Extraterrestrial UFO's Do Not Exist

I can see your point, but they are out there.

You have to at least be open to the possibility. That's all any one can ask.

Until there is proof either way there is no Black or White answer.

Originally posted by mecheng
Here's my universal-catch-all-standardized-debunking-statement...
"How do you know it's not a government project"?

That's the problem. We don't know what the government is capable of or what they are working on. We don't know for a fact that they haven't produced some anti-gravity propulsion system. And therefore, until little green men show up on the white house front lawn (or the governement tells us UFOs are real), we can never "prove" that the pictures and video are truely UFO's because there's always a chance they could just be some secret governement project.

For the governments sake I hope it's little green men! Could you imagine how pissed people would be if our govt. was sitting on tech. that would make the industrial revolution look like a wet fart. All those suffering below poverty and can't keep their kids warm/fed/clothed because of the cost would probably go nuts to the guts ape-sh!t. Hell I would be outraged and I have a very stable income and well provided for family. 99% of the worlds strife and war would be pointless since very clean, very cheap energy could be available for all, without the need for Oil Wars. Not to mention open up the ENORMOUS resources of the solar system for our benefit. Also think of the jobs introducing this tech could create! Many, many people would benefit and perhaps finally get the whole planet up to at least "middle-class".

Who ever is flying these things isn't the issue for me, (even though I personally favor the ETH) It's how did they build it!





[edit on 16-2-2007 by Stale Cracker]

I like these kinds of threads.

My basic question to your very bold and unforgiving affirmation of your beliefs is simple. Can you (in good faith) discount every claim by every person throughout history (including those claims made before aircraft riddled our skies) as explainable events that could not even POSSIBLY be extraterrestrial in origin?

Even more directly, do you have any type of evidence to back up your claim that ET/UFOs do not exist? What you have presented as backing for your arguement is basically what the believers also present, personal observations based on what you know or have experienced.

Now in your limited view of reality (to be fair we all have a very limited view of the same reality) you have completely dismissed even the possibility of ET/UFO's simply because in the last 20-ish years you haven't seen one? Apart from a few pictures I haven't actually seen the Great Wall of China, but that doesn't mean those pictures weren't real and all those that have seen it were delusional. On the flip side, that also doesn't mean that I could just look at any old wall and say good enough and conclude that the Great Wall exists because I have seen lesser ones. (I hope my meaning is coming through.. I'm not trying to make light of your beliefs, just trying to put them into perspective.) I could study all known walls, compare every wall I know of to pictures of the Great Wall, and all I would be able to say for certain was that the Great Wall was not any of the walls I have ever seen, though I couldn't discount that the Great Wall truly exists.

I am not going to try to impress my own ideas on you, but I would like to share them with you.

Regardless of whether or not one has experienced a phenominon, it is not realistic to completely dismiss it without the highest degree of PROOF. This is how agnostics operate, and I like to fancy myself agnostic in many respects. Am I opposed to the idea that ET/UFOs are visiting Earth? Nope, because I don't know all the variables in the equation. Am I opposed to the idea of a God/Creator? Nope, again, because I don't have all the data. Does this mean I believe in them and say they exist? Nope, I couldn't really tell you that either.

The point I am trying to get across is that you shouldn't close yourself off to the POSSIBILITY of ET/UFOs just because the PROBABILITY of the outcome is too high to calculate.

If you give enough monkeys enough typewriters... one of them could explain it better than me.. (And I dont think it would take many monkeys)

Hank

There is an unspoken assumption that "anti-gravity" equals "free-energy".

What if it doesn't?

Suppose there is some magic gravity-altering technology that secret government labs have deployed, but it takes real serious conventional energy sources? Like jet fuel or some nuclear power?

What if there is NO "free energy"?

E.g. this mythical "TR3b" US gravity-modifying aircraft. Suppose it needed a nuclear fission reactor? If it did, then it would have to be small and compact like that of a submarine, and of course you'd have to maintain it and fly with real seriously trained experts.

This would be clearly totally impractical for commercial aviation. Furthermore the fuel for compact fission reactors like on submarines (as opposed to power plants) is close to weapons-grade uranium and there is a very major security problem. It's damned hard to steal uranium from a nuclear sub or navy ship, obviously, but something in commercial aviation would be entirely different.

I'd still want to know about this gravitational manipulation tech, but it might not at all be any magic answer to anything. With global warming, low-pollution energy is much more important.

So I wonder what the author's monsters were?

Does he wake at 3am with frequency?

Afraid of Clowns?

Got a break at the T3?

What about at the L5/S1?

Are you IRISH? CELTIC? NATIVE AMERICAN?


See... I am in that SAME age group. And until I was 35 years old... it was ALL coincidence to ME too...

LOOK CLOSER.

DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING. NOTHING. NOT EVEN WHO YOUR OWN MOMMY AND DADDY ARE.

If you think I'm kidding... you'd better review the part in the Bible about the hearts of men STOPPING from FEAR. YOU may be in for a RIDE!

What if DEBUNKING is part of YOUR programming? What if THEY "suggested" it to you... and YOU merely chose to act on it... no harm no foul right?

Things sometimes are much DIFFERENT than they APPEAR.

beteo
SPout

Originally posted by Royal76
I can see your point, but they are out there.

You have to at least be open to the possibility. That's all any one can ask.

Until there is proof either way there is no Black or White answer.

Man... I just gotta ask.

I've seen your posts ALL OVER.

Are you Alex Jones? Seriously. It's a GOOD thing if you are... LOL!

seriously. are ya?

SPout

I suppose it would be easy for someone to not believe in UFOs if they have never seen them. I have seen things in Dayton, OH and in Sedona,AZ that move go from standing still to zooming incredibly fast, turning sharp degrees instantly, and disappearing. Sure, Mooney, you may know a lot about what has been made here, but try to explain the movements of these types of "craft" (or whatever they may be). Perhaps you should stop watching the PROGRAMS that the Right is producing, and start paying attention to the real facts.

It is also incredibly naive to believe that in all of this space, that there would only be us. How sad, lonely and Boring the universe must be for people like Mooney. That is the same kind of rationale that says humans have dominion here on Earth. Tell that to all the folks that have died in this blizzard, or in the tornado in Florida. Tell them that we are alone and have dominion over this planet.

ok first off i have seen a ufo with 4 of my friends when i was 16, it scared the hell out of us, it was 6 years ago and i still remember it like yesterday. It seems to me that there is more evidance that ufos do exist then dont. you are tottaly passing by all the facts and accounts. its easy to say, "oh it was a weather phenomina", you are saying to people that they are either delusional or dont know what they saw, how the hell could you possibly even know what all these people actually saw, well i guess we should be happy that ats has someone as smart as you to tell us what is real and is not(sarcasm).

[edit on 16-2-2007 by nightsescape]

Sometimes a strong and seemingly indisputable case arises such as the recent O’Hare sighting, but most are obvious hoaxes.

Therein lies the problem...if even ONE case is true, then alien visitation is true.

There is no need to come to a finalized decision, when the evidence is still popping up to suggest it... However, as always, you are certainly entitled to your own opinion of the matter. I share your skepticism, but I have also seen enough evidence to know there is "something" to this, and some cases simply cannot be dismissed as misidentification or hoaxes.

I must admit that while the terms UFO and extraterrestrial are both subjective, I cant deny some of the evidence that has been presented by people that have had close encounters, as well as various credible witnesses from the Disclosure project.

While I have never had any sightings or close contact, I cant help but believe that civilizations from out of this world have been visiting us. With the statements of Ben rich taken into account about anything that we could possibly deam up being a reality, I find it hard to fathom that earthlings have created vehicles/craft that can melt into one another, then split up into multiples and take off at speeds which we cannot comprehend. Not to mention the close encounter shows which have aired on Discovery, TLC and History channels about craft leaving first hand evidence of materials that do not exist natuarally on this planet, and the adverse effects that it has on people who interact with it.

At this point, I cannot make such a one sided judgement that these two things do not exist, as until irrefutable evidence is presented saying that they dont, the possibilities of them actually existing are more than likely.

If you are into gambling, the odds alone tell you that the chance of us being the only intelligent race in the infinite realms of space are too big to comprehand.

I hear what you all are saying, and I believe there is alot of truth to it. I believe there are some questionable people in the UFO field i.e. Dr. Greer is one example. I'm currrently reading a book called Alien Agenda by another questionable UFOlogy expert by the name Jim Marrs. During chapter one Mr. Marrs makes the extraordinary claim that the moon may in fact be the greatest UFO of them all. A small planet brought here from beyond our solar system and put into orbit around Earth to monitor our evolution/activities. While interesting, it seemed pretty far-fetched.

I think I would find the whole UFO phenom much more difficult to believe had it not been for my aunt's sighting. I have a (late) aunt who claimed to have seen a five-foot spinning metallic disc at very close range in Peru (my mother is from Peru) during the early-mid 1960s. I've thought alot about her claims and have come to the conclusion that I believe her for the following reasons.

1. While she (my aunt) died when I was very young (I was born in 76), I have been to Peru twice and know my mother's family quite well. They don't seem phoney in any way. They seem like hard working happy people who live in a poor country.

2. If my aunt was trying to make money or simply looking for attention (within the family) then why a spinning metal disc? This was at a time before sci-fi really took off. I have to wonder why/how a woman of a 3rd world country (who was in her 30s at the time) would come up with such a story? When she died of cancer in the late 70s there was no secret stash of sci-fi comic books discovered under her bed.

3. In the USA we use material wealth to make us happy. In nations like Peru they don't have the wealth we do so they find it in other ways like family and religion. My mother's family is very close. It's normal for family members (in Peru) to live together at any age (unlike this country where we all move out of our parent's home at 18). My mother's family is also very catholic. It occured to me that if she was going to concoct a supernatural story then why not claim she saw the Virgin Mary (or something like that). Why a metal disc? A sighting of the Virgin Mary (for example) would probably gain her more attention or money in that region of the world and within her own family. Again, why a metal a disc?

4. I'm lookin for motive here... Someone who wants to make money doesn't wait 10 years to tell people about the claim. Whatever she saw, scared her to the point that she didn't tell anyone in the family (again a very close family) for many many years. It doesn't sound like she was trying to make money. It sounds like she was very disturbed by something her brain couldn't explain and she was silent for many years.

5. If the story went something like "aunt so and so saw some funny light in the sky yada yada," I would have dismissed it as nonsense. But she claims it was very close (I'm guessing 100 feet or less) so there's very little room for misindentifications unless she was abusing some potent peruvian herb which makes one totally delusional. I don't believe she was a drug user. The only drug that really comes out of peru is coc aine which doesn't make one see saucers. Also, (again) my mother's family is very close and it would be hard to hide a drug habit.

6. At only five feet in diameter the vehicle would have to be a UAV. Did UAV's even exist in the 1960s? It's my understanding that they are making great strides in the present day and not in the saucer form... rather more conventional propulsion techniques. Even if the USA or USSR had a "small disc shaped" UAV why spy on an average citizen in the country of Peru??

Conclusion

Now I have to ask myself the question: Who manufactured spinning metal discs in the 1960s? Did the USA? No. Did the USSR? No. Did the Peruvian or Chilean gov't (Chile and Peru have a history of not getting along) manufacture it? No. So after eliminating all the conventional explanations you get to the unconventional. As whacky as it sounds I'm forced to conclude that someone else did. But just who is that someone else?

Is it some forgotten ex-Nazi scientist in a secret underground base pumping out saucers for the purpose of spying on affairs of peruvians? I think at some point in time I took a leap of faith and admitted that whoever manufactures those vehicles are not human.

It's my feeling that our culture (while serving great/wonderful purposes) can entangle one into thinking that Earth and humans is all that is. Furthermore, it is well documented that all of our technology is still in it's infancy. We just started using the atmosphere to fly 100 years ago. Just sent someone to the moon 38 years ago. Heck I can remember growing up in the 80s and the pc was almost unheard of. Now everyone has one and everyone is connected.

It certainly makes me wonder what mankind could accomplish in say 1000 years? Or 10,000? What about a million (still a small amount of time in a geological and cosmological timeframe)?

The late Carl Sagan once asked,

“What does it mean for a civilization to be a million years old? We have had radio telescopes and spaceships for a few decades; our technical civilization is a few hundred years old... an advanced civilization millions of years old is as much beyond us as we are beyond a bush baby or a macaque.”

I think the answer to Dr. Sagan's question is in the UFO phenom. Admittedly, there is alot to the UFO phenom. One must be very skeptical when reviewing the evidence, however not so close minded to the point where you allow your ego (wanting so badly to be the most intelligent organism alive) to start dictating what your mind should think. Also, I would urge people to take off the cultural blinders and recognize what a significant percentage of us believe in God. IMO God is much more difficult to believe in than a percentage of UFOs being of ET design.

-SJ



[edit on 16-2-2007 by Scramjet76]

[edit on 16-2-2007 by Scramjet76]

Originally posted by Txhunter67
Mooney: Your points are very well thought out and reasonable.

I'm probably a little slow, but I didn't see many strong points on why UFO's or alien spacecraft don't exist. The most I got out of that was theres no evidence and people are clinging to small bits of unprovable shreds of evidence. While that may be true in some respects, if indeed a alien civilization was coming here, they aren't going to leave their spacecraft behind, and they aren't going to pose for pictures. To me there's plenty to suggest an alien spacecraft, and the sightings from around the world for hundreds of years. Even cave paintings show encounters.

Originally posted by MooneyBravo
"This is mostly due to the fact that every alleged UFO video or picture can be systematically debunked over time, if not immediately"

I certainly don't believe that. Even J allen hynek changed his mind about UFO's.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by Freezer]

How can you debunk UFO depictions/descriptions in the bible or in classical artwork, Mooney Bravo? Pretty hard to do , no?

I have interpreted the original poster's statement as meaning that it is his or her belief, as opposed to conclusive reality, that extraterrestrial intelligence is not and has not been responsible for documented UFO phenomena to date. I have not interpreted the original poster's statement as an attempt to debunk anything, as he or she has not asserted that this is a conclusive reality, but rather his or her personal belief based on the available information. Furthermore, he or she has not attempted to change anyone else's mind or force his or her belief on others. On the contrary, he or she appears to be attempting to include expressions of admiration, respect, and tolerance with regard to views different from his or her own, in his or her statement.

We should not be so fast to vilify those who respectfully, articulately, and politely express views different from our own, particularly when no concerted effort is being made to foist those views on us or change our minds. I personally believe it is more than possible that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin, however when we bristle at the pronouncement of contrary beliefs, we become as close minded as some believe those unwilling to accept the possibility that our view is correct are.

Edited for clarity.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by AceWombat04]

It seems to me that none of us have to believe, or to disbelieve in anything...

Belief systems are becoming obselete. Quantum Physics implies that there are no absolutes - just probabilities, i.e. - we can't actually say what something "out there" "really is", just what it "appears to be"

Just be open to any new information that comes along, without making any judgements imo...



[edit on 16-2-2007 by NeuronDivide]

Originally posted by AceWombat04
I have interpreted the original poster's statement as meaning that it is his or her belief, as opposed to conclusive reality, that extraterrestrial intelligence is not and has not been responsible for documented UFO phenomena to date. I have not interpreted the original poster's statement as an attempt to debunk anything, as he or she has not asserted that this is a conclusive reality, but rather his or her personal belief based on the available information. Furthermore, he or she has not attempted to change anyone else's mind or force his or her belief on others. On the contrary, he or she appears to be attempting to include expressions of admiration, respect, and tolerance with regard to views different from his or her own, in his or her statement.

We should not be so fast to vilify those who respectfully, articulately, and politely express views different from our own, particularly when no concerted effort is being made to foist those views on us or change our minds. I personally believe it is more than possible that UFOs are of extraterrestrial origin, however when we bristle at the pronouncement of contrary beliefs, we become as close minded as some believe those unwilling to accept the possibility that our view is correct are.

Edited for clarity.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by AceWombat04]

I totally agree, this is an opinion piece.

People here would be SHOCKED to find out that we are NOT being visited by extraterrestrial beings, and that all sightings are nothing more than government crafts and demons on this planet trying to divert attention from God.

They might be just as shocked to find out that God is real.

You can not prove nor disprove any of the above, and all deserve equal unbiased investigating.

Originally posted by disownedsky
You may well be right.
Maybe we need an ongoing thread r.e. the Fermi paradox: they should be here, but compelling scientific evidence eludes. Why?

Compelling scientific evidence does exist. Many people choose to ignore the evidence.

There are many pictures and videos of UFOs performing extraordinary stunts. That's evidence.

They have been recorded and tracked on radar. That's evidence.

They have been seen by multiple, independent witnesses at the same time from different locations. That's evidence. (Remember, eyewitness accounts are sufficient to send accused people to jail in a court of law)

They have caused electrical interference with cars, planes, power grids and other appliances. That's evidence.

They have left landing marks on the ground that have been photographed. They have broken trees and disturbed grasses where they have landed. That's evidence.

They have left strange radiation signatures on the ground. That's evidence.

They have left burn marks on victims that were too close to them. That's evidence.

They have left abductees with all sorts of strange physical effects after being abducted, including missing time. That's evidence.

There is abundant evidence for UFOs. Don't ignore it, investigate it.

You should be always be open to the possibility even if the evidence is not quantifiable by modern scientific terms.. the evidence is surely there.

Personally, I have had and encounter of the 5th kind but up until that moment I had seen obvious anti-grav craft on several occasions with multiple witnesses (some as close as 50ft.) but until I saw "them" I had always believed these ships to be terrestrial - some kind of top secret technology.

As they say... seeing is believing.

[edit on 16-2-2007 by kronos11]

First off, let just say “WOW” and thank you to all of those who have responded to my thread. I really thought I would either get blasted by everyone or get no responses at all. So again, I thank you all.

I have read your comments and would like to respond to all but there are just so many so I will respond to those who have really caught my eye. To begin with, I have noticed that some one you have stated your belief in the existence of alien life beyond our own planet and that a growing number of scientists also believe in life on other planets. I too believe this to be the case and I am a scientist as well. As an amateur astronomer, I am quit aware of the vastness of space and because of that vastness and the overwhelming number stars observed it is a statistical probability that there is life elsewhere in the universe. I am only a skeptic in regard to extraterrestrial visitation of our planet.

One particular member seemed to suggest that simply because I have not experienced a “sighting” of my own that that does not constitute a lack of evidence. From my personal perspective it most certainly does constitute a lack of evidence just as much as it is evidence for those who have had a legitimate sighting.

This member said this:

Originally posted by HankMcCoy
I like these kinds of threads.

My basic question to your very bold and unforgiving affirmation of your beliefs is simple. Can you (in good faith) discount every claim by every person throughout history (including those claims made before aircraft riddled our skies) as explainable events that could not even POSSIBLY be extraterrestrial in origin?

HankMcCoy,

I cannot “in good faith” discount every claim by every person throughout history nor would I ever try to. I think some of the best cases are those that occurred long before the advent of computers (and Photoshop) and even before the proliferation of manned flight. It is these cases in particular that that I struggle with even as I type this response. But I must ask the counter question: Were these people witness to something they simply did not have the scientific understanding of at the time? That is a valid question that even the most hardcore believers need to consider. Another thing that weighs heavily on my mind is scientists like J Allen Hynek and Stanton Friedman. Both of them were/are reasonable skeptics, as am I. Stanton Friedman has actually done more to refute many of the less credible claims. He is doing well in revealing hoaxers. I must also add that the burden of proof lies not with skeptics, but with those who make the claims. After all, extraterrestrials are not a common element of our society. Few people, if any, have ever actually seen one.

I would like to end this message by reiterating what I said in my opening post: I mean no disrespect to anyone who believes wholeheartedly that we are being visited. In fact, I do respect those that adhere to their belief. I am merely stating my conclusion to this phenomenon. I am, however, still open to any “real” evidence that may come my way. I want to see one. I want to believe.