National I.D. Card....will you accept it?

Originally posted by Johnmike
So WHAT exactly will this do to hinder our freedoms?

Couldn't agree more...

Did you guys watch the video???????

From the video:

"Swastika shaped RFID chip"...hahahhahaa...get outta here, the nazi's are back, but in different colors.

"This is much worse than STALIN's form of anti-freedom". This is completely ridiculous.

This tv channel is certainly "out there". (dont know if you noticed the name of the channel)

Drama queens. I have no problem with an ID card, I have nothing to hide, I dont care who klnows what I am doing and when. If the government are trying to control, fine - its up to me whether I do or do not do something and the whole government issue is way down the list of my priorities - behind things like spending time with my kids, watching my favourite program etc.

As soon as these are out I bet the same people will find a shape somewhere on these cards that looks like a reptiles scale or grey skin etc. All ways the same ott drama and hype, all ways the same 'I will never give in to them' rubbish - and yet you know you will. The guys in the video have def smoked to much skunk and stared in the miorror for too long.

Quackmaster - good to see some more of the ginger brethren sticking up for themselves!

Those guys in the video are very paranoid if you ask me and taking it a bit far, but the issue is still valid. Maybe we are all reading too much into this. As Hvitserk describes the ID cards in his country (thanks for the info Hvitserk) maybe they are really not that bad? It seems like more of a formality than a necessity for him - he didn;t even know where it was to hand!

However, I think the UK and US have much grander plans in mind for how they are going to use theirs.

Again, if we were to resist, never mind the why, how would we go about this in a way that would actually make a difference? Violent protest, apart from the obvious moral consequences, would only serve to prove their point about security etc., and yet normal peaceful means seem to be falling on deaf ears.

Though I hate to say it, I can't see how we are going to avoid it. Any solid ideas? Does anyone know if there are likely to be any legal loopholes that dissenters could exploit, for example?

P.S. Hvitserk - if you declare war on alcohol, don't count on me for support!

It's no big deal carrying an id card as such. I carry my driving licence in my wallet which is a simple form of ID.

The only problem i could see is if the time comes when you card must be handed over every time you buy any item. For example.

Sorry we cant sell you this burger you have exceeded your daily burger limit!

Sorry you cant drive your car anymore you have exceded your milage limit!

Thats where this is going, not in the next 10 years but maybe in the next 100.

Originally posted by Burginthorn
Australia is also getting the National ID Card planned for roll out by 2010

/hmezb

Only difference being they aint so bold to call it an ID Card, as Australians rejected the Govts last attempts, so its been re-badged as the "smart card"
Without your smart card you wont be able to get health and welfare services such as Medicare and Social Security benefits.

"People will be able to register for the card from the beginning of 2008 and it will be phased in over two years.

The card will also be used to check identities for immigration and security purposes and to crack down on fraud. Its embedded computer chip will include a photograph, number, signature, date of birth and address.

From 2010 people will not be able to receive government health and welfare payments without a card."

Looks like this ID card business is being rolled out across many countries. Who's behind it all?

Once every country has a national database linked to a card, it'll make it easier to convert to a global/one world database.

The current forms of ID are not mandatory. A post on the last page said what you need ID for, well i've never needed ID when talking to the police, or buying beer or going into a club, i don't get loans and in fact I never even needed ID to get a job.

Like I said the problem isn't nessiseraly the card its self its the rest of the system, its designed to track you life, it cant stop crimes, it cant stop terrorism why would anyone think otherwise its only a piece of plastic. It also wont stop illegal immigration, why? because this sort of stuff is so easily faked its unbelievable.

A few thousand pounds and I can set myself up with an entire new life, a little bit more and I wouldn't need any fake identification it would be the real stuff.

Take a look into the past at WWII. Almost all countries had an ID card then to help prevent enemy spies etc. moving around in the country and to restrict movement of the population, minority groups etc. Did it actually stop spies entering and working on Germany? Not a chance, it only provided a little bit of a challenge while they forged or acquired the genuine documents, even then the ID card's primary role was to control and track the civilian population.

I personally have no problem with a national ID card, even if it were used to monitor people in any way, i have absolutely nothing to hide, if the government really wants to spend the time and money knowing that i go back and forth from uni and work every day and occasionaly go to the pub, good for them.

That being said i dont think i have to worry about a national ID card since that australian governments proposal never made it through the senate i believe, the idea is that the actual benefits an ID Card system could just as easily be gained through more efficient handling of data between government departments and better handling of national databases to make identifying people easier instead of forcing an ID card system which would be more expensive to implement and enforce.

Although i'm sure a national ID Card system will no doubt become an eventual neccessity, especially if the U.S. and U.K. successfully implement it.


EDIT:

Originally posted by Burginthorn
Australia is also getting the National ID Card planned for roll out by 2010

/hmezb

I was also under the impression that the smartcard idea was also rejected a few months ago? I guess it will depend on the results of the next federal election.

EDIT AGAIN: well turns out i was wrong, we are getting a smart card in 2010, cool. I wonder if this will end up actually happening if the labour party do well at the next elections, or if the greens somehow get a say in the matter.

It'll be interesting to see how they try and sell this to the public.

[edit on 1/2/2007 by SpaceCalamari]

They WANT to eventually insert a computer chip into all of us. I don't mind if its like a drivers license for a nation data base. They can find all the info that will be on that now it just takes longer. That would be good to help stop Petifiles who jump from state to state, etc. But I would really like to have a little privacy please. Why is the government always trying to turn this place into some futuristic movie?

Originally posted by Royal76
Why is the government always trying to turn this place into some futuristic movie?

And yet i still dont have a flying car, holograms, virtual reality and the weather predictions are still always wrong.

A generation is all they need - One day we will all happily be implanted with microchips, and our every move will be monitored. The technology exists; the only barrier is society's resistance to the loss of privacy

Excellent article - A must read!

www.thestar.com...
www.informationliberation.com...

What might Hitler, Mao or Milosevic have accomplished if their citizens were chipped, coded, and remotely monitored?

This is the typical reply from someone who supports ID cards & chip implants:

Implants are a great Idea..

I'm all for it. The only people who should be scared of getting implants are people who don't want others to know what they are up to. People like theives, con artists, rapists, murderers, lawyers, child molesters, drug dealers.

People who obey the law and are your normal average person should have nothing at all to fear of the day when we are all tagged. I personaly don't care if big brother knows where I went to lunch or how long I spend in a bathroom. And 'Im sure Big Brother couldn't care less either..
But I do agree that such things will most likely not happen as we are all protected by human rights.. I think............

What this person obviously doesn't realise like many others, is that the warmongers, theives, con artists, rapists, murderers, lawyers, child molesters, drug dealers etc are our governments. If a whole society gives in to ID cards & chip implants, then any power you might of had to protect your civil liberties and freedoms is gone. Surely everyone can see that. Ever heard of Nazisim.

www.foylenet.org...

For that is the type of society that awaits us all, if we give in to these criminals that currently govern us.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

It is we the people who have the power, hence the reason why governments fear us and want to control us and it's important that we never give away that power. The day we do is the day we lose our freedom.

I wont be signing up for an ID card or chip implant. The government can take them and shove them where the sun dont shine. Geez like I would ever trust Judas Blair and New labour. The only thing that worries me are the dumbed down sheep who do!

Originally posted by kindred
the warmongers, theives, con artists, rapists, murderers, lawyers, child molesters, drug dealers etc are our governments

As a lawyer and a member of a political party, i feel i should let you in on a little secret. There is no grand conspiracy to take away your rights, and the government doesnt consist of rapists, murders and drug dealers.

The problem lies more in easy solutions, the government can throw money at easy solutions like ID Cards, by introducing such systems they are effectively making it appear they are in control and that they are addressing societies ills while also making it "someone elses problem", in reality the cost, manpower and infrastructure required for an ID card to be anything more than a glorified drivers licence would be so tremendous. The government cant even make the trains run on time, or do anything other than petty arguing and grabs for power within the party.

The government are just people like you and me, but they get payed more, people want money, power, control and they dont want to share which is what politics is all about, this is why i dont believe in a new world order, because it implies a secret well organised conspiracy, too many people have too much power at stake to let anyone else threaten that.

What im saying is that the ID card isnt some grand conspiracy to take away your rights, it's just a poor easy solution to a problem instead of actually addressing that something is intrinsically rotten in our society.

Originally posted by Quackmaster
Drama queens. I have no problem with an ID card, I have nothing to hide, I dont care who klnows what I am doing and when. If the government are trying to control, fine - its up to me whether I do or do not do something and the whole government issue is way down the list of my priorities - behind things like spending time with my kids, watching my favourite program etc.

It is not even about whether or not you have anything to hide, it is the fact that they are implementing even more measures to control you. It saddens me that there are people out there like you with children and your not even the least bit worried about "there" future under such tyrannical rule. I hope you continue to have fun watching your t.v. set as the oppressive machine continues it's forward advances!

Space Calamari wrote:

What im saying is that the ID card isnt some grand conspiracy to take away your rights, it's just a poor easy solution to a problem instead of actually addressing that something is intrinsically rotten in our society.

That something rotten in our society has a name. It's called New Labour and it's deluded leader is called Tony Blair.

Yes! I actually do have rights as you pointed out. So therefore I must have a choice when it comes to ID cards and chip implants - In that case I will be saying no thanks.

There is nothing to be gained or benefited from the introduction of ID cards or chip implants and the Labour government are so incompetent that they couldn't organise a p*** up in a brewery, let alone run an effective secure national database & ID card scheme. Hence there is no reason for me whatsoever to put my trust and confidential information in there hands.

Common sense prevails! Say no!

What do you think that bar code strip is for on your drivers license?

As many have said before me, they already know where you are and what you're doing. This card is a way to consolidate already existing identifiers.

Do I like it? No.
Will I need medical care or to drive or travel, etc…sometime in the future? Yes.
Will I take this card? I just don’t know at this time.

The sad truth is, most will take it without question.

Those that scoff at the Bible had better look again.


[edit on 1-2-2007 by jbondo]

I think the video is over exaggerated, and includes misleading information.

Originally posted by Funkydung
no buying or selling without it.

Are you implying that they are totally going to rid of "cash and change"?

That will never happen.

Are you implying all vendors will deny sales because they don't have a card?

That will never happen.

Are you implying that I can not sell my belongings to friends without seeing their cards?

That will never happen.

That being said, I would like to finish this post by saying, if you build a gun yourself using available parts, and some machine shop tools, you do not have to register the gun. I have built my very own custom AR-15 using blank parts available in stores. Since the finished gun is manufactured by me, I do not have to register it.

Originally posted by SWAT Life


I think the video is over exaggerated, and includes misleading information.

Originally posted by Funkydung
no buying or selling without it.

Are you implying that they are totally going to rid of "cash and change"?

That will never happen.

Are you implying all vendors will deny sales because they don't have a card?

That will never happen.

Are you implying that I can not sell my belongings to friends without seeing their cards?

That will never happen.

Ever heard of ISO 9000?

I know it like the back of my hand and although I am not paranoid, all indicators point to ISO as being part of a new world order and most likely ties into this somewhere. Although ISO is specifically related to business dealings.

I sit on the fence but I can't deny what I've seen as ISO continues to thrive and build.

Originally posted by jbondo

Ever heard of ISO 9000?

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes and I don't understand what you are claiming. ISO 9000 is just a system to organize businesses. Some businesses don't use ISO 9000 and they loose a lot of money because of their lack of efficiency. ISO 9000 just helps businesses run with standards, or rules. They don't run the business they just give it structure and guidelines to run by. Plus its not mandatory, its optional, when you run a business.

Originally posted by SWAT Life

Originally posted by jbondo

Ever heard of ISO 9000?

en.wikipedia.org...

Yes and I don't understand what you are claiming. ISO 9000 is just a system to organize businesses. Some businesses don't use ISO 9000 and they loose a lot of money because of their lack of efficiency. ISO 9000 just helps businesses run with standards, or rules. They don't run the business they just give it structure and guidelines to run by. Plus its not mandatory, its optional, when you run a business.

ISO is the international organization for standardization

I was a quality manager for 4 years and led my previous company to certification. Most large corporations are ISO and a great deal of mid range and small companies are too. Many companies will not do business with other companies that are not ISO and in fact it's part of being ISO to verify your suppliers. Right now it's up to the companies as to whom they chose to do business with but as ISO evolves and becomes more and more stringent it seems to be leading to a scenario whereby if you are not ISO you won't be able to do business at all. Small steps are happening every year that seem to be leading toward this end. The ISO governing body itself has immense power and a bad audit or two and you can lose your certification. If you do happen to lose it expect to lose money because you will be dropped from many approved supplier lists.

This is obviously a slow transition but with every new standard comes more and more rules (currently 900:2000). I was right in the middle of it for 4 years and it was pretty obvious to me as to where it was going.

Also remember, this is international and not only is it not going away but it is growing rapidly.

Here's another tidbit, if you work at a company that is going ISO and you refuse to be involved, expect not to work there anymore.

Finally, I'm not claiming anything. Just telling you what I see from my experience and providing food for thought.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the new policy of requiring one to possess a passport for EVERYBODY (including the smallest of children) leaving and entering the country that was implemented just recently. Prior to this new policy I know that when I wanted to go to the Bahamas (and a variety of other Caribbean islands) or Mexico all I needed was to show a copy of my birth certificate or even driver's license. I believe this was true if I wanted to go to Canada also, but it's been over 10 years since I've been so my memory is kind of hazy on that one.

The benefit of having ONE type of ID (passport) is obvious - it was mentioned that some 20,000 (yes, 20k!) or so different insitutions/agencies/whatever issued acceptable IDs, and nobody can remember formatting, etc. of that many to the extent they are able to determine whether or not they are fake or not.

I have to agree with the other people - we in the US already have what is essentially a national ID system - our social security #. Every job, school I've ever applied to asked for mine. Same with credit cards, bank accounts, even signing on with a cell-phone carrier. In all three of the universities (2 public, 1 private, in case it makes any difference paranoia- or otherwise) I attended your social security # is automatically your "student ID number" and the first thing they ask when you go to visit an advisor or request any service you'll hear the standard, "what's your soc?" I bet almost everyone knows their SSN by heart but hardly anyone has memorized their bank account # or driver's license #, maybe that's telling.

Maybe a material national ID card (like the passport, SSN examples) is able to be forged, but it's far easier to fake one of the 20,000 types of IDs that the average person probably has no idea what it's supposed to look like - a bar near me has a board behind glass where dozens of fake IDs that had been confiscated are posted and some are so bad it's laughable (at least one has the name of the doggone state misspelled!) Not so easy to pass off when everyone knows that something looks like.

I'd accept a national ID willingly - it'd make things for both myself and the government easier. The fears are overblown in my opinion because like it's been said we're already on the grid - heck, it's likely you had to supply your SSN to the cable provider you use to provide your internet access you're using to read this. My last girlfriend had everything short of her dental records in her purse, it'd kinda be nice to have it all in a tidy little card.

ed: awkward wording fixed

[edit on 1-2-2007 by AlphaHumana]

Originally posted by jjpassow
I am sick and tired of the BS life that we live as so called americans. It is time for our revolution. Are you scared? I am.... I want to be at peace with the global society. I wany the US to be a source of peace with humanity. We are headed towards things where we may not be able to return. I am scared of our future. World War 3 is at hand. How do we stop those who lead us and dont care about us.

What hapens when some other country doesnt want to live in peace and harmony with us? Do you think joining hands and singing Kum By Ya will fix things ?

And what kind of person who calims to want peace and harmony also wants revolution ?