The myth of successful armed resistance in the US in case of martial law

i agree with the course of trying to do something before its to late. but it very well may be to late already. im not trying to be an alarmist, but the pieces have been set.

in regards to rallying, im not sure if it would do much go. this rally needs a strong backing for it to work. the kids got their xbox/ps, the adults got their porn. how are we to pull them away from their vices?? it must be a cohesive gathering or it will fail.

unfortunately the administration is in complete denial on what the people want. our voice will echo through deaf ears.

our last hope(should martial law take) is firearms or some form of aggressive resistance. its the only avenue left that they cant interfere with. it seems theyve engineered it to be this way, fight the hardest fight in human history or give up.

To Damocles:
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." That quote was by Isaac Asimov, a science fiction writer. Now where's my virtual cookie!

First of all, we aren't free and never were, but in the case that what few freedoms we still have are taken away, we won't do anything. I'm not a historian, but I know that our freedoms have been slowly taken away for the last hundred years. We created laws banning drug use so we can screw the blacks and latinos. We then have to give part of our paycheck to the government. Next, we raise the drinking age. The government pecks away at our freedoms and we don't even ask why. When somebody finally realizes we are getting a raw deal, they are called a terrorist. Everbody thought Timothy McVeigh was just some madman without bothering to find out why he bombed the Oklahoma City Building. The people in this country want a free market and the government to stay out of their personal lives, but they also want the government's help and until we choose freedom we will continue to be prisoners.

Back to the original post. I've been contemplating, twisting around, deciphering, and scratching my head towards your threat title.

You state that a successful armed resistance in the US in case of Martial Law is but a myth.

You have made it sound like there won't be enough people that would be willing to stand against a Martial Law scenario.

And you've thrown out a lot of good information, however not to support your claim. You state there's a lot of gun owners in the US, and not enough to successfully resist Martial Law? Let's look at some more numbers.


There are actually 1,381,401 active duty military personnel as of June, 2006.

There are 300,983,029 people in the United States of America as of 17:40:00 Jan. 16, 2007.


In 1994 (sorry, finding current numbers was a bit difficult) there were 44 million Americans which owned 192 million firearms, 65 million of which were handguns. Although there were enough guns to have provided every U.S. adult with one, only 25 percent of adults actually owned firearms; 74 percent of gun owners possessed two or more. source

Let's stay with the 25% figure, agreed?

*= approx.
Current US Population = 300,000,000*
Current Gun Owners = 75,000,000*(adults that own guns) - (41,000,000 adults owned more that one firearm)


Statistically speaking... that would make the ratio of Gun wielding American's to US Military personnel about* 50:1


Now, let's even knock off another 25% of the American gun owners... we'll even spare out enough to make up the active duty military, and then some.

Current US Population = 225,000,000
Current Gun Owners = 5,625,000

That would make the ratio of gun wielding American's to US Military personnel about* 4:1



Now, we would have to have such a dramatic swing in the fielding of citizens that did not want to protect their freedoms to even remotely come close to a fair fight. The government knows this. The government knows full well that there is plenty of American citizens that have been in the military, received the same training as the active duty personnel, gotten out, and would vow to fight tooth and nail to preserve the American freedoms.



Why don't you crunch those numbers for a while and contemplate as to why the government to this day has not remotely attempted to take over this nation, from it's rightful owners... the Constitutionally protected American Citizens.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
You don't pay with your driver license, you're not obligated by law to have a driver license if you don't own a car, there's no tracking chip in your driver license, you don't need it to work, ect...

First yep it is actualy an offense to not carry a form of legal identification. You can actualy be detained for not having an ID.

And try and get a job without a form of ID, IE Social Security Card. State ID. It is possible but you realy don't want that job either.

- As far as fighting...your right guns wont do.

That was my point, the guns won't save you, you need to fight with your ideas before it gets violent or it will be very costly in terms of lives.

And figure out a way to fight a war without a body count and you will be a world hero.

Infoholic, nice big numbers there but needed more thought, eg. yes there are circa. 300,000,000 people in the USA but not all of them are adults!

I'm not going to argue anymore with ignorance! If you wanna believe the common citizen will fight to the death, then so be it! just dont be too surprised that when it does happen your more likely going to be being shot at by your neighbor because he wants your food stores!!!

Here's a little scenario I had fun writing

Take a medium town for example 9 square miles with 20 four man teams patroling 0.5 square mile sectors in the town anybody seen walking the streets after 6pm will be shot on sight...

Your in your home, average family guy, sitting with your family. You hear the sound of the APC rolling down your street, you know if you go outside you will be shot at probably killed! but its ok you've got that 9mm under your bed that you keep incase anyone tries to burgle your home. So you go out side let off a few rounds that aimlessly bounce off the APC a couple of your buddies see you and also come out into the street with their 9mm pistols, their rounds are also bouncing off the APC. The vehicles floodlights are put on full beam, you and your buddies stand helplessly blinded by the light, like dear on the freeway. Then the thudding sound of the .50cal rips throught the air, you and your buddies are lying dead in the street, your wives and children are staring out of the window crying, sobbing...

In another sector of town there is an ex military general, he has studied the pattern in which the APC's patrol the streets and believes he can plan an ambush. He has managed to muster 50 men together who are brave enough to attack tonights patroll he has also been able to aqquire some M16's and Grenades. The patrol roles down his street, the general has got his band of men to hide in bushes in their gardens wait until the APC has driven past and attack it from behind, with the element of surprise they could manage it. The APC is getting close to where to men are hiding, inside the APC the onboard thermal imaging system spots 50 bodies lurking nearby, the crew ask for aerial support. Once the APC has reached a certain point the men come out of the shadows and attack the APC unaware that the patrol already knew that they were there. One man throws the grenade and it explodes, lucky hit the APC's track is damaged it cant move. The crew batten down the hatches realises that they could be in real trouble, the civilians are firing round after round at the APC but they aren't causing damage, one man throws a petrol bomb over the vehicle which explodes in a huge fire ball, the men cheer thinking they have won this battle. But over their cheers they can hear the whirring of an Apache's rotor blades its too late, the helicoptor cuts the mob down with its canon all 50 men including the inspirational ex general are dead. Their wives and children look from the window and are crying, why?

Why did these men die, because they were proud american men with guns.

After these failed attempts by resistance fighters news spreads quickly of the deaths of these proud american men with guns. The whole town is now in a hightened state of fear as they have seen the fate of those that have stood up the new regime. many now see the only option is to comply.

...

If you think American citizens are heavily armed, go to Iraq! there you can buy a functioning AK47 at a market for 5$!!! Most men already own a firearm. Strange how the Iraqies haven't managed to wipe out the coalition forces yet, isn't it. The only way Iraqies are getting an upper hand is becuse they also have easy access to RPG's and high explosives, I know your not about to tell me that most American households have those lying under the bed!!!

I can't believe you have the stones to throw out the word ignorance.
If you think the full might of the american military will come down on its own citizens you are sadly mistaken.
I served. 26 million others have served. In case you can't reason this out that means 26 million others have been through at least...AT LEAST...basic training. It doesn't take a genius to do the math. 26 million ,granted potentially, vs 1.4 million. Kid thats 26 million that took the oath to uphold and defend the constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic. Many of us still believe in that oath. Many of us that served had friends or family wounded or killed in action for our freedoms. Let that sink in for a moment. They died for our rights. I understand that across the pond you don't have the same freedoms and rights that we do, but if someone you knew, served with, or were related to who died to secure or preserve that right you might take it personally.

When I seved I can honestly say I never met anyone I thought capable of shooting at american civillians. No matter what the situation. I doubt things have changed that much in the services.

[edit on 16/1/2007 by shooterbrody]

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
And I do wish Americans would stop going on about how heavily armed they are! So what what if you've got 10, 15, 20 or 500 million with guns!!! If martial law was announced this evening who's going magically organise all these civilians with guns into regiments of effective freedom fighters! that isn't going to happen! the most you get is some people firing potshots with his 9mm pistol at the APC's filled with 4/5 trained personell roaming the streets and that case the person firing will be shot and killed with a fully automatic M16 or .50cal

You severely underestimate this country. First off, how many soldiers do you think will actually still fight when they know the constitution and bill of rights are null and void? How many will fight knowing their Fathers, Mothers and children are being arrested in droves? How many soldiers will kill innocent Americans just because they were told to? I for one will consider my contract breached once the piece of paper I swore to protect and uphold is no more.

9Mils?? Come on...we are a lot better armed than that! And once again...who exactly will be driving those APC's when most of the military deserts?

I for one will not stand for my rights to be taken away. If martial law comes, then I feel really, really bad for the law enforecement/military officials that try to enforce it...

Iraq is a poor example, most of the guns come from the Army being dismissed and the caches of arms that were over run. Of course, people are going to get their hands on any gun with the Chaos going on in Iraq.

Many Americans have unregistered guns and buy ammo with cash!

Iraq had few weapons in common citizens during Saddam, it was only after the invasion that the freedom of gun ownership flourished!

Try again! Americans are not Iraqis! On the other head, the Iraqi's are fighting the invaders in their minds, just like we fought the British!

Shooterbrody,

We are talking about martial law here!!!

If something happened that allowed the government to initiate martial law, who's job is it to uphold marshall law, errrrrr?????

yep, thats right, THE ARMY!

If marshall law is in place then anyone breaking the law will treated as a terrorist under the patriot act.

The Army, as you said, swore to protect against enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC

a domestic terrorist is still a terrorist especially under the patriot act!!!

My last 2pence this is getting boring

Kid a little more education is due here. Take some time and research lawful and unlawful orders. I don't care what the situation is martial law, natural disaster, or whatever; just about every person in the military is capable of discerning between the two. Engaging U.S. citizens will not be taken as a lawful order.

Aside from the veterans how well do you think the crips,bloods,hells angels, or mafia would take to marshall law?

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

The Army, as you said, swore to protect against enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC

a domestic terrorist is still a terrorist especially under the patriot act!!!

well at least you got that right. but tell me, what will happen when the guys in that apc, or the guys piloting that apache decide after examining their own concience that the administration is the domestic threat? we're not automatons. ill worry that your 'fun little scneario' has any glimmer of reality when teh flesh and blood soldier is replaced with a robot. then i may worry.

oh, and while i dont have any rpg's or HE under my bed...guess what some of my training was? ill give you a hint, the term unconventional warfare with improvised munitions is applicable. think im the only one? think again.

My last 2pence this is getting boring

i can imagine so

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Infoholic, nice big numbers there but needed more thought, eg. yes there are circa. 300,000,000 people in the USA but not all of them are adults!

Well, for starters...

300,000,000 people minus the 75,000,000 "adults" as noted in my post... and you want me to put more thought into it?


I'm fairly certain the other 225,000,000 people can and probably do account for the kids, ordinary citizens that won't fight, the cowardly citizens that will shoot you in the back to get your store, the currently active military, the old decrepit retiree, and the illiterate dee dee dee's that couldn't shoot a gun if someone painted a huge picture on the side of a barn.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
I'm not going to argue anymore with ignorance! If you wanna believe the common citizen will fight to the death, then so be it! just dont be too surprised that when it does happen your more likely going to be being shot at by your neighbor because he wants your food stores!!!

That's good, because you're not doing so great over there in your corner.

I am a common citizen. And yes, I would fight to the death to protect, not only my freedoms, but the freedoms of the creep next door shooting at me so that he can ransack my store, and if you were to become a US citizen, I'd fight for your rights so that you may continue to spout off about something you have no clue about. I'll leave that up to you to figure out what it might be.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Here's a little scenario I had fun writing

Take a medium town for example 9 square miles with 20 four man teams patroling 0.5 square mile sectors in the town anybody seen walking the streets after 6pm will be shot on sight...

Your in your home, average family guy, sitting with your family. You hear the sound of the APC rolling down your street, you know if you go outside you will be shot at probably killed! but its ok you've got that 9mm under your bed that you keep incase anyone tries to burgle your home. So you go out side let off a few rounds that aimlessly bounce off the APC a couple of your buddies see you and also come out into the street with their 9mm pistols, their rounds are also bouncing off the APC. The vehicles floodlights are put on full beam, you and your buddies stand helplessly blinded by the light, like dear on the freeway. Then the thudding sound of the .50cal rips throught the air, you and your buddies are lying dead in the street, your wives and children are staring out of the window crying, sobbing...

In another sector of town there is an ex military general, he has studied the pattern in which the APC's patrol the streets and believes he can plan an ambush. He has managed to muster 50 men together who are brave enough to attack tonights patroll he has also been able to aqquire some M16's and Grenades. The patrol roles down his street, the general has got his band of men to hide in bushes in their gardens wait until the APC has driven past and attack it from behind, with the element of surprise they could manage it. The APC is getting close to where to men are hiding, inside the APC the onboard thermal imaging system spots 50 bodies lurking nearby, the crew ask for aerial support. Once the APC has reached a certain point the men come out of the shadows and attack the APC unaware that the patrol already knew that they were there. One man throws the grenade and it explodes, lucky hit the APC's track is damaged it cant move. The crew batten down the hatches realises that they could be in real trouble, the civilians are firing round after round at the APC but they aren't causing damage, one man throws a petrol bomb over the vehicle which explodes in a huge fire ball, the men cheer thinking they have won this battle. But over their cheers they can hear the whirring of an Apache's rotor blades its too late, the helicoptor cuts the mob down with its canon all 50 men including the inspirational ex general are dead. Their wives and children look from the window and are crying, why?

Why did these men die, because they were proud american men with guns.

After these failed attempts by resistance fighters news spreads quickly of the deaths of these proud american men with guns. The whole town is now in a hightened state of fear as they have seen the fate of those that have stood up the new regime. many now see the only option is to comply.

I think you've watched Terminator a few too many times. The retard that thinks he can take out an APC with a 9mm... I think we can safely figure him into that remaining 225,000,000 that couldn't decipher the code on the barn.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
If you think American citizens are heavily armed, go to Iraq! there you can buy a functioning AK47 at a market for 5$!!! Most men already own a firearm. Strange how the Iraqies haven't managed to wipe out the coalition forces yet, isn't it. The only way Iraqies are getting an upper hand is becuse they also have easy access to RPG's and high explosives, I know your not about to tell me that most American households have those lying under the bed!!!

Do you know what Iraq has that we don't? Lots and lots of sand.


Citizens of the United States are just as patriotic as the Iraqi militiamen, which just so happen to be a band of patriotic citizens as well.

American's being armed? Heavily armed, maybe not everyone, but armed none the less.

Get the statistics, Jimbo... not every Iraqi citizen has a RPG. Hell, 80% of them are still out throwing rocks. Great comparison.



NEXT!!!

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Shooterbrody,

The Army, as you said, swore to protect against enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC

a domestic terrorist is still a terrorist especially under the patriot act!!!

My last 2pence this is getting boring

I sincerely apologize if I am stepping on your toes, shooter, but I just can't leave this alone.

Jim,

Can you not believe, that a "domestic" terrorist may actually find themselves employed by the American populous as the president? The "domestics" of this country do not stop at the white house lawn. Check out the US Constitution. It state you "must be a US citizen, 35 yrs old, living here for a minimum of 14 years to make the qualifications of the presidential office". Pay close attention to the word "citizen". He's one of us, too. Don't point the finger unless you know for sure where that finger is pointing.


Please don't... I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.

Ummm.... what's this by the way?

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Hey Melbourne,

This thread could seriously use some of your expertise mate:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

source

Calling in the calvary, are we?

[edit on 1/16/2007 by Infoholic]

Oh dear I do seem to be treading on a few nerves here, sorry I cant resist!

This is how your fellow man reacts after a serious natural disaster

Quote:
in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, looting, violence, and other criminal activity became serious problems. With most of the attention of the authorities focused on rescue efforts, the security in New Orleans degraded quickly. By August 30, looting had spread throughout the city, often in broad daylight and in the presence of police officers. "The looting is out of control. The French Quarter has been attacked," City Councilwoman Jackie Clarkson said. "We're using exhausted, scarce police to control looting when they should be used for search and rescue while we still have people on rooftops."
ncapacitated by the breakdown of transportation and communication, as well as overwhelmed in terms of numbers, police officers could do little to stop crime, and shopkeepers who remained behind were left to defend their property alone. Looters included gangs of armed gunmen, and gunfire was heard in parts of the city. Along with violent, armed robbery of non-essential valuable goods, many incidents were of residents simply gathering food, water and other essential commodities from unstaffed grocery stores. There were also reports of looting by some police officers. There was also significant looting reported continually in areas of the city with few, if any permanent residents, such as the Lakeview, Gentilly, and the Midcity regions.

"Sniper fire" was also reported throughout the city, targeted at rescue helicopters, relief workers, and police officers. One of the possibilities of the sniper fire was possibly resistance to relocation or evacuation.

One report of violence involved police shooting six people on the Danziger Bridge, which carries the Chef Menteur Highway across the industrial canal, who were reportedly attacking contractors of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers involved in the 17th Street Canal repair.

Looting and violence was also hampering efforts to evacuate the Tulane University medical center, as well. Looters in boats with guns had attempted to break into the hospital but were repelled by hospital staff. "If we don't have the federal presence in New Orleans tonight at dark, it will no longer be safe to be there, hospital or no hospital," Acadian Ambulance Services C.E.O. Richard Zuschlag told CNN. Several news sources reported instances of fighting, theft, rape, and even murder in the Superdome and other refuge centers.

Additional acts of unrest occurred following the storm, particularly with the New Orleans Police Department. In the aftermath, a tourist asked a police officer for assistance, and got the response, "Go to hell, it's every man for himself." Also, many New Orleans police officers deserted the city in the days before the storm, many of them escaping in their department-owned patrol cars. This added to the chaos by stretching law enforcement thin. Additionally, there were confirmed cases of police officers stealing vehicles from the Sewell Cadillac car dealership, further adding to the confusion. Several NOPD officers were arrested weeks after Katrina in stolen vehicles"

Source: Wikipedia

Sure must make ya proud

SEE THE TRUTH NOT THE FAIRYTALE

Nice shot, Jimmy.


But, one question...


For Christ's sake, what does the events of Katrina have to do with Martial Law?

Yay another euro that wants to flame the U.S.
point taken jimmy

Infoholic,
It shows the mentality of persons under distress, that their priorities are looking after themselves.

If the same scenario was to happen in the UK, Germany, France I would be saying the same things. People living in the western world tend to "get with the programm" Standing up to the authorities is something we have been conditioned not to do!

Would you not agree that the patriot act destroyed alot of freedoms you hold dear, freedoms that used to be protected. Where were the passionate average American citizens then? you all let bush do this to you! The one thing people in Europe as a whole will never understand is how bush got a second term.

Also for those who have lost track of the arguement, read to original authors post it makes excellent reading.

P.S I asked melbourne to maybe get involved because this topic has a serious american bias to it and he (from reading his posts, I dont actually know the guy) has alot of interesting things to say.


[edit on 16/1/07 by Jimmy1880]

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Infoholic,
It shows the mentality of persons under distress, that their priorities are looking after themselves.

Who might you be referring to? I've been active for the American citizens, not for myself. I am fully willing to give my life to protect the freedoms afforded by the Constitution for all my fellow citizens.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
If the same scenario was to happen in the UK, Germany, France I would be saying the same things. People living in the western world tend to "get with the programm" Standing up to the authorities is something we have been conditioned not to do!

Umm.. if my history lessons serve me well, I do believe the same situations have taken place there. I could have been dreaming through that part of the books, though.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Would you not agree that the patriot act destroyed alot of freedoms you hold dear, freedoms that used to be protected. Where were the passionate average American citizens then? you all let bush do this to you! The one thing people in Europe as a whole will never understand is how bush got a second term.

1)I agree the Patriot Act destroyed a lot of freedoms.
2)I have no idea. You don't know my personal situation, so you can't assume everything.
3)I didn't allow anything to happen. I did/do not support Bush.
4)The voting system is rigged with the use of digitalized votes. That's how bush got his 2nd term.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
Also for those who have lost track of the arguement, read to original authors post it makes excellent reading.

Ok.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
P.S I asked melbourne to maybe get involved because this topic has a serious american bias to it and he (from reading his posts, I dont actually know the guy) has alot of interesting things to say.

Sorry, just seemed to me, you lost an argument (which is not my intention to argue, but to share the truths) and was calling for help. I understand fully what the thread is about... "The myth of successful armed resistance in the US in case of martial law".

A "myth" is to be discussed? It's not a myth. The original 13 colonies of what was to become America did it with pride, and it will happen again. We shall not fail.

[edit on 1/16/2007 by Infoholic]

A well engineered propaganda stunt could be used to initiate a campaign to disarm the American public. It worked in Australia...

Port Arthur massacre conspiracies







[edit on 16-1-2007 by NeuronDivide]

You have voted Damocles for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

It was people like Damocles that have protected this country for many Generations, It's people like him that will continue to protect this country from both foreign and domestic threats. I could only be so honored to stand next to someone like that. Believe me, very few of our countrymen in the army would act as the mindless drones that so many portray them here. We are afterall talking about some of America's best and brightest.

I do find it funny how some in this thread would condemn us for our agressive foreign policy, then encourage us to declare a civil war over a few governmental indiscretions. Yes the patriot act is bad but give us time and we will repeal it peacefully, that's the way its been for generations. I would like the opportunity to remind you of why.

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

I say let democracy run it's course and when and only when the offences of our government are unbearable and all peaceful options exhausted should we rise up in arms against that government and establish a new experiment.