5Dead things are formed from under the waters, and the inhabitants thereof
6Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.

And here is the original version from the Hebrew bible

5 The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof.
6 The nether world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering.

There was a translation of this passage in 1922 by Dr James Moffat who was an advocate of the “Atlantis is real” theory like so many other scholars of his time
"The Titans tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering."
which in view of the Babylonian version which came to light later is completely untenable when you compare it to the Babylonian version which contains this passage which is so obviously the original

5. He sent a storm wind to the horizon;
To the breast of the earth it bore a blast
Into the depth of his ocean the disembodied spirit vanished
Unnumbered spirits he sent back to the under-world.
The................of the hag-demons he sent straight to the mountain.

So the book of Job is clearly based on the Babylonian version which dates from 1700bce which is 200 years before the claim of the writing lesson on mt sinai and the existence of Moses, which now seems to be a plot piece to avoid claims of plagiarism as in
"we didn't steal it God did"

and this extract compares the story of Noah with an extract taken from the epic of Gilgamesh whicxh predates the biblical version by 1500 years and the claimed existence of Moses by 1000 years

Gilgamesh: -
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

Genesis 7
8 And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth

Gilgamesh
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.

Genesis 7
7 And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth


Even the wording is unchanged, he sent forth a bird, then sent forth another bird, the only thing that is markedly different between these two stories is the ending where YHWH proclaims to Noah:-
“I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done”

The reason for this difference comes down to the timing of the individual stories creation. The first was written after Enlil had fallen from favour as the head of the mesopotamian pantheon. The world was now under the protection of Enki who had never sent a flood and had actively participated in lessening the effects of the first one whereas the Noah story was written at a time when early Judaism desperately needed something to believe in and wanted to keep that belief as a way forward.

In other words YHWH was a keeper and Enlil had already been discarded.

Funnily enough neither story mentions ducks. If there had really been an actual global deluge then by now ducks would be the dominant species on this planet. They’re just about the only creature that isn’t affected by rainfall and really isn’t bothered by how high the water rises. You couldn’t plan a global devastation intending to blot out man from the face of the earth and beast, and creeping thing, and fowl of the air without planning for ducks could you. Does this mean that God loves ducks more than mankind? Or are they creatures of Satan over which he has no control. Just why do ducks get such favourable treatment when it comes to global floods

probably because when someone puts together a tool of mass control they can't alway allow for people who know the truth coming forward and saying "hey wait a minute" you forgot something. they used to allow for that by calling those sorts of people Heretics and burning them alive. apparently there were 150,000,000 Heretics living in south america when the spanish bought Gods word to them. a few years later this ceased to be the case

there is no possibility of an oral history being the reasoning behind these similarities as the Hebrews did not exist at the time that either of these two texts were originally written who compiled it in their own book changing the names to suit their purpose, which at that time was simply to make it more valid to the audience reading it. this happens with all stories from religious texts to Cinderella
its not quite chinese whispers
its a deliberate changing os small details to make it more culturally relevant
to make it a more interesting story.
even hollywood does this. how many of you saw pearl harbour and watched a lone american pilot win first the battle of britain and then the air war in the pacific
that didn't actually happen that way you know.
but it didn't spoil the action did it


there are two strong possibilities for the dissemation of this knowledge to the Hebrews

the first is Ashurbanipal a king of Assyria
en.wikipedia.org...

During his rule, Assyrian splendour was not only visible in its military power, but also its culture and art. Ashurbanipal created "the first systematically collected library" at Nineveh, where he attempted to gather all cuneiform literature available by that time

Ashurbanipal had slaves who he used as Librarians. they were semitic hebrews. it was their job to translate ancient texts into Babylonian and Assyrian so that anyone could read them

the second is the Babylonian captivity
en.wikipedia.org...

The Babylonian captivity, or Babylonian exile, is the name generally given to the deportation and exile of the Jews of the ancient Kingdom of Judah to Babylon by Nebuchadnezzar

at this point it is believed by most biblical scholars that the bible was actually compiled. It was put together by a race who had been totally enslaved by another as a means to give them hope.
it worked well didn't it

theres a new book out which covers this in much more detail if anyones interested
www.virtualbookworm.com...

see this really gets to the heart of the subject of this forum
the origins of the bible which is a book written in the ancient world has really been a mystery because its been covered and hidden by the religions keeping its origins a secret so that they can retain power

but its origins lie in the ancient civilisations that are now mysteries to anyone who doesnt study them
so you can if you like folow what you were taught in church and continue to believe that God did it all
or you could look into it yourself a little with an open mind and find the truth, which is that our species is responsible for everything you see around you and everything that has ever been written
we are the gods
the truth does as they say set you free

and who knows
maybe you might find the truth about a few other mysteries along the way


[edit on 30-3-2007 by Marduk]

[edit on 30-3-2007 by Marduk]

I support putting forth arguments against religion, however the only people that need to learn things like this can't be convinced by it.

You really need to think like they do and approach the problem from two steps ahead of them.

If you do some research, you'll find that there are already "apologies" for all of your arguments. You need to arm yourself with that stuff first, before even think about trying an attack.

The title of your thread is also overly presumptuous. I don't think any mystery has been solved here. And I can't agree with the use of the word "recent" for events that happened BCE.

When will Shakespeare become a religion?

The bible is nothing but chinese whispers.

Stories and tales put down through generation until some people decided, hey lets make this scripture.

In reality, Jesus did not walk on water.
He walked on a sandbank, that had an extremely low tide over it.

Everything he did can be explained away through science.

The point of the bible is for you to find peace, and security in your beliefs.

some people cant handle the fact that when your locked a room, with no people around you.. you are on your own.
Where as some people can.

I do not mind if peopel are religous, Im prepared for them to tell me about their religion.

but when they force it on me, tell me im going to hell if i dont repent, or when people feel justified in killin in the name of their god.. well.
They need to be brought down a peg... or for some people I know.. a few hundered.

Marduk...excellent post. Its actually helped me quite a bit, as i am studying this right now.
I am a muslim (although i am finding it harder and harder to label myself as such)....i started out by rejecting the hadith (man made extras to the Quran)....then i started researching more and finding out that alot of the "miracles" of the Quran, were actually....not.
Then i started studying ancient religious texts (studying meaning...reading through them and being astounded by the similarities)

So i have a question for you, maybe you can help. The thing i have been pondering is this:
the stories being so similar, there had to be 2 explanations:
1: these events actually happened and were simply told by different cultures
2: they never happened and the stories were simply retold by different cultures.

So in the Hindu scriptures, there is the story of Atman and Jiva. And Jiva is eating fruit and momentarily forgets her Lord, and therefore is sent down to earth and has to live a mortal existence.
Now when i first read this, i immediately thought that Atman and Jiva, sound suspicially like Adam and Eve
But my question is this:
Is it possible that Sanskrit could have been known to Hebrews and is there any connection between these cultures at all which would account for the similiarites in the stories?
If you could help me out here, it would be great

posted by Columbus
If you do some research, you'll find that there are already "apologies" for all of your arguments

please provide a link that discusses your claim

Originally posted by Marduk

posted by Columbus
If you do some research, you'll find that there are already "apologies" for all of your arguments

please provide a link that discusses your claim

he never said the "apologies" for all of your arguments were good. some of them are tricky, some of them are hard to respond to, but they're all wrong in the end.

recent
One entry found for recent.


Main Entry: re·cent
Pronunciation: 'rE-s&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin recent-, recens; perhaps akin to Greek kainos new
1 a : having lately come into existence : NEW, FRESH b : of or relating to a time not long past
2 capitalized : HOLOCENE
- re·cent·ness noun

This is the link to Merrian-Webster definition to "recent".

What recent date were you thinking of when you came up with the title? You don't reveal the recent date. Maybe you forgot it?

Anyway, looking forward to this recent date info whenever you post it.

Uh..... Again? So your point is? As any historian worth their salt can clearly appoint. There is no validation to your claims here. The only reason I say this is because in reality it is never "consistently" claimed that it was all written in one place. Correct? I thought so? Oh well. Well, at least not that I see. If there is in fact more to your substantial claim that would be great to see. I am aware of your views, but want to see more than the obvious attributes that it is written by different people at different times. This is stated and obvious in the bible itself. Forgive me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here. Am I missing thepoint, or something more subtle?

I am RUDE and I'd like to apologize..........I'm just always searching for more info to see what substantiated this claim and what exactly the claim is. Forgive me.

[edit on 31-3-2007 by theutahbigfoothunter]

[edit on 31-3-2007 by theutahbigfoothunter]

posted by theutahbigfoothunter

The only reason I say this is because in reality it is never "consistently" claimed that it was all written in one place. Correct?

you need to speak to a few more people of faith
en.wikipedia.org...

The Pentateuch was traditionally believed to have been written down by Moses. Hence Genesis is sometimes called the first book of Moses, Exodus the second book of Moses, and so forth. In its current form, each successive book of the Pentateuch picks up and continues the story of the previous book to form a continuous story. Hence Genesis tells how the Israelites went to Egypt while Exodus tells how they came to leave Egypt. Exodus describes the building of the tabernacle at Sinai while in Leviticus Moses is given rules while at Sinai for offering sacrifice and worship at that tabernacle. In Numbers the Israelites leave Sinai and travel eventually to the plains of Moab, while in Deuteronomy Moses gives speeches about the law on the plains of Moab.

posted by ConstantlyWondering
What recent date were you thinking of when you came up with the title? You don't reveal the recent date. Maybe you forgot it?

so you only have a problem with the title of this thread
I gather that you have no sense of humour
let me help you out here
calling it "Bible is a recent hack job" is whats known as "Sarcasm"
please read this and get back to me if you need any more help ok ?
en.wikipedia.org...
I think if you read through the works of Oscar Wilde you might find he has this to say on the matter

" Sarcasm is proverbially described as “the lowest form of wit but the highest form of humor”

geddit ?

posted by madnessinmysoul
he never said the "apologies" for all of your arguments were good. some of them are hard to respond to, but they're all wrong in the end.

as a case in point I will tell you that the evidence of the Gilgamesh v Noah comparison has never had any "apology"
curses, damnings to hell and naming me a heretic yes
but a reasonable answer
not yet
if any of you guys who believe strongly that the middle eastern cult religion that you belong to has a reasonable answer for why you are worshipping a god who the mesopotamians abandoned more than 4000 years ago because he was a genocidal maniac and set a bad example to follow then now would be the time to mention it.
I haven't checked the details of this particular website but its interesting reading
its entitled

"WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"

www.truthbeknown.com...

George Santayana
Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

just so i am clear on this, as it has always confused me somewhat (although i am nowhere near well read on this stuff):

Yaweh is basically the reinterpretation of Enlil from mesopotamia? i THINK this is right but im not completely sure if i am reading things correctly.

YHWH, Jehova and Allah are reinterpretations of Enlil from Mesopotamia

all three religious books (Koran, Pentateuch, King James) start with a man and a woman placed in a garden by god, they move on from there to a flood sent to wash away mankind

in Islam
en.wikipedia.org...

The Qur'an tells of آدم (ʾĀdam) in the surah al-Baqara (2):30-39, al-A'raf (7):11-25, al-Hijr (15):26-44, al-Isra (17):61-65, Ta-Ha (20):115-124, and Sad (38):71-85.

in judaism
en.wikipedia.org...

Genesis does not tell for how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, but the Book of Jubilees states that they were removed from the garden on the new moon of the fourth month of the 8th year after creation (Jubilees 3:33); other Jewish sources assert that it was less than a day. Shortly after their expulsion, Eve brought forth her first-born child, and thereafter their second — Cain and Abel, respectively.

in christianity
en.wikipedia.org...

The story of Adam and Eve forms the basis for the doctrine of original sin, a doctrine that is held as true by many branches of Christianity, but is not shared by the Orthodox[11] or Congregationalist churches, nor by Judaism[citation needed] nor The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "

there are many more similarities than these but most people aren't aware of this so I thought itw as worth mentioning

all three religions tell of a flood sent by God (under different names)
the name of the flood hero in all three traditions is the same "Noah"

as I have shown the Hebrew tradition draws directly from the Epic of Gilgamesh for its details then its fairly obvious that the other two much later religious parallels draw on the Hebrew tradition

ask yourself

what part of the world do all three of these religions come from
and then
what was the earliest religious influence in that region
no matter which way you cut it you always end up back in ancient Sumer

this is not to say that I beleive that the Sumerians originated all these stories
they themselves claim that this all happened in the distant past before their civilisation existed in an entirely different location

the main point I am trying to make here is that History teaches us that there is no divine influence in any of the worlds three major religious influences
this is provable fact

its the ultimate irony isn't it
all three groups worshipping the same ancient God
denying that they are
and all claiming that their God is the right version
that being the case
why are all three constantly at war with each other

the most analysed of these three groups is the Hebrew bible
either because its been around longer or because the other two have a tendancy to kill anything that questions their belief
this book which i mentioned in the first post is the very best reseource I have ever read on this subject
www.virtualbookworm.com...
it has all the details anyone would ever need to see how the original 5 books of the Bible were put together and why


[edit on 31-3-2007 by Marduk]

great answer, thanks. its basically what i thought from my readings. just nice to have it laid out so simply. good deal!

i always liked the half-brother similarities between the religions (Issac/Ishmael and of course Enlil/Enki, and also Abraham i believe if we consider his prostituting his wife which he claims is actually his sister/half-sister or some such to the Pharoh.) its really hard to believe how many people ignore all these things and hang onto their "beliefs" in spite of the obvious.

I've been a lurker, reader here for several years and finally had to register and respond to this. No where in the bible does it say that God dictated the bible to Moses, he dictated the 10 Commandments.

welcome to the forum
its great to hear that something I wrote has bought you out of your lurker shell
I hope you have a great time here learning from people now you can ask specific questions in response to those threads and posts that interest you


in response to your question
you are quite right
the bible doesnt claim directly that Moses wrote the old testament
but it does say

Exodus 17:14 "Then the Lord instructed Moses, 'Write this down as a permanent record...'"
Exodus 24:4 "Then Moses carefully wrote down all the Lord's instructions."
Exodus 34:27 "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Write down all these instructions, for they represents the terms of my covenant with you and with Israel.'"
Leviticus 1:1 "The Lord called to Moses from the Tabernacle and said to him, 'Give the following instructions to the Israelites...'"
Leviticus 6:8 "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Give Aaron and his sons the following instructions...'"
Deuteronomy 31:9 "So Moses wrote down this law and gave it to the priests."
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 "When Moses had finished writing down this entire body of law in a book..."

Joshua 1:7-8 "...Obey all the laws Moses gave you."
Joshua 8:31-34 "He followed the instructions that Moses the Lord's servant had written in the Book of the Law..."
Joshua 22:5 "...obey all the commands and the laws that Moses gave to you."
2 Chronicles 34:14 "...Hilkiah the high priest...found the book of the Law of the Lord as it had been given through Moses."

these first quotations of course are referring to just the ten commandments
in the new testament this truth was twisted into the following:-

Matthew 19:7-8 "...why did Moses say a man could merely write an official letter of divorce and send her away?", they asked. Jesus replied, 'Moses permitted divorce...'"
Matthew 22:24 "Moses said, 'If a man dies without children...'"
Mark 7:10 "For instance, Moses gave you this law from God..."
Mark 12:24 "...haven't you ever read about this in the writings of Moses, in the story of the burning bush..."
Luke 24:44 "...I told you that everything written about me by Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must all come true."
John 1:17 "For the law was given through Moses..."
John 5:46 "But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"
John 7:23 "...do it, so as not to break the law of Moses..."
Acts 26:22 "...I teach nothing except what the prophets and Moses said would happen..."
Romans 10:5 "For Moses wrote..."

so according to Jesus
Moses wrote the entire old testament
you can say what you like about my scholarship
but are you going to question the word of the Lord ?



[edit on 31-3-2007 by Marduk]

Originally posted by thumper76
I've been a lurker, reader here for several years and finally had to register and respond to this. No where in the bible does it say that God dictated the bible to Moses, he dictated the 10 Commandments.

i believe when people say "the ten commandments" they sell the rest of the Torah short. you do understand that there are a couple of books in the old testament that are the laws of god handed down to Moses. (thats what the book says anyway), not just ten laws. and you could also infer an oral Torah that was given to Moses also (all on Mt. Sinai), if you are of that branch of beliefs.

so, short answer, no he didnt dictate "the bible" to Moses. He did (according to "the bible") hand down to Moses the laws of his chosen people and priests on Mt. Sinai. Read Genesis, Exodus, leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy(its a group of 5 books called the torah. its a big problem for xtians, hence they usually arent too familiar with it). and if i had a nickel for every time it says "and the lord called unto Moses and said..............." or some such quote of that ilk..................

well true or not the bible has some nice writing in it.wonder why people always say no matter how much u read it u always will find out new stuff couse its not an ordinary read.the more u think the more diferent ways u understand the bible.
yea i have readen so little and i was young gotta check it out tomorrow when i visit granpa^^

This is not recent news to me...

Sumaria was a high civilization in its day, and after the ice dams broke from the young Dryas period flooding was on a global scale. Even the centrally located farmers on what is now the Black Sea were scattered in all directions, then they and many from other parts of the Earth came together in Sumaria where these stories were told and recorded for prosterity.

As time passed priests saw opportunity to preserve their knowledge in the stories, so they were retold and rerecorded from the viewpoints of the victors in war and their beliefs.

The Bible is everything to all people. It is a great history book, a great work of fiction, a cryptology, an instrument of faith, and a repository of most major archtypes and story elements. Within one can find any evidence they desire to argue any point they wish.

The flipside is we could not have a Bible, or any holy texts. That would be worse, even if they are inaccurate. So in this regard I consider our time very fortunate.

Moses didn't even live through the entire Old Testament, true the first 5 books are the laws so I misunderstood a bit there but Joshua wrote a lot of the OT.

Originally posted by Matyas
This is not recent news to me...

Sumaria was a high civilization in its day, and after the ice dams broke from the young Dryas period flooding was on a global scale. Even the centrally located farmers on what is now the Black Sea were scattered in all directions, then they and many from other parts of the Earth came together in Sumaria where these stories were told and recorded for prosterity.

the younger dryas ended 11,600 years ago
there was no farming at this time anywhere on earth

at this time Sumer (Not Sumaria) had not even formed as the land it is formed from was deposited later by silt run off from the Tigris and Euphrates rivers as they wound their wy down from the Caucasus to the persian Gulf

there was no coming together in Sumer of peoples
it was inhabited by the semitic Ubaidians until the Sumerians showed up around 5000BCE and started a civilisation there

Sumer being the first civilisation on earth to develop writing were merely the first to write these stories down
when a story is writtten down it is no longer subject to as much change as an oral record
so the texts from ancient mesopotamia are as close to the original stories as you are ever likely to find