Bible is a recent hack job mystery solved

Originally posted by I am Legendno because they were all the same people. israeli people were from mesopotamia and migrated elsewhere. they didn't migrate to eden, they were from eden

so if the people of Israel migrated there from Mesopotamia, isint it impossible for the hebrews to come before the people they migrated away from?

or am i being a silly atheist?


Not sure I understand the question. I'm recovering from strep and have laryngitis, so i'm groggy and coughing and ugh. I'm also quite blonde. So go slow and try again, so I am sure I understand the question.

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Trimmed triple nested quote

[edit on 1/4/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by I am Legend
so if the people of Israel migrated there from Mesopotamia, isint it impossible for the hebrews to come before the people they migrated away from?

or am i being a silly atheist?

"They were from eden" would be a Biblical concept that means everyone is decendant from Adam and Eve who use to live in Eden before they got kicked out. Then jump to the Biblical Noah's time.

In Biblical terms, we will pick things up right after the flood is over. With at least three different sources, we can assume some type of flood happened. In Biblical terms, only Noah, his wife, and children and their spouses survived. They rebuilt the population and that population built Mesopotamia. In non-biblical terms a few people survived, repopulated the area and Mesopotamia was created. Either way in this scenerio, it would have been only a handful of people repopulating the area. The decendents would have come from those few people.

People moved out of Mesopotamia, and into other places, with some being very far away. They slowly developed their own language and culture. Most forgot the flood and everything that happened before it. They would have also forgotten any God that was known before the flood. All they would have had were there stories passed down, embellished upon, and some only a trace of what exactly happened.

Now go to Abraham's time. I wish I could remember where he lived. He was older, married, and living with his extended family when God called him out of where he was living. Told him to take his wife, servants, and things to a new land that he never knew. God would show him the way. It was later on Isreal was actually created.

In Biblical sense, everyone reverts back to Noah, and Noah reverts back to Adam and Eve.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by Mystery_Lady]
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[edit on 1/4/07 by masqua]

Originally posted by undo

No, it's a bait and switch scheme. Your facts aren't facts, but my facts are facts. Just watch Marduk, observe and learn the Duk.

Example:

Non-religious chap: You should not force people to believe what you believe!
Religious chap: I'm not forcing you to do anything. I'm just defending what I believe.
Non-religious chap: Well you shouldn't force people to believe your defense!
Religious chap: I'm not forcing people to believe my defense.
Non-religious chap: Well you should believe the way I do!
Religious chap: I don't want to.
Non-religious chap: Well you're an idiot that caused all the problems in the world and the sooner you're not here the better!
Religious chap: Erm, wait a second. That's not quite right.
Non-religious chap: Yes it is!
Religious chap: No it's not!
(ad infinitum)

(this said with utmost sincerity and firm conviction on the part of both participants)

I suppose putting the "non-religious chap" as the bad guy fits the theme of the very scenerio it is attempting to explain away? Very clever indeed, but still the story is a part of the story its self.

We could switch their positions therefore having no bait scheme. If their positions are interchangable, then it is seen from both sides, and that is where we should be at.

Instead of arguing, why don't we all accept one another? There are no facts to back any thing up anyway, correct?

God or no God, we all have to deal with each other on a day to day basis. Since there are no facts to back up God and no facts to diss claim God, then let's learn to love each other and work together and leave all of these judgemental convictions behind us.

Well, we've taken away from the original topic, so I'll bow my head and leave it behind. Enjoy the conversation

[edit on 1-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

OK, whoever said overpopulation's a problem, I have something for them to chew on, but first a little background:

Elrich's "The Population Bomb" is the preeminent book among those who believe that overpopulation exists. Elrich's theories have been completely destroyed by Julian Lincoln Simon.

And here's how.

"Critics have compared Ehrlich to Thomas Malthus for his multiple predictions of famine and economic catastrophe. The leading critic of Ehrlich was Julian Lincoln Simon, a libertarian theorist and the author of the book The Ultimate Resource, a book which argues a larger population is a benefit, not a cost. To test their two contrasting views on resources, in 1980, Ehrlich and Simon entered into a wager over how the price of metals would move during the 1980s. Ehrlich predicted that the price would increase as metals became more scarce in the Earth's crust, while Simon insisted the price of metals had fallen throughout human history and would continue to do so. Ehrlich lost the bet. Indeed such was the decline in the price of the five metals Ehrlich selected, Simon would have won even without taking inflation into account."

en.wikipedia.org...

And what does Mr. Simon say about the future of the human race?

"We have in our hands now—actually in our libraries—the technology to feed, clothe, and supply energy to an ever-growing population for the next 7 billion years. Most amazing is that most of this specific body of knowledge was developed within just the past two centuries or so, though it rests, of course, on basic knowledge that had accumulated for millennia. Indeed, the last necessary additions to this body of technology—nuclear fission and space travel—occurred decades ago."

en.wikipedia.org...

He's not alone in his belief that overpopulation is not an issue, consider that most estimate the Earth's "carrying capacity" to be between 15-20 billion, whereas Earth's population will probably plateau out at roughly 9 billion by 2300.

fubini.swarthmore.edu...
www.eroei.com...

...And there's always the stars to expand to!

Alright, now that I'm done with that, a little while ago legend said, "for the xtians who are mad at the word 'fact' i ask.............is it a fact that God gave his land to Issac and not Ishmael? if it is a fact, why does Islam exist?"

Well, did you ever consider the fact the fact that Islam could be wrong?

[edit on 1-4-2007 by uberarcanist]

Originally posted by I am Legend
view it as a type of food chain, with Islam at the bottom, then xtianity, then Judaism, and so forth all the way up to Aetheist on top. and thats a FACT. its a simple timeline in the end. the evolution of religion. simple.

Simple answers for simple minds. Do whatever makes you most comfortable, I suppose. Regarding your "food chain"... Hate to burst your bubble, but atheism is sort of a parasite living off of theism, so it doesn't even belong in the food chain. And atheism on top? Come on. I don't see where you get that, unless you're placing the philosophy with the least number of members at the top.

— Doc Velocity

You know what, L.O.V.E., I think you're on to something. I would be just fine and not be so "hardcore apologetic" if all atheists were not pushy. I can accept the fact that some people will just not believe in a God of any sort. Unfortunately, a lot of atheists are pushy. If I or my religion is attacked, I will not just lie down and take it.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
You know what, L.O.V.E., I think you're on to something. I would be just fine and not be so "hardcore apologetic" if all atheists were not pushy. I can accept the fact that some people will just not believe in a God of any sort. Unfortunately, a lot of atheists are pushy. If I or my religion is attacked, I will not just lie down and take it.

gotta hate those pushy non-believers.

lets see:

From Aletheia, The Rationalist's Manual (1897)
7,000,000 during the Saracen slaughters in Spain.
2,000,000 Saxons and Scandinavians lost their lives opposing the introduction of Christianity.
1,000,000 in the Holy Wars against the Netherlands, Albigenses, Waldenses, and Huguenots.

Cited in Will Durant, The Reformation (1957):
Juan Antonio Llorente, General Secretary of the Inquisition from 1789 to 1801, estimated that 31,912 were executed, 1480-1808.
In contrast to the high estimate cited above, Durant tosses his support to the following low estimates:
Hernando de Pulgar, secretary to Queen Isabella, estimated 2,000 burned before 1490.
An unnamed "Catholic historian" estimated 2,000 burned, 1480-1504, and 2,000 burned, 1504-1758

Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, v.5, 6
1st Crusade: 300,000 Eur. k at Battle of Nice [Nicea].
Crusaders vs. Solimon of Roum: 4,000 Christians, 3,000 Moslems
1098, Fall of Antioch: 100,000 Moslems massacred.
1099, Fall of Jerusalem: 70,000 Moslems massacred.
Siege of Tyre: 1,000 Turks
Richard the Lionhearted executes 3,000 Moslem POWs.


source

and that aint even scratching the surface.

gotta hate those pushy atheists and assorted other non-believers though. never mind whichever religion is being forced down someones throat by the sword. thats ok because god says so.

That comes nowhere close to the nearly 100 million killed in one century by atheists.

If you want a cease-fire as far as the debate is concerned you'd better put your money where your mouth is.

Originally posted by uberarcanist
That comes nowhere close to the nearly 100 million killed in one century by atheists.

If you want a cease-fire as far as the debate is concerned you'd better put your money where your mouth is.

ok. for starters.

you got that number off the top of your little google list.

its right here:
der

and quoted from it:
Actually, atheism has been responsible for more than 100 million deaths during the twentieth century.

thats a pro-xtian site also. i always have loved how you fudies always rub each others backsides while never actually breaking out of your little circle of holy knowledge.

read this would ya:

atheism

i freely admit that Communist countries have murdered many, but i blame that on communism, not atheism. the creedo of communism used atheism for its means. atheism in and of itself is not a belief system handed down from the non-existent god which tells us non-believes to kill people who arent of our ilk. thats religion. i understand its hard for you to walk away from a belief you have held most likely since birth, but kids have a hard time when they first hear that santa aint real either.

Just as you can claim that atheism can be abused for communism's ends I can claim that Christianity can be abused for feudalism's ends. But even if we hold this to be true, I believe atheism is still worse at the end of the day because once the foundation for traditional morality is gone, man really is little better than a rabid animal. The "high estimate" numbers for religious slaughter are far lower than the high estimate numbers for communist slaughter. Oh, and the "Christian/Muslim Slaughter" numbers usually come from biased sources, too.

Nice try.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by uberarcanist]

It seems this thread went WAAAAY off course and straight into a multi-page #-slinging contest, which is shame because the original post posed some interesting questions and ideas that were worth exploring.

The original post had flawed logic. The atheists didn't like the believers pointing that out, so they used textbook counterattacks and now we (the believers) are using textbook responses. But really that's the best you can expect when the original post is a classic example of trolling.

Originally posted by Doc Velocity
Marduk, you can give it your best shot, but I've heard better atheists than yourself make better and more informed cases against the Bible.

who are you calling an atheist
I believe in God
hes just not as genocidal as yours is
and hes worshipped by far more people

compared to my faith christianity is definitely in the minority

posted by ubercanist
The original post had flawed logic. The atheists didn't like the believers pointing that out, so they used textbook counterattacks and now we (the believers) are using textbook responses. But really that's the best you can expect when the original post is a classic example of trolling.

the original post was based on provable facts
just because you don't accept them does not make it any more true
but that aside
how do you feel about my next claim
are you ready for this one
Satan doesn't exist and I can prove it, He was invented by Judaism during the Babylonian captivity
now that statement is a 100% fact
would you like to see the details
or do you actually need satan to exist so you can still claim that only by being with your God is there any salvation
I'd think about that before you answer
my evidence is observably factual in this case
so if you agree with it then Satan doesn't exist
if you disagree with it then it indicates that you want and need him to exist
chew on that for a while
I'd be interested to see what you say
after all for a claimed religious person
every single one of your posts so far has been an attack on people who without following your middle eastern fairy tale book have better morals
and this at the same time that you are trying to claim to follow biblical teachings
where does it say attack anyone who doesn't agree with you
I thought only God was allowed to judge others
by your own standards you're going to hell for your actions in this thread so far





[edit on 1-4-2007 by Marduk]

Marduk, don't be absurd, false teachers are routinely attacked by Jesus in the New Testament, who Christians are taught to imitate.

You can't prove any of your outrageous claims so I don't even care what you claim to have on the devil.

Marduk, don't be absurd, false teachers are routinely attacked by Jesus in the New Testament, who Christians are taught to imitate.

oh really
how many miracles have you performed lately
in case you didn't realise it chirstians are supposed to follow his teachings
not attempt to emulate his actions
thanks for the compliment but I'm not teaching here
I'm posting irrefutable facts

just because you don't like it doesn't make them any less valid
it just makes your point of view ignorant



nice policy anyway
bury your head in the sand and hope you're correct
did you notice that every post in this thread so far by you is a personal attack on people who don't agree with you

so from now on why not try to emulate your saviour and let the rest of us discuss this without your interference.
you're not saving anyone
you're just trolling


there are two very interesting words that are relevant to this discussion
the second most have heard of which is "AN" the top god in the Sumerian pantheon
called "ANU" in Akkadia and Babylon

AN
the first is the word "SA" which means variously "to equal, compare, compete, be equal to, rival"

SA
now when you put them together and depending on what context they are used SA.AN can mean
equal to god
compare to god
compete with god
be equal to god
rival to god
the hebrew word Satan means "adversary"
which is akin to saying "rival to god" imo and in the opinion of anyone with common sense

but you may remember Enoch's book of the watchers in which Satans other name was used
Satanail

in Sumerian "AIL" translates directly as labour/labourer

AIL

So SA.AN.AIL means enemy to gods labour

and when you consider that the concept of Satan was first invented during the jewish exile at babylon its very easy to see how a Sumerian phrase over time became old nick
in fact before the Babylonian exile there were no angels at all
this is attested by an overly qualified expert on the matter

According to Rabbi Simeon ben Lakish of Tiberias (230–270 AD), all the specific names for the angels were brought back by the Jews from Babylon

en.wikipedia.org...
the only reason that Satan is spelled with a "T" is that the Hebrew language has no words with a A-A combination.
this is known as a compound word element and allows words from one language to be spoken in another adapting them to the new languages grammar rules.

of course you could take my word for it
but why don't you check it out for yourselves
psd.museum.upenn.edu...
this place really does have all the answers if you know how to read them

the interesting thing about Satan is that nowhere in the pentateuch does it actually mention him falling from heaven at all
it is mentioned in several places in the new testament
but as that was written in the modern era thats hardly relevant
it seems that in the ancient world the story of Satan falling from heaven didn't exist
obviously this was because he hadn't been invented by the Hebrews as a handy boogeyman until around 550bce
there is of course an earlier story that mentions a fall from heaven by a serpent. It was dug up at the ruins of the library of Nineveh over 100 years ago.
ask yourselves why you never heard of this before
and it was translated from an ancient text at the library of Nineveh by a Rabbi named "Turi"
here is the original story
it dates from 669- 627 BCE (100 years before the name Satan was used in any Jewish text anywhere

(The first four lines are broken. They related, no doubt, that a festival of praise and thanksgiving was being held in heaven, when this rebellion took place.)

5 The Divine Being spoke three times, the commencement
of a psalm.
6 The god of holy songs, Lord of religion and worship 7 seated a thousand singers and musicians: and established
a choral band
8 who to his hymn were to respond in multitudes ... 9 With a loud cry of contempt they broke up his holy song 10 spoiling, confusing, confounding, his hymn of praise. 11 The god of the bright crown [1] with a wish to summon his
adherents
12 sounded a trumpet blast which would wake the dead, 13 which to those rebel angels prohibited return, 14 he stopped their service, and sent them to the gods who
were his enemies.[2]
15 In their room he created mankind.[3] 16 The first who received life dwelt along with him. 17 May he give them strength, never to neglect his word, 18 following the serpent’s voice, whom his hands had made. 19 And may the god of divine speech [4] expel from his five
thousand [5] that wicked thousand
20 who in the midst of his heavenly son, had shouted evil
blasphemies!
21 The god Ashur, who had seen the malice of those gods who
deserted their allegiance
22 to raise a rebellion, refused to go forth with them.

www.bookrags.com...
this text detailing a fall from heaven by a serpent isn't the earliest of course
that glory falls to a much better known story
called the Enuma Elish
this story is known as the Babylonian creation story

When in the height heaven was not named,
And the earth beneath did not yet bear a name,
And the primeval Apsu, who begat them,
And chaos, Tiamut, the mother of them both
Their waters were mingled together,

www.sacred-texts.com...
the whole of this story contains the details of the fight between Tiamat who is a great red serpent of a species known as a mushushu dragon
thats an immense sea serpent and the symbol of the civilisations that arose in mesopotamia

heres an image of it from the walls of Babylon
and here is the word mushusu in sumerian cuneiform which dates from 1000 years before the Enuma Elish

you'll see that the third symbol along is almost identical to the one that later appears in the phrase Sa.an
which as I already stated
in its original language just means "enemy/equal/compete/rival of God"
this sa symbol is whats known as a determinative
in this case its a determinative that indicates that whatever word it appears in is a sea creature
not a cloven hooved demon who drags sinners down to hell
because that wouldn't be possible unless hell is a little damper than you'd been led to believe




So sorry guys if you didn't suspect it already Satan does not exist
he never did
organised religion lied about it because it thought you needed to be persuaded that if you didn't do what your priest said then you'd be punished for all eternity.

"oh bugger i've been found out"
Satan vanishes into a puff of smoke
and hell followed with him (Rev 6:8)

of course if like Ubercanist you don't believe this then I expect you should carry on going to church and putting money in the collection plate
after all
those organised religions are the richest organisations on earth and i'm sure they need more of your money


[edit on 1-4-2007 by Marduk]

[edit on 1-4-2007 by Marduk]

[edit on 1-4-2007 by Marduk]

And off he goes! Did I not say, the OP was tame by comparison?

I love it when he gets out the info, because I always manage to find useful data in it (a fact that seems to bother him, but he gets over it quickly by opening release valves in the form of insults of varying degrees of unrelatedness).

Go Duk go, but wait up for me. As soon as this groggy flu bug is behind me, we gonna tango.


[edit on 1-4-2007 by undo]

Originally posted by undo
Go Duk go, but wait up for me. As soon as this groggy flu bug is behind me, we gonna tango.

no doubt you have been aflicted by demons
or something

unless you really have been studying then i'm afraid we won't be doing any dancing
you'll just be spouting off on what you saw on the sci fi channel this week and speculating what it might mean by taking the real evidence out of context
thats what you usually do anyway

Originally posted by Marduk

no doubt you have been aflicted by demons
or something

unless you really have been studying then i'm afraid we won't be doing any dancing
you'll just be spouting off on what you saw on the sci fi channel this week and speculating what it might mean by taking the real evidence out of context
thats what you usually do anyway

thine memory is short .

or as yoda might say,

forget you have, the past.

[edit on 1-4-2007 by undo]

So according to what you have posted here, I see you presenting Satan as more of an act than a person. I would tend to agree, as the human race is indeed very cruel at times. But doesn't this put Satan squarely in the humanistic camp when interpreted as qualities?

It sure looks like it to me!

Originally posted by undo

thine memory is short .

or as yoda might say,

forget you have, the past.

right so they've been running the star wars movies again on sci fi then have they