China, it's military capabilities, and chinese nationalists

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posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 06:16 PM
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First off, this is my first post. I am only a college student and not someone who works in the defense field. Sorry if this has any typos, and I'm sorry to the mods if this is off topic somewhat.

As a Chinese American I often find Chinese nationalists boasting all over the internet about their military's capabilities and then hinting at a veiled threat to the US and Taiwan. I often find this funny because realistically China is not an equal militarily and strategically to the US. And this wont be the case for another 20 to 25 years. The reason China is as strong as it is economically and strategically is due to the goodwill of the US. China's economic growth is almost entirely due to the US trade policy of long favoring China in the hopes of promoting economic growth and then democracy. The technology, methods, and instructure of the Chinese economic sectors comes from the US. The products it produces are copied and developed from US products and companies. The main catalyst fueling China's economic growth is the US, just look at Walmart. The reason I state this is not to say that the Chinese people should not be proud of their achievement but not to forget who helped you achieved it. And also many Chinese people do not realize the rate of growth China has experienced is unsustainable due to the simply fact that it came at the cost of total destruction of your environment which in the future will cost your GDP greatly as you will have no choice but to fix it (if it can be). I saw on a documentry on PBS that the deputy head of the Chinese EPA estimates the damage to the country's evironment equates to 15% of the Chinese GDP every year. Also the Chinese countryside is unstable due to the huge political disparity of the recent growth China has experienced. So I'm saying you this is a growth spurt, not permanent.

I am writing this to address Chinese nationalists that boast of China's advances economically and militarily to seek respect for the Chinese nation and its people. As long as China continue to turn a blind eye to its poor and destroy its environment, and saber rattle and use veiled threats the West will never see you as an equal only as a quasi first world/third world country with a despotic government that continue to suppress its people.

Now to the bread and butter,
The Chinese people can continue to make advances and grow but it is not and will not for 20 to 25 years be an equal to the US military, especially in the strategic sense. This is clearly evident if you look on a map and see that coastal China is ringed by US military bases and allys. South Korea, Japan, Okinawa, Philipines, Guam. The Chinese military have no long range strategic reach besides its latest Dong Fong missiles that can finally hit all of the continental US(which it only has few of). The main focus of the Chinese military until recently has been defense, defense for the purpose of Taiwan. To repell any US intervention on a Chinese invasion of Taiwan. Recently the Chinese military has put emphasis on a military focus on more than just Taiwan and especially the Navy to focus on China's shipping lines and regional waters. I will go more into detail later on this issue. But right now China lacks the strategic capability to realistically strike the US except for the few dozen Dong Fong land based ICBMs it possesses. I dont know about their sub fleet and their capabilties. Chinese fighters and bombers lack the range and in the case of their bombers the support capabilities to refuel them without bases over the pacific and I doubt Russia would let Chinese bombers ever fly over their borders to strike at the US from the arctic.

So you may ask whats the point of my post? my point is that to the Chinese nationalists out there its great to be proud of your achievements its another thing to think that China is strategically on an equal footing to the US.




posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 06:30 PM
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Now, Taiwan....this is were it gets interesting.
Every Chinese person should accept that people of Taiwan do not want to be a part of a COMMUNIST China. A minority of them wants to be united with a democractic China. And a majority dont even see themselves as Chinese or having anything to do with China. Many people from Taiwan in the US consider themselves a seperate ethnic group from us(Chinese people). So to say that Taiwan is a part of China is like saying Canada is a part of the US.

On the issue of war with Taiwan is realistically unrealistic. The economy of Taiwan is integral to the economy of the US, South Korea, and Japan. So there is no way any of those countries will sit silently as China invades Taiwan. As the economies would be crippled.

Strategically, unless China can subdue the armed forces of Taiwan within a few hours of an invasion China cannot succeed as the US and maybe Japan would immediately react with a military intervention. The earliest would be within hours, the latest would be a day or so. Simply because of the US military forces in Okinawa and Guam. Realistically those 2 bases are only there to threaten China and protect Taiwan strategically.

So...China cant invade Taiwan without war with the US and crippling the economies of the world and lacks the capability to threaten the US mainland into giving it a better position on Taiwan(let Taiwan be invaded or war).

So while China can continue to advance its military and make friends with unsavory people and sell weapons to them, steal and copy foreign technologies than it cannot buy. Dont be mistaken that China is on a equal footing with the US. Its strategic position is unrealistic. So dont dream that you CAN invade Taiwan or that you could prevent the US from stopping you.

And by the way anti satellite missiles is something the US has had for a while and you cant in one wave destroy all the military satellite that the US possesses while we can do that to you. Xinhua has publicly said that China will not build aircraft carriers. Everyone and anyone can build stealth ships but as long as you dont have the network to support your forces their utterly useless. So brag about the little achievements you make left and right but in the bigger picture there useless unless you can the entire support structure to maximize its lethality. Its like having a one shot rifle and not being able to reload or a scope to see.

I am sorry if this is in the wrong place, I am not targeting any poster, I am not flaming, or trolling or anything. But this is something I felt after viewing countless posts on forums and videos on youtube with people bragging about China's military superiority and then hinting at the US.



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 06:42 PM
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And frankly on the issue of Chinese nationalism I think its sad.
Sad because the Chinese government has educated nationalism into its children as a way to deflect the issues of democracy and rights. After the Tinananmen Square Massacre, the Chinese government realized how much western beliefs and values are influencing the Chinese youth and as a way to deal with that it began to teach patriotism through focusing on the humiliation that China has endured from the west for centuries. As a student when I was in China I was taught how the west (whites) had pillaged and raped China and then the Japanese and that the Chinese people as a race are racially superior to whites and that one day when our nation is strong economically we will strike back at the West as it is our rightful place as the people of longest living civilization on earth to rule the world and replace the US as the world's ruler(Lol).

My point is that Chinese nationalism isnt right, it isn't right in the sense that its a method of diversion and brainwashing the public into rejecting western values. So those Chinese nationalists should really reflect on their society before boasting and using threats to seek respect and recognition. Realize that you are being used and manipulated.

And also often when they brag about the achievements of the Chinese military there is always a sense of IN YOUR FACE AMERICA. A sense that the US has always been threatening China and that the US should tread carefully as now China is your equal. I could be wrong about this...but I just find this funny as I have never seen anyone write HEY CHINA LOOK AT THOSE B-2 BOMBERS WE GOT THAT CAN BOMB YOU AND YOU CANT DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. Or....LOOK AT THE MILITARY BASES WE HAVE ALL AROUND YOUR COUNTRY BOXING YOU IN. US has always been in a superior position strategically, to China, but yet I never seen anyone use this as a threat or boast about it.

But anyway, that was my little rant, on my observations as a Chinese American. Im sure people will poke holes in my argument....



posted on Jan, 18 2007 @ 11:44 PM
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Mr pilotshinjiikaru is a known Troll on the internet and goes by the names USAalltheway USimperialaist, he pretends to be Chinese and post slander everywhere at the same time being modest, to find more of his post go to sinodefenceforum.com

Before you post anymore slander about being "brainwashed" and such, please note this

I am an Australian of Chinese decent, I speak Seven Languages including Four Chinese dialects, I read most local and international newspapers and i have family in all corners of the globe. Your use of calling Chinese Brainwashed is your form of denigrating .Your notion of a stereotypical Chinese is completely ridiculous and this nationalism you seem to indicate Chinese posters display is completely baseless, mind you, your making these accusations without evidence.

Your use of Chinese posters pretending that china and America are somehow equal perplexes me since no one i ever met has said that China even wants to rival America because the Americans are digging themselves to the ground with their military budget. China has no need of a strategic reach and no one has made china out to be a country with the capability the Americans have


The Chinese military have no long range strategic reach besides its latest Dong Fong missiles that can finally hit all of the continental US(which it only has few of)


Why would china need long range "strategic reach"?

But to address your issue of MAD or "finally" having the capability to hit America, here is a previous post

30 DF-5A missiles

Range - 12,000km-14,000km



It was formerly hidden inside caves inside the PRC but now are located inside one the of three PLA Ballistic missile complexs. Some are silo based and some are stored inside the tunnels ready to be launched, preparation time is around two hours for the older DF-5 missiles but the newer DF-5A might be shortened by the use of a new booaster fuel which might have also increase reliabilty. It has also been seen on mible platforms after being spilt into its seperate stages which might have been abandoned since the purpose built mobile DF-31 enter service


15-30 DF-31/A

Range - 8,000km~10,000km (depending on version)



The DF-31 was first seen in 1999 at the parade marking the 50th anniversary of the PRC. Since then there have been a number of these systems entering service, the numbers range from 15-30 systems and considering their production rate, there might be more to come. Extremely mobile and extremely if impossible to detect. These will form the backbone of chinas nuclear force and be include the longer ranged DF-31A version in its current arsenal

??? JL-2

Range - 8,000

The Submarine version of the DF-31, these are supposed to be based on the New Type-094 SSBN which have been rumoured to have entered service already. There have been claimed pictures of it, some of which are extremely clear but nothing is for certain. They might also be placed on the modifed Type-092 SSBN after its lastest update


To destroy chinas first ICBM complex, you would need a total of roughly 300 warheads to damage chinas first ICBM tunnel complex since it is hidden by a mountain as well as its length. There are at least 30,000 miles of underground silo bases, under three mountain ranges in china for the DF-5 and DF-5. This gives chinese forces enough time to re-fuel and lanuch

Mobile missiles are another story and are virtually impossible to destroy. A example of this was the iraqi SCUD lanuchers. The Americans had complete air superioty and special forces in iraq as well as drones and spy satellites yet they found it impossible to locate and destory iraqi SCUD lanuchers.

Now imagine the worlds third biggest country with one of the worlds most diverse landscapes full of mountains and man-made tunnels. Try finding a ICBM lanucher in the interior of china espically tibet and Chengdu with all those moutains. China does have enough missiles to do justice in a nuclear exchange with America whilst America will do more than enough justice to china. But America also has the Russians to worry about and wont use all its nuclear weapons on china. Chinas nuclear force is enough to make a deterrant against the Americans and thus cause a parity between the two countries


Like other known mountain ranges housing underground tunnel networks for China's strategic missiles, the Tai-Hei Mountain Range has many steep cliffs and canyons with large big elevation changes over a short distance between 1,000 and 2,000 meters. So yo u can easily dig tunnel networks with over one kilometer thick earth-cover in mountain ranges.

A typical 500-kiloton nuclear warhead in U.S. or Russian arsenals can `dig' a big hole 70m deep and 300m wide on the ground, and that is more than enough to destroy a missile silo or even an airport. If specially hardened for the earth-penetration purpos e, it may create a huge crater sphere 200 meters in diameter underground. Taken into account of the rupture zone around the crater and the likely penetration depth of warheads, at least three 500-kiloton warheads will have to land on the same spot sequen tially in order to penetrate the 1-kilometer thick earth cover and destroy the tunnel underneath. Even with the monster 20-megeton warhead on Russia's single-warhead SS-18, at least two warheads have to land on the same spot.

Moreover, one would destroy less than 300 meters of a tunnel using three warheads. Assuming the underground tunnel network under the Tai-Hei Mountain Range is only 1,000 kilometer long, one would need to use 10,000 (ten thousand) 500-kiloton warheads in order to make sure the tunnel network is completely destroyed. This is the VERY unlikely case in which you know the exact layout of the entire tunnel network. AND this is just one of several missile sites in China.
Kimsoft.com




In conclusion, china has the capability to make the America or anyone elses use of nuclear weapons un-pleasant if they choose to bomb china. Much has been made on the state of chinas ICBM force of "twenty ageing silo based missiles" without much concern for the deployment of other missiles in the service. Quote and re-quoting FAS has been done and dusted and new accurate figures should be composed.




[edit on 19-1-2007 by chinawhite]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:38 AM
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The economy of Taiwan is integral to the economy of the US, South Korea, and Japan. So there is no way any of those countries will sit silently as China invades Taiwan. As the economies would be crippled.


The Economies of America, South Korea and Japan will be crippled without Taiwan????????????. It would make more sense to have put in China rather than Taiwan.

There goes you only reason why America, Korea, and Japan will somehow step in to help Taiwan in anyway because Taiwan is insignificant to their economies. Going by the logic you have displayed, America, Korea and Japan would help China because China is more significant to their economy



Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaruA minority of them wants to be united with a democractic China. And a majority dont even see themselves as Chinese or aving anything to do with China.


And where to this facts come from?

From the recent pre-election, the Pan-Blue (Pro-mainland) KMT won the VAST majority of the seats and the DPP has a lame duck president. The KMT follows the one-china policy and having won these local elections shows where the majority of people want to go instead of the position your proposing.

- 3+ million Taiwanese visit Mainland China every year
- 1 million Taiwanese are Permanent residents of mainland China
- 10% of the population were born in Mainland China
- The fact that they are massive trading partners as well as all the Taiwanese money in China

So where are these so-called "facts" coming from?


So dont dream that you CAN invade Taiwan or that you could prevent the US from stopping you.


Why dont you stop with the talk and provide some example so we can have a real debate?


Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
As a student when I was in China I was taught how the west (whites) had pillaged and raped China and then the Japanese and that the Chinese people as a race are racially superior to whites and that one day when our nation is strong economically we will strike back at the West as it is our rightful place as the people of longest living civilization on earth to rule the world and replace the US as the world's ruler(Lol).




I bet you cant get a copy of that textbook



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 12:53 AM
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Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
My point is that Chinese nationalism isnt right, it isn't right in the sense that its a method of diversion and brainwashing the public into rejecting western values.


Western values?

You mean drugs, obesity, pornography, gangs and serial killers?, How about consumer culture which leaves many Americans in debt?. The average chinese has more values than the average western BECAUSE of their government.


China's economic growth is almost entirely due to the US trade policy


Or Maybe its due to its own progress and even more important Asian (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong) component as well as the European component. Very big headed of you to credit all of chinas success on America when the progress was brought about by China itself






posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:03 AM
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ya, this thread is basically a propaganda post, intend for causing troubles and hatred.

Please close this thread



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
My point is that Chinese nationalism isnt right, it isn't right in the sense that its a method of diversion and brainwashing the public into rejecting western values.


Western values?

You mean drugs, obesity, pornography, gangs and serial killers?, How about consumer culture which leaves many Americans in debt?. The average chinese has more values than the average western BECAUSE of their government.


"drugs, obesity, pornography, gangs and serial killers"

Show me a place on earth that doesnt have all that?
If you truly beleive that that only pertains to the US then I have some swamp land in Arizona id be willing to sale ya.
Look man I dont know what your beaf with america is but calm the F down. This is just some stupid message board. Its nothing to lose your religion over..

If americas lifestlye is so detrimental to the world society then why is the world considered to be 'Americanizing' itself?

video.google.com...
And WOOT WOOT. Some fine government you have there.
Heres another one.

video.google.com...




China's economic growth is almost entirely due to the US trade policy




Your mad?. You really need to grow up. And dont put much into what other ppl say. Especially at a site like this. I think the original poster has some valid points. Pollution is raping that country. Diseases such as aids are running wild all over china. These are serious problems china must face sooner or later. 700,000,000 dont feel the 'china boom'. (peasants) Contaminated water due to all the pollution.... It goes on.
www.usatoday.com...
archive.wn.com...


Was it not america who brought china into the WTO? So china should be damned thankful that america really pushed for there joining in the WTO. DAMN YOU CLINTON!

And this is just for fun. Warning. In order to watch the video below you must have a SENSE OF HUMOR. Viewer discrestion is advised.
video.google.com...
Chinawhite. If your in china you wont be able to watch the above google videos. Because your government has a 'special' filtered google for its minyans.


And this thread doesnt need to be closed. Not yet anyways. Lets try and keep it civil though, just threw that up there for future reference.







[edit on 023131p://0501am by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 01:57 AM
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Hummm actually this was just my little Rant... as you can see that other dude totally exploded .... funny how he thinks im a troll....especially when I speak sichuan hua and have a very distinct chinese last name. But I figured something like this would happen... that dude cracks me up ... oh Chinese nationalists....

But Chinawhite on the issue of Taiwan I wasn't disputing your facts on Taiwan I was merely saying that the Chinese government propaganda line of Taiwan wants to unite with China is nearly completely a lie. Only people I have ever met from Taiwan that would like to see Taiwan united with China is the elderly who were born in China but fled to Taiwan. My family has met many of them through church and were friends with this elderly couple from my hometown of Chengdu. Just to show you how much people from Taiwan dont feel like their anyway connected to China, people from Taiwan or whos parents are from Taiwan that I have met in the US, my peers, are mostly disguisted to be even considered to be in anyway related to China or being Chinese. They strictly refer to themselves as "Taiwanese" I tell them you dont form a new ethnic group just because of political affiliations. But really their ashamed of China and in anyway seen as related to it.

And my facts are from my personal observations, I remember being in first grade in Chengdu and being shown black and white propaganda movie about fighting japanese in WWII, japanese guys who all had hitler mustaches and then evil americans in Korea. The brave chinese communists would fight off hordes of Japanese and them sacrafice themselves with a grenade.

And heres a little background information, my grandfather was a member of the CCP Chinese Communist Party and held a mid ranking level position in Tibet until he was sent to a labor camp during one of the many purges by Mao Zedong in the late 50s-early 60s. My parents remember the cultural revolution first hand and often tell me about the famines and watching people starve to death.

I know I stated many thing in my post, my post wasnt to troll, Chinawhite trolls by posting Chinese this or Chinese that. Why? Does anyone actually care? No its to boast and almost always when Chinese nationalists boast their making a message about the US and its foreign policies. I mean why would some Iranian make a post about torpedos that Iran possesses?

And I wrote about Western values mainly on a focus on democracy and freedom. My parents immigrated with me because they were disguisted with what they saw after the Tinananmen Square incident. I saw first hand how laws exist on paper but if u have money or connections you can bypass any laws. I watched it in action was my family owned a business and easily bribed their way through anything. In the west this is corruption, in China its a part of society. I write these things because I'm disguisted at people much like yourself who boast about China's military as they want you to but never consider the repression the people of China suffer. As a Chinese American I knew what it was to live in a state of fear, not being able to say what you wanted. Even now my father still comments on how comedians can openly mock Bush on tv while in China even now something like that could get you executed.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:08 AM
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And I was prompted to write this after watching on Public Television a documentry on China called "China: Inside Out". I'm currently studying political science and comparative politics in college and hope one day to be a journalist and write on foreign and domestic policy. So Chinawhite im not the super patriot ignorant american you assumed me to be but by writing what you did you proved your motivations for posting period. And I was right about the propaganda brainwashing because my relatives my age and my peers in China know next to nothing about Tinananmen Square. Even in Chengdu students protested and were violently supressed as my parents observed first hand. And to prove my point if you weren't living in australia and you were in the PRC the simple fact that you accessed this site and I mentioned "democracy" and Tinananmen Square" you would get into trouble with the internet censors.

I'm not writing to insult China or its military prowness, I am Chinese, I just dont hold any affiliations to the Chinese government. You like most in China and even my parents have accepted the Chinese government and live with it and do what they want you to do. Patriotism through nationalism, the Chinese government is playing with fire as we saw 2, 3 years ago with the protests against the Japanese, it spun out of control and the government initally encouraged it quickly supressed it. I dont accept the Chinese values and tradition of loyalty and blind obidience. I accept the western value that government serves the people not the other way around. In that documentry I wrote about they showed everyone from school children to Tibetan monks talking about loyalty to the Chinese Communist Party and not simply loyalty to China.

I'm sure your gonna flame and write about Bush and how evil we are and blah blah blah but that would only serve to prove my point even more. So in reality your the one trolling on this forum. As I wrote nothing to insult you or China, but even the slightest hint of it and you explode and flame and bash. It was merely my assessment as someone who spent 8 years in China as a Chinese citizen and 12 more in the US as an immigrant and recent US citizen.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:26 AM
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pilot. You make some good points. Dont let the above poster/s discourage you. I do think to a degree that there are some 'blind' chinese nationalist out there that only see one way, and thats chinas way.

Just a few months ago chinawhite was making excuses for the chinese governments killing/injuring of tibetans going to see the dali llamma in india.
www.youtube.com...

Just shooting thems like dogs.... Anyways I have noticed over the past few weeks an influx of chinese posters on here on ATS. All proud chinese, who seem to have an inferiority complex.

I by no means hate or dislike the chinese. If anything I feel sorry for them and cant believe some of the 'knuckleheads' who blindly defend a country that supresses them, tells them what to think and what not to think. For instance just look at the scensorship of the internet in china. One example out of many.... Hopefully sometime in the near future the chinese ppl rise up and demand that there government give them the freedom and rights that they deserve.



[edit on 023131p://2801am by semperfoo]

[edit on 023131p://2901am by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:26 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite
Your use of Chinese posters pretending that china and America are somehow equal perplexes me since no one i ever met has said that China even wants to rival America because the Americans are digging themselves to the ground with their military budget. China has no need of a strategic reach and no one has made china out to be a country with the capability the Americans have


I dont know but maybe you are out of touch. I remember from nationalist propaganda as a kid in school in China, my relatives, my family when I was in China, and actions of the Chinese government, the mindset of the people in general, that simply put everyone views America as China's sole strategic threat. I remember being taught through society that the US is the only thing holding China back from its greatness, like I wrote that China is destined to rule the world, to replace the US as the worlds sole superpower. That to longer have the will of other nations imposed on us but for us to impose our will on the world. Not to mention the posture of the Chinese government, take the spy plane incident in 2000, instead of settling it like many western nations would, the Chinese position was to use it for propaganda purpose to embarass and humiliate the US as much as possible. Or the recent anti satellite missile testing, its all posturing and to say that the Chinese government doesnt feel threatened by the US and feel a need to rival the US in military power is being blind to the fact.

Everyone knows that after watching the Gulf War the Chinese military realized how inadequate their military was and embarked on a mission to modernize it. Every chinese person knows that the ultimate goal of China, militarily, strategic, economically, politically is to be on equal footing to the US or surpass it. Talk to nationalists in any Chinese city and they will tell you that China will surpass the US in all those categories soon, that its time for China to dominate the global areana.

And many in the west that arent americans might see America as the source of all evils and that our society is coming to an end or something turn a blind eye to the simple fact that no matter how many countries like China make inroads into the global economy, America is still the world's economic powerhouse. Everything you enjoy in your modern lifestyle is due in some way to the US. I mean sure Bush is running our country to the ground but doesnt mean China's going to replace us anytime soon. Simple fact of the matter is as I tell it to muslims posting Jihad videos on youtube. Those who would relish in our destruction, we can send a 2,000 pound bomb through your window anytime we want to kill you and your family and watch it live on CNN, and theres nothing you can do about it.

Thats the simple fact of the matter, when my family decided to immigrate my father explained what it meant to be American. To be a part of the most powerful country in the world, that the life of an American is worth more then the life of a person from any other country due to the fact that the US will due whatever it has to to protect its citizens. Look at how many they killed 9-11 and look at how many died in Afghanistan and Iraq. I'm not boasting, flaming, trolling, i'm simply stating the realities of the status quo. Rebuking those who say because Bush sucks and Iraq the American civilization is nearing its end in its greatness.

[edit on 19-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]

[edit on 19-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:39 AM
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Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
funny how he thinks im a troll....especially when I speak sichuan hua and have a very distinct chinese last name.


Exploded as in actually answering the points you threw up?. If thats not it then you should have posted this in a Blog if you did not want to be challenged in your views

The definition of a Troll is simple, your fishing for attention. The first you of a troll as a definition relates to Troll fishing and not a Troll which lives under a bridge. It simply means people posting threads which attracts attention and is provocative (bias).

How is that funny?, Do you actually believe what you posted and automatically except it as the truth?. Do i think your Chinese, No, Is there a possibility that you are Chinese, Yes. But being Chinese does not make you post definate nor does saying your Chinese make yourself believable and it accepted that you are one. If i question you more about your last name or whatever you could easily dig up something from someone you know or a book or even on the internet so there is no point questioning you


I was merely saying that the Chinese government propaganda line of Taiwan wants to unite with China is nearly completely a lie.


Propaganda line?

Is this another text book example that you dont have a source to?. People exaggerate the extent of everything to get the story told. I hate to be corny but here is a well used line "Take everything with a pinch of salt". Its almost common knowledge or so that communist have propaganda and that has been played out in many western books and movies that communist let them be russians or chinese are robot and what they say is completely false. This is done in contrast to things taught in American schools to make what someone elses says out of this world and inturn false.

There is no propaganda line about Taiwan wanting to unite with the Mainland and TV in China is almost the same as TV in any Asian country. Soap-operas, advertising and basic news. JUST LIKE ANY OTHER COUNTRY.


Only people I have ever met from Taiwan that would like to see Taiwan united with China is the elderly who were born in China but fled to Taiwan.


Have you ever been to taiwan?



Being Fujianese i have many family members living in Taiwan and have DIRECT connection instead of this "my friends grandmothers sisters etc" connection that you have. I also have FACTS instead of nothing that you presented. Having been to Taiwan makes me go one better


And my facts are from my personal observations


How is anything you just said related to the two quotes below?

- I was taught how the west (whites) had pillaged and raped China and then the Japanese
- Chinese people as a race are racially superior to whites and that one day when our nation is strong economically we will strike back at the West as it is our rightful place as the people of longest living civilization on earth to rule the world and replace the US as the world's ruler(Lol).



My parents remember the cultural revolution first hand and often tell me about the famines and watching people starve to death.


Your post sounds like something you taken off a book. If you want to sound believable provide some evidence instead of small talk, if not im Elvis back from the dead and i have turned pro-chinese for some strange reason


Chinawhite trolls by posting Chinese this or Chinese that. Why? Does anyone actually care? No its to boast and almost always when Chinese nationalists boast their making a message about the US and its foreign policies.


Throwing accusations around does not change anything. Why would I get 5571 hits about a thread on the Chinese Navy if no one cared about it?. You can speak for yourself but dont speak for others who you dont know because making accusations about things you clearly dont have a clue about is embarrassing

www.abovetopsecret.com...



I watched it in action was my family owned a business and easily bribed their way through anything.


The biggest trouble would be getting a American Visa, not about bribbing Chinese officals. And about Corruption, why dont you see the whos who of chinas court cases and see how many people and convicted and punished because of corruption



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:43 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

The economy of Taiwan is integral to the economy of the US, South Korea, and Japan. So there is no way any of those countries will sit silently as China invades Taiwan. As the economies would be crippled.


The Economies of America, South Korea and Japan will be crippled without Taiwan????????????. It would make more sense to have put in China rather than Taiwan.

There goes you only reason why America, Korea, and Japan will somehow step in to help Taiwan in anyway because Taiwan is insignificant to their economies. Going by the logic you have displayed, America, Korea and Japan would help China because China is more significant to their economy



Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaruA minority of them wants to be united with a democractic China. And a majority dont even see themselves as Chinese or aving anything to do with China.


And where to this facts come from?

From the recent pre-election, the Pan-Blue (Pro-mainland) KMT won the VAST majority of the seats and the DPP has a lame duck president. The KMT follows the one-china policy and having won these local elections shows where the majority of people want to go instead of the position your proposing.

- 3+ million Taiwanese visit Mainland China every year
- 1 million Taiwanese are Permanent residents of mainland China
- 10% of the population were born in Mainland China
- The fact that they are massive trading partners as well as all the Taiwanese money in China

So where are these so-called "facts" coming from?


So dont dream that you CAN invade Taiwan or that you could prevent the US from stopping you.


Why dont you stop with the talk and provide some example so we can have a real debate?


Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
As a student when I was in China I was taught how the west (whites) had pillaged and raped China and then the Japanese and that the Chinese people as a race are racially superior to whites and that one day when our nation is strong economically we will strike back at the West as it is our rightful place as the people of longest living civilization on earth to rule the world and replace the US as the world's ruler(Lol).




I bet you cant get a copy of that textbook


I dont need to, you can go to China and see for yourself. You obviously listen to Xinhua too much that China is making all these advances but whats to be peaceful and friendly. I remember reading a defense assessment of future threats Australia will face in regards to its possible decision to buy Joint Strike Fighters. And in the paper the PDF the person wrote that the biggest threat Australia faces is the rising power of China and its asserting its dominance. That China has been actively weakening and countering American policy in southeast asia as it wants to minimize the US's roles in the pacific and has been trying to undermine the military pact that Australia, New Zealand and the US have.

And Japan has always seen China as a strategic threat and so have China seen Japan as one. China has always been proud of its superior military position to Japan and thats way recent Chinese military advances have made Japan nervous and last year sign a closer military arrangement with the US. So Japan would never help China in event of Chinese invasion on Taiwan. In fact quite to the opposite 3 to 4 years ago Japan and Taiwan signed a defense pact or something to the sort after Chinese saber rattling. I know your going to tell me to quote and state my sources but I simply dont have the time to scour the internet for them. But I do read and love to follow on global events. Much of what I wrote about China and Taiwan are based on my personal observations and experiences. Experiences whcih from your arguments you must have not the slightest clue on. So I say goto China and Taiwan and see for yourself and stop believing Xinhua (official Chinese government news)

[edit on 19-1-2007 by pilotshinjiikaru]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:53 AM
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Mr pilotshinjiikaru, please read this part of your post again. You sound like a lunatic, no offense intended.

Thats the simple fact of the matter, when my family decided to immigrate my father explained what it meant to be American. To be a part of the most powerful country in the world, that the life of an American is worth more then the life of a person from any other country due to the fact that the US will due whatever it has to to protect its citizens. Look at how many they killed 9-11 and look at how many died in Afghanistan and Iraq.


take the spy plane incident in 2000, instead of settling it like many western nations would, the Chinese position was to use it for propaganda purpose to embarass and humiliate the US as much as possible


A western nation would have kissed American ass. You should look into the cold war and see what events the Americans have not tried to embarrass and humiliate other countries, or are you going to suggest they did everything in the nicest possible matter?.

Cuban Missile crisis
MiG-25 in Japan
Iran
Syria
All the countries they had to deal with

Even their most important allies
- Japanese (gulf war commitments)
- British (JSF)

All from the top of my head



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 02:57 AM
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Lol well you are so set in your paranoia and belief in what you hear from Xinhua its not even funny. Im actually amazed someone who grew up in the West can have such a view of everything. But it doesnt matter...oh and by the way people in this forum in reality dont care about your posts boasting of chinese military prowness. Its quite simple why would you do it on a english speaking forum? why not a chinese forum? If I were to post in a Chinese forum about American B-2s and Seawolf class subs I would almost 100% guarnteed to be flamed as I would be asking for it. You post what you post for nationalism and pride, and you do it in an english speaking forum to incite and instigate. Why would people post Jihad videos of IED attacks from Iraq on youtube? And then write "God bless Allah and the mujahadeen". You can be paranoid all you want and be on your high horse because you spend so much time making sure the world knows every little advance China's military has made. Like I said its obvious you do what you do to boast and you choose this venue to incite a reaction. To say HA! LOOK AT US AND HOW MIGHTY WE ARE!

But I really dont feel like getting into an argument with you, I'm not a researcher i'm more of an analyst I look at the bigger picture, I dont crawl through the internet looking for things to say HA! with. Anyone who reads this can see, you misinterpet everything I right and then attack me. I will later make a thread to help people understand the Chinese mindset and views of the West. And I'm sure you can flame me there somemore and then right how China is peaceful and then boast about some new aircraft carrier their going to build.



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 03:07 AM
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Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
And to prove my point if you weren't living in australia and you were in the PRC the simple fact that you accessed this site and I mentioned "democracy" and Tinananmen Square" you would get into trouble with the internet censors.


You do realise that there is quite a large number of people posting from china here. Please dont start with the random accusations and hope you hit gold. Why dont you post real things instead of repeating much over-used post and ideas from the internet?. You have just registered here and have started to post speculation and made assumptions about this forum.

What is up with calling people "brainwashed"?. Who is the actual one brainwashed here.? If your going to show the most extremes of people and governments I will Point to the Extremes of democracy and racial tensions in America. You dont think groups in America arent like that. If your going to look at all the bad and then judgments then I will do also


It was merely my assessment as someone who spent 8 years in China as a Chinese citizen and 12 more in the US as an immigrant and recent US citizen.


If it was a self assessment you should have said "MY OPINION", MY EXPERIENCE". You did not do this and made stereotypical and generalized comments about your personal experience living in China



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 03:11 AM
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Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
I dont need to, you can go to China and see for yourself.


Im in China already


More random accusations?. Now, why dont you go to china instead of watching documentries?




posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 03:14 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

The biggest trouble would be getting a American Visa, not about bribbing Chinese officals. And about Corruption, why dont you see the whos who of chinas court cases and see how many people and convicted and punished because of corruption


C'MON. thats only a shmere tactic to appease western investors.

If anything Chinese corruption has gotten worse over the past couple years.

www.china.org.cn...

www.globalpolicy.org...

www.smh.com.au...


[edit on 033131p://2501am by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 19 2007 @ 03:16 AM
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Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by pilotshinjiikaru
I dont need to, you can go to China and see for yourself.


Im in China already






Interesting. What province are you in?





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