totally agree with defcon5 that they are planes.

I also beleive frozenthought is a hoaxster. why does he suddenly become disinterested in the object that goes off to the left? i guess becuase it becomes clear its a plane landing.

case closed: aeroplanes landing

defcon5> First of all, the video shooters all say that they're hovering above the lake. Don't you think they're better at estimating the distance seeing how they're actually there?

Secondly, in the link Frozen posted you can see an illuminous UFO that's hovering above the lake, And it has a mountain/large hill in the background, supporting the theory of it hovering.

Thirdly, in one of the videos in the link you can see two Very similar craft hovering at an Angle above the lake, do regular aircraft do this?

Fourthly. Not at one point does the space between the lights either increase nor decrease, and last time I checked, planes have to fly at quite some speed to be able to stay airborne. Not even in the turns (banking) or when the lights fade away they do this. So if the angle of the headlights isn't what's making them fade away, what is? These craft seem to be displaying a 'crab walk'/free direction type of propulsion, not having to change the direction of the craft in order to fly in it, something I'VE seen up close(r).

(I'll stop the numbers now) Nowhere to be found are the typical blinking lights. I'm sure you know what they're called and what they do. I'm also sure you know how freakishly strong they have to be in order to be visible, but something tells me you won't be sharing this information with us, it doesn't support your theory after all.

Frozen> Good job in finding those. I think defcon here puts up a good fight, but you shouldn't let it bother you, you have your own video recording in your head to go by after all. Hope you find some more clips! The ones in the link you posted very all Very interesting, especially the 'Pillar of fire' ones. I'm sure you can find more similar footage.

[edit on 9-2-2007 by Drexon]

Originally posted by yeti101case closed: aeroplanes landing

For an ATS user with 23 ATS points you sure drive a hard conversation. Way to go there, sport. Get the heck out if you're just gonna troll.

Originally posted by Drexon

Originally posted by yeti101case closed: aeroplanes landing

For an ATS user with 23 ATS points you sure drive a hard conversation. Way to go there, sport. Get the heck out if you're just gonna troll.

And that's coming from someone with under 3000 points? Who are you to police the boards and tell people what or what they are not allowed to post? Leave that to the mods please.

okay,let not turn this into a slanging match. point being, as it appears at the moment, we have a number of skeptics of this video. i have never seen what i belive to be a ufo, but i have seen a large number of aircraft landing at night (primarily military(used to live near fairford, uk)). IMO, it doesnt look too much like the way an aircraft manuevers (sp?) when coming in to land, but that said, we are talking commercial airliners (i guess?) that are coming in over the lake. i dont know. IMO, i think it is a little odd to be planes. but hey, again, thats just my opinion.

OK, let's all calm down on who has the right to post thoughts! Trolling is not a friendly thing to do, and points don't qualify the ability to post GOOD responses, just not one liners as mentioned. That aside, let's leave the decisions to the mods as far as rules go...what do you all say??

To the thread at hand, it's very interesting! The afterburner idea is ridiculous by the way! I have been involved with F18's for a while and there's no way it's burners...however, not to rule out anything, it could be any number of other possibilities in my opinion.

The maneuvering of the craft in the first join up (left bank to Defcon) seems very consistent with a line up for approach from an outer marker perspective, Aircraft line up and also setup for approach from different markers, the outer marker usually does NOT involve lowereing the gear, but at the inner marker the landing gear are deployed..showing 3 sets of lights.

It looks at first glance like a landing pattern that merged two planes too close to me but I am going to look at it a few more times I think. The angles of the lights sure look like aircraft (maybe commercial, maybe military(although very unlikely)) mainly due to their speed. These are relatively slow undulating moves that are very consistent and necessary for a commercial airliner, sort of like a driving a bus vs. a sports car.

Anyway, back to the vid for a moment, just my opinions, Peace Mondo

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
There is no way that the lights on the video are caused by any fixed wing aircraft, no way whatsoever.

Prove it…

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
but that theory goes out the window because there is no sound being emitted.

Planes don’t make sound head on until they are almost above you. Look at the video I posted above and see for yourself.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
As you can see a clear gap between the light it means the object is not all that far away, and definatly in audible range.

That gap is in three dimensions, not the two you can make out in the video. It’s also almost impossible to tell aircraft range in the dark.

Originally posted by yeti101
I also beleive frozenthought is a hoaxster. why does he suddenly become disinterested in the object that goes off to the left? i guess becuase it becomes clear its a plane landing.

Even better yet, why does he lose interest in the one that is “getting close” all of the sudden too? Here it comes its getting close, we are going to get a good shot of it, and whammo, he shuts off the camera?!?

I will also go the extra step at this point and say I believe it’s a hoax and they knew exactly what they were filming, when to change objects, and when to shut off the camera or give it a good shake or zoom.

Originally posted by Drexon defcon5> First of all, the video shooters all say that they're hovering above the lake. Don't you think they're better at estimating the distance seeing how they're actually there?

Good, maybe they can explain why they had to shut off the camera when the second aircraft started to “get close”? Why they never go back to the one that is landing, or why they did not leave the film in night vision mode where we could see the shore line as reference?

Ill tell you why, it’s a Hoax.

Originally posted by Drexon
Secondly, in the link Frozen posted you can see an illuminous UFO that's hovering above the lake, And it has a mountain/large hill in the background, supporting the theory of it hovering.

Not in the slightest. I lived in MI and have been on the lakes, and now live in FL by the ocean. An aircraft with landing lights on can fly straight at you over a body of water and you can see the lights sometimes 10 or 15 minutes. They will appear to hover. The Video is not long enough to be a good judge of this though.

Originally posted by Drexon
Thirdly, in one of the videos in the link you can see two Very similar craft hovering at an Angle above the lake, do regular aircraft do this?

What angle? I don’t know what you mean by hovering at an angle, you mean an angle above ground, yeah about 30 degrees over the horizon, but if that 30 degrees is stretched out over 10 miles they might be at 10000 feet.

Originally posted by Drexon
Fourthly. Not at one point does the space between the lights either increase nor decrease, and last time I checked, planes have to fly at quite some speed to be able to stay airborne. Not even in the turns (banking) or when the lights fade away they do this.

With flaps down they can fly pretty darn slowly, a good guess from me would be about 60-80 knots. But when they are flying straight at you for 30 or so miles that can take some time, and they look like they are hovering.

Originally posted by Drexon
Not even in the turns (banking) or when the lights fade away they do this. So if the angle of the headlights isn't what's making them fade away, what is?

If the camera man would not play with the zoom it would most likely be easier to judge, they obvious do change distance its obvious in AC2…

Originally posted by Drexon
Nowhere to be found are the typical blinking lights.

Dc-9, MD-80, MD-90, B717, don’t have bright blinking lights and the couple they do have are drown out by the landing lights and not visible, check my pictures above. The Strobe and Nav lights are only inches away from the landing lights on these aircraft, and the beacon is not normally visible.

Originally posted by Drexon
I'm sure you know what they're called and what they do.

Yeah strobes, rotating beacon, and navigation lights. Next question, I love to answer aviation questions unlike Mr lear.

Originally posted by Drexon
I'm also sure you know how freakishly strong they have to be in order to be visible, but something tells me you won't be sharing this information with us, it doesn't support your theory after all.

Yeah they are EXTREAMLY bright, they never run them coming into the gate, except to signal ready to approach to the marshalling agent, and then they only flash them for a second. That is because they can damage the retina of the guy flagging them in if left on for too long. They can burn through fog, be seen through clouds, and are visible for many miles. They are the brightest lights on an aircraft.

Originally posted by Drexon
but something tells me you won't be sharing this information with us, it doesn't support your theory after all.

Something tells me that your wrong, and your way wrong about me if you think I don’t know my crap about planes pretty darn good.

Originally posted by Drexon
especially the 'Pillar of fire' ones. I'm sure you can find more similar footage.

You mean the landing lights that came on while still retracted into the wing surface, yeah that is neat looking, one day when you work at an airport maybe you’ll see that one for yourself with your own eyes. I have seen it, on a nice foggy night at TPA…

Originally posted by Drexon
For an ATS user with 23 ATS points you sure drive a hard conversation. Way to go there, sport. Get the heck out if you're just gonna troll.

And you have what like 20 posts more, give me a break. How dare you pick on a new user like that just because he does not agree with you?


[edit on 2/9/2007 by defcon5]

I don't think your comment about frozen being a hoaxster is appropriate. He came here with info about a UFO that he could not identify, if it is identified by the many experts here then fine.

Someone that perpetrates a hoax is something completely different.

Anyhow, welcome to ATS.

Originally posted by yeti101
totally agree with defcon5 that they are planes.

I also beleive frozenthought is a hoaxster. why does he suddenly become disinterested in the object that goes off to the left? i guess becuase it becomes clear its a plane landing.

case closed: aeroplanes landing

[edit on 9-2-2007 by Realtruth]

Originally posted by Mondogiwa
It looks at first glance like a landing pattern that merged two planes too close to me but I am going to look at it a few more times I think.

Good point. I also thought about it being a “Go-Around”, or possibly that it was heading to a different airport. Its darn hard to tell though as we have no point of reference when he is not in night vision mode, and cannot tell if he is moving the zoom or the camera. When it was in Night vision mode it appears that both are normally stacked for approach to me, so that is what I have to go with.

Also if you watch the bright spot on the left, it appears to me that there is a light that moves from the right of the bright spot to the left, then waits a few moments and again moves right to left. I am going to have to say that is a runway landing light.


[edit on 2/9/2007 by defcon5]

Well, I have no claim that frozen is a hoaxster or not...maybe/maybe not!

However, I have a huge amount of hours being on runways and around aircraft and can agree with you on the bizarre factor that other people have about the lights. For people that simply do not understand what aircraft can actually do, it seems obvious that they are not aircraft. I hear all the time, "that doesn't look or act like any airplane I've ever seen". Exactly, because they have never seen what a "normal" airplane can do not to mention something along the lines of the F18's I dealt with or even more like the newest generation aircraft.

A note to people out there! We must take all possibilities into account on this vid, BUT....aircraft act in ways that they have to around you most of the time due to FAA restrictions and regulations. Outside of that, they are incredibly powerful and capable of things that most people would say is impossible...please believe me on this one, they can blow you mind!!!

This vid, not to be a bummer at all because I think there are occurences out there for sure, really looks like a very and i mean very typical misjudgement by AC2 to begin an approach. To be totally accurate, the pilot's closing velocity looks to fast and he/she had to overcompensate to corrrect as he/she had too much airspeed and needed to bank to bleed airspeeed and was probably given a new vector to get a new approach clearance!

Of course, this is just my opinion that I have seen over and over again....Peace, Mondo

Hey, most of us would love for this to be UFO's but it just doesn't look to be the case here.

There must be a number of airstrips near the lakes and I'm sure many flights require approach over water. I see nothing more than planes lining up.

Atmospheric conditions will often cause visual distortion and give the illusion of slightly odd patterns but I don't see anything too odd here. Regarding noise, there are many factors that would make the sound inaudible to certain areas even though the aircraft is clearly visible.

Good job defcon5!

Don't give up Frozenthought, at least you are trying.


[edit on 9-2-2007 by jbondo]

I second Defcon5.

Sorry, but if you watch the video as the camera follows AC2 towards the end, you definitely see one light higher than the other, then they get really bright, then they get dimmer, then the lights level off, and get closer together.

Seems indicative of an aircraft banking, coming to face the camera, then continuing the bank. Plus at the very end you start to see some faint blinking, or flashing. A signal light perhaps?

Also, the area to the left of the shot when NV is on is eerily similar to that of a runway.

Personally the craft look at least 2-5 miles or more out from the cams POV. If they are coming head on, they wouldn't make much sound from that distance, and any faint sound coming from the craft would be washed out by the sound of the shoreline until they get a lot closer than they were.

It's a good video, and I definitely would have thought twice about it if I was there. It was a strange sight to behold, but ultimately it's shaping up to look more like aircraft approaching a runway that anything else.

This doesn't mean you should stick your camcorder back in the bag to collect dust, however!

Keep filming!! we'll get 'em eventually...

ALL aircraft that we have give off a noise signature. Frozenthought has stated that these craft were dead silent. I'm not going to be so quick to discount the footage with the usual debunkments.

I am also from the great lakes. seeing lots of planes of all types fly over the lakes I can say the original video is nothing you'll see on a normal accord...I'm no aviation expert..but, I do watch the skys over lake superior more than I should.

also, I might add, not meaning to diminish the movies at all..ufos do frequent the lakes quite often..but, around this time of year planes normally fly lower altitudes over the lakes because of the fierce lake effect weather.
[edit on 9-2-2007 by waffleprime]

[edit on 9-2-2007 by waffleprime]

Sorry if I upset some of you, but that's my opinion on the 23 point guy and I stand for it. He didn't contribute anything to the conversation, it just got to me.

Good, maybe they can explain why they had to shut off the camera when the second aircraft started to “get close”?

'Why' are you asking me? You can't prove anything by that logic, nor convince anyone either. 'Sides, it looked like it disappeared towards the end of the video.

Not in the slightest. I lived in MI and have been on the lakes, and now live in FL by the ocean. An aircraft with landing lights on can fly straight at you over a body of water and you can see the lights sometimes 10 or 15 minutes. They will appear to hover. The Video is not long enough to be a good judge of this though.

Did you Watch the videos? It's clearly a small UFO hovering just above the lake at close proximity. Watch it again and tell me the same thing. Please, that way I'll know you're wrong.

What angle? I don’t know what you mean by hovering at an angle, you mean an angle above ground, yeah about 30 degrees over the horizon, but if that 30 degrees is stretched out over 10 miles they might be at 10000 feet.

Again, did you Watch the videos? I'm talking about the second one, called "Passersby". Two identical UFOs such as this one were videotaped over the same lake, but they hovered at an angle, roughlyyy 5º. Again, watch the videos, they correlate to Frozens story.

With flaps down they can fly pretty darn slowly nip>

Wow, I'm convinced. No case here.

If the camera man would not play with the zoom nip>

Again, you're just avoiding the subject.

Dc-9, MD-80, MD-90, B717, don’t have bright blinking lights etc etc

Fine, I told you I thought you were more knowledgeable than me on that, however so far these is the only thing you've managed to convince me about.

You mean the landing lights that came on while still retracted into the wing surface

Yeah.. that's.. that's definitely what it looks like.

20 posts

100 posts. I only post in the more serious discussion exclusively on This forum. I've been here since 2004, every day.

The thread started out with Frozen noticing similarities with his footage and a decade old footage he found. Why doesn't anyone check the footage out before blurting out their opinion? The simple fact that the decade old footage shows more or less exactly the same crafts (whatever they are), but at a slant (5º or so), hovering next to each other, not moving, should be enough to prove most of you debunkers wrong.

Look at the video, comment it. I'm still not saying these could be any other conventional aircraft, like helicopters, just that defcon5s relentless bashing of Frozen is uncalled for, no matter how much experience he has in this field.

Originally posted by Drexon
Look at the video, comment it. I'm still not saying these could be any other conventional aircraft, like helicopters, just that defcon5s relentless bashing of Frozen is uncalled for, no matter how much experience he has in this field.

If what defcon5 is posting is bashing, I would hate to see some real bashing on ATS. He is simply stating his opinion, based on his experience. His posts are very well thought out and stated. He doesn't agree with your ideas, but that doesn't mean he is wrong, or is bashing anyone. Would you just want everyone to come on here and agree with everything? How much fun would that be?

I have a view of our local international airport from where I live, and the lights in the video are common around here. Nothing but planes lining up for a landing IMO.

As for hovering. If a plane that is far away is coming straight at you, it will look like it's hovering, especially at night when all you have are lights to go by.

Ya, the there is a airport Near Cleveland that you mentioned, that is around a half our drive west from where I filmed these, go to Google maps and type in "Eastlake Ohio", that is where I filmed them.

They were heading "AWAY" from that closest airport heading East, they were very pretty close as well.

Having lived all of my life in Ohio and spending nearly all of my college years at the flats in Cleveland I can't believe people think these are real UFO's, but then again, it really doesn't shock me that much either. You can see these lights all day and all night over Lake Erie because they are airplanes. Everything looks strange and distorted on and over that lake at night. The lake itself always creeped me out. Defcon5 is however right on this one.

Originally posted by yeti101
totally agree with defcon5 that they are planes.

I also beleive frozenthought is a hoaxster. why does he suddenly become disinterested in the object that goes off to the left? i guess becuase it becomes clear its a plane landing.

case closed: aeroplanes landing

Because object #2 was coming closer at that time?