The myth of successful armed resistance in the US in case of martial law

The myth of successful armed resistance in the US in case of martial law

When I read some of the post here on ATS and others forums about martial law in the US, I always see posts that are claiming that if martial law is ever declared all over the country, the people will fight and it's gonna be worse than in Iraq. DId the people in New Orleans fought when they took their guns and went into their homes? Also, in Iraq, most of the casualties inflicted to the US army are made by IEDs and suicide bombers, not with guns.

In the US, there's 80 millions guns owners, but of those, how much would fight or keep their firearms when the police/military kick their doors and take them like they did in New Orleans? Let's say 25% keep their guns, on those 25%, how many people will fight? 50% of those? That's 10 millions people. You say that's a lot of armed people.

But let's make a comparaison with Iraq. In Iraq, under Saddam, almost every home had at least 1 gun. Iraq's population was 26 millions in 2005, that means they had at least 20 millions guns, they were armed to the teeth... and who fighted and overthrown Saddam, a dictatorship? Not a lot of people. Those who fighted only fighted the troops in southern Iraq, killing some police officers, some soldiers but it's not this way that you will regain your country. What I want to say is that even with the basic technology of the Iraqi government and their equipment, they were able to keep their dictatorship because of the spies they had in the population.

In the US, the police state is growing little by little, making lists of ``possible threat`` including people protesting against the war and political enemies, over 300.000 names on that list , the militias are surely on that list. Putting cameras all over the place, like in schools , manipulating kids to love the government and denying them access to information and giving them good behavior drugs , or even spy on their own students. They start early to manipulate them by fingerprinting 5 years old kids or banning typical school games or even taking DNA at birth. For the adults, spying on citizens by listening to them or watching them, taking their fingerprint to have a mortage or by scanning you, your shoes and your eyes . New technology to ``detect violent behavior`` or more technology for police to scan car license-plates that would help localize someone. They admits they breach your privacy and will soon force you to have the ID card or maybe become a spy for the US government? When the private mercenaries will come for you, assisted with the planes scanning your neighboorhood, what will you do? When everything you say online will be monitored what will you do to ignite a revolution like the founding fathers did when the time will be needed? You won't be able to talk on planes , on internet, by emails, on the streets, on the phone, on radio, without being monitored. HOW WILL YOU ORGANIZE? When your alone or in group, it will be very hard to win a skirmish in the street without being monitored, recorded and then tracked by the army. They will know who killed who, where you are, who was with you, then they'll come after you and put you in a concentration camp that Halliburton built just under your nose.

It's hard in Iraq because the technological police state wasn't there FIRST. In the USA, it will be there and full functionnal when the crap hit the fan. The only way to fight will be in the wild side of the country, and those inside the cities will be under total control. That's why the fight against a police state must be won at the 2008 elections, because do you imagine 8 more years of push for a police state?

Will you fight when they announce the North American Union? Will you fight when the country is bankrupt because of them? Will you fight when they take your guns? Will you fight when the election is cancelled? Will you fight if they go into Iran? Will you fight if they impose a draft? Will you fight if they put martial law? Will you fight if they legalize illegal immigrants? Will you fight if they start chipping everybody?

And to prepare or work to avoid this day, what will you do?

[edit on 16-1-2007 by Vitchilo]

You have voted Vitchilo for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Wow, so much which could be said.

- ID cards. You have had them for years. Its called a Drivers license.
Dont believe me, go without one while your walking and have a police ask you for identification. Its just the norm, we are used to carrying them.

- 2008 elections...like that means anything. Same people, same few that make it to the top out of millions of americans. Its all a game, elections, and many see it for what it is.

- Founding Fathers...
Notice not a bunch of poor boys, but had ties with england...Call America a project of the U.K., or whomever...but it wasnt how most people romanticize it to be. (the poor, weak, plain ol joe, getting freedom and ruling over themselves.

- As far as fighting...your right guns wont do.
It takes an attitude shift. Like the movie Merlin, ignore it, dont feed it your energy, and it will go away. All these games in Iraq, etc. (wars) are to feed off of peoples energy.
Learn to take control of who you are...conquer yourself first, and then watch the world change. Slow? Well faster and more pleasant then if you never set out on the path of peace.

Peace

dAlen


[edit on 16-1-2007 by dAlen]

- ID cards.

You don't pay with your driver license, you're not obligated by law to have a driver license if you don't own a car, there's no tracking chip in your driver license, you don't need it to work, ect...

- 2008 elections

I know it's a game, but that's why in 2008 a real ``the people`` candidate must be elected or it's dictatorship.

- Founding Fathers...

Poor old boys? Fighting for their own country and against their abusive leaders? That's the same reasons why the american people will fight the second indendance war.

- As far as fighting...your right guns wont do.

That was my point, the guns won't save you, you need to fight with your ideas before it gets violent or it will be very costly in terms of lives.

Originally posted by Vitchilo

- ID cards.

You don't pay with your driver license, you're not obligated by law to have a driver license if you don't own a car, there's no tracking chip in your driver license, you don't need it to work, ect...

You are required to have ID.
Either a state ID or drivers license. This is fact. Again, when a police talks to you when you are walking they will tell you this.

Its just accepted fact that:
- you have a license
- or an state ID (for clubbing, drinking, etc.)

They are not called required, but there are things set in place making it a necessity to have either or.

And the founding fathers, were not poor boys...they were related to, and had connections to London. Even Ben traveled back and forth...thats kind of expensive in those days to do a transatlantic trip if you ask me. No independence if you ask me.

Peace

dAlen

I'm personaly unsure if the Military will agree fighting against the people in the US itself, in New Orleans, the nastyest actions by "military" people was done by mercs deployed there. The military did confiscate guns and invade homes, but it was in an extreme situation.

If the same would be demanded from them nationwide I'm fairly certain more then enough of them (including the higher ups in the military itself) would see that this is for one purpouse and one purpouse only, that being martial law and a destruction of the constitution.

Offcource it all depends on how many in the military will have their eyes open and how many will just do what they are told.

I'm hopefull the later group will be the minority.

The military did confiscate guns and invade homes, but it was in an extreme situation.

That's why they will create an extreme situation, they won't come out like this, saying: MARTIAL LAW MARTIAL LAW, we enslave you! MOUHAAA...

Martial law will not be forced in America because there is a major difference between us and most dictatorial countries. Our people don't idealize our leaders... We don't think of anyone as infallable like so many of the countries that fall for it... The armies would not follow a man/woman who says to confine their own, because regardless of what is preached in your country the truth is that we have a peoples army made up of our own children.

Yeah we have a lot of things wrong with our country, but I've read many of Vitch's post and he/she is greatly mislead about the state of our country... Perhaps he/she does have a good grasp on our foreign policy which is "dirty" to say the least, but he/she assumes that we don't want our leaders to act as they do... We just like to have it done, and protest and act like we have a conscience. Have no doubt that most Americans would love to have everyone tomorrow turn to a democracy/capitalist country. We don't like to think about what WE have to do to make that happen, but luckily we live in a country that does the dirty work AND protests the likes.

So, Vitchilo... are you implying that every American, owner of a gun or not, should willingly accept the idea that when Martial Law is declared on the United States soil, we should all give up, roll over, and play dead?

I sincerely disagree with your stance.

George Washington knew that the King of England would be pissed when he signed the Declaration of Independence. George Washington, Bill Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin all knew the King of England would be pissed when they said they would fight against him.

All the people of the original 13 colonies, which was way lower than the 10 million people you describe here, knew their lives were to be put in danger when they refused to be ruled under a totalitarian dictatorship, also known as a monarchy, the King.

The steps and route the current Administration is taking, along with the goals of the Illuminati, heading for the New World Order... I will never follow. I also believe anyone that is a true American, that feels deeply in their unalienable rights to freedom, liberty, rights, and their life, liberty, and personal pursuit of happiness... of which this great nation was founded, will not follow their suit as well.


Again, you are wrong, Vitchilo, to encourage people not to defend their freedoms, even if that requires the spilling of one's own blood.

[edit on 1/16/2007 by Infoholic]

Our people don't idealize our leaders...

I'm not convinced of that, just look at the neo-cons and those who believe the war on terror bullcrap. Some christians think Bush is sent by God to fight the ``islamofascists`` and fight for Israël so the Messiah can come back

The armies would not follow a man/woman who says to confine their own, because regardless of what is preached in your country the truth is that we have a peoples army made up of our own children.

I hope that this is truth, but under an ``extreme`` event, like a nuke blowing up a city before the election, or an intergalactic threat... a lot of the army would submit.

So, Vitchilo... are you implying that every American, owner or a gun or not, should willingly accept the idea that when Martial Law is declared on the United States soil, we should all give up, roll over, and play dead?

No, I'm just saying to act NOW peacefully to overturn this crap before it's too late, because I see too many people saying that their guns will save them. That the government would never allow martial law because they fear the armed american people.

The steps and route the current Administration is taking, along with the goals of the Illuminati, heading for the New World Order... I will never follow. I also believe anyone that is a true American, that feels deeply in their unalienable rights to freedom, liberty, rights, and their life, liberty, and personal pursuit of happiness... of which this great nation was founded, will not follow their suit as well.

AMEN to that.

Again, you are wrong, Vitchilo, to encourage people not to defend their freedoms, even if that requires the spilling of one's own blood.

Well, as I said before, I'm encouraging people to act BEFORE it's too late and to not accept any breach of their rights.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
No, I'm just saying to act NOW peacefully to overturn this crap before it's too late, because I see too many people saying that their guns will save them. That the government would never allow martial law because they fear the armed american people.....[/edit/]....Well, as I said before, I'm encouraging people to act BEFORE it's too late and to not accept any breach of their rights.

OK, I must have misunderstood your original post, then.

I agree. People must take action. Any action at all. However, as your original post states, about martial law being declared... we can all safely assume the aforementioned steps of peaceable action have been taken... with that in mind...

It is your 2nd Amendment Right, the right to keep and bear arms, that keeps America from heading straight down the crapper. The fact that the government knows, 10 million (or less) Americans will bear arms against them, is the only thing that prevents Martial Law from being declared in America right now. The 2nd Amendment Right to bear arms is the only thing that prevents the USA from being declared under the New World Order.

Simply put, the government knows too many (no matter how few that is) of us will in fact stand against them in a violent means. That threat is the only thing protecting your right to speak against the violent means.

The threat of Americans like me and those others that will willingly use arms against our government in your idealistic cases, is the only thing that protects the rights of the rest that choose to talk about the problems, and to take peaceable actions.



Speaking of peaceable actions, is this close to what you are referring to?
www.petitiononline.com...

[edit on 1/16/2007 by Infoholic]

where were all the people bearing arms in New Orleans when the guns were rounded up after the hurricane?
alot of americans believe in protecting their homes; not alot of americans believe they have to protect themselves from their govt.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
alot of americans believe in protecting their homes; not alot of americans believe they have to protect themselves from their govt.

That is exactly what we have to change.

For those people that don't know they should protect themselves from the government...

Baby steps, shooterbrody, baby steps.


For everyone else, do what you must, but most importantly, spread the word.

I Posted a reply in another thread on a similar subject a couple of days ago,

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

As for the arguement that the armed Civilian populace will make a big stand, IMHO I wouldn't count on it. Was I the only one to see the local populations response to Hurricane Katrina! I didn't see the cohesion of your fellow man there!!! No what I saw was every man, woman and child for himself. That or lets just stay here and wait, the government will save the day!

...

What about 9/11 the local population were simply just gobsmacked, they were panicking! that was just one attack, imagine New York being pounded by Artillery fire, Being bombed from the Air and raided by infantry and mobile artillery! Can you honestly tell me that the average family guy, pensioner or Gang banger will be on the streets with their 9mm Pistols, agian IMHO. I DON'T SEE IT HAPPENING!

Please stop trying to kid yourselves that the USA is at this moment is safe! If all your troops were home yes you would be alot safer so I would say to all Americans. Mobilise yourselves, get on the streets and REALLY protest at your governments foreign policy. Get your troops HOME!

Take care all

I'm not an American basher, this phenominon is universal the Western civilisation, we are taught from an early age that taking the law into our own hands is wrong. At school we are taught that if we are being bullied we MUST go straight to a teacher who will then sort out the problem. This mental conditioning stays with us into adulthood.Thats how governments keep us law fearing citizens, by making us think that the police are the only people that can and should help us. Imagine if they taught us that if we were being bullied we should create a clan out of fellow classmates wait untill after school and beat the bully to an inch of his life! If that was what we were being taught there would be anarchy as people roamed the streets delivering the law as they see fit.

The two examples I give above are the difference between Western civilisation and African/Arab/Asian tribes.

The good thing about how we are conditioned is that an advanced society is allowed to develop because of the complicated law structure and dicipline, the negative side is that is takes away a communities feeling of collective responsibility.

People in the western world have lost the natural ability to come together.
In every case of emergency in recent times people have purley relied on the Authorities and in the case of the Authorities not being able to cope or not turning up the population turns to looting, raping and murdering.

On a positive note after a certain amount of time people would find the ability to come together. But the time between "Yippee, now I can walk into Walmart and help myself to a plasma TV" to "Oh crap we all need to work together if any of us are going to survive" is all the time needed for the governments to have fullfilled their plans.

And I do wish Americans would stop going on about how heavily armed they are! So what what if you've got 10, 15, 20 or 500 million with guns!!! If martial law was announced this evening who's going magically organise all these civilians with guns into regiments of effective freedom fighters! that isn't going to happen! the most you get is some people firing potshots with his 9mm pistol at the APC's filled with 4/5 trained personell roaming the streets and that case the person firing will be shot and killed with a fully automatic M16 or .50cal

If the order was to stay indoors after sunset and anybody seen outside with be attacked with lethal force will you and maybe a couple of you buddies be outside with your pistols shouting "come and have a go if you fink ya 'ard enuff" Nah didn't think you would.

If the Government calls marshall law and they mean business, believe me it will not be a half arsed operation.

My 2pence

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
And I do wish Americans would stop going on about how heavily armed they are! So what what if you've got 10, 15, 20 or 500 million with guns!!! If martial law was announced this evening who's going magically organise all these civilians with guns into regiments of effective freedom fighters! that isn't going to happen! the most you get is some people firing potshots with his 9mm pistol at the APC's filled with 4/5 trained personell roaming the streets and that case the person firing will be shot and killed with a fully automatic M16 or .50cal

I love the ideal you share by "you're not as fully armed as the military".

Tell it to the ones that founded this nation.

Again, the 2nd Amendment has thus far prevented the steps you mention by the government, just by being there. No one has exercised their 2nd Amendment Right, as was intended by the Founding Fathers of America, yet the government hides behind the ideal, "Let's hope they never get a backbone."


Sounds like we've got a chance, to me.

You have voted Vitchilo for the Way Above Top Secret award.

This is a subject that always comes up in other posts, but you've put it into it's own thread and brought up interesting points.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
alot of americans believe in protecting their homes; not alot of americans believe they have to protect themselves from their govt.

Yeah I think this is true, and if the government were to plan anything like martial law, they would make sure to soften up the American populations in advance. I don't know how, maybe speeches or patriotic television broadcasts to gain public trust for the government. But they would definitely try to make sure that any resistance was as small as possible.

It's easy enough to say that you would go out all guns blazing, but as the OP said; when the police come kicking down your door, are you actually going to grab your gun and fight them? I can't see it happening much.

And I agree, the change that needs to happen is about attitudes and wariness, but i don't know what the chances are that the majority would change their attitudes before it's too late. The government keeps doing things that annoy the public but they still get away with it.

just remember a defeatist attitude doesnt help either you know. let the people who say they are gonna fight say it and hope they do. by casting doubt on your own ability to resist a full police state your giving away yet another advantage to the enemy:hope

Interesting, I imagine that when the police or army comes knocking the door asking for you weapons we already be told by the propaganda media that is OK to give them away because is you government and let the government protect you and you always trust you law enforcement officials.

Occurs people will give away their guns happily.

And those than not they can always be taken to secret detention camps

After all what is the constitution now a days but an old piece of paper with the only value of been a historical document.

Then we have VP Cheney doing surveillance on all the credit cards and bank accounts statements of American people, to make sure you do not purchase anything that can be deemed a terrorist act.

People American has been taken over, just as well give away your rights to own guns.

[edit on 16-1-2007 by marg6043]

Originally posted by Infoholic

I love the ideal you share by "you're not as fully armed as the military".

Tell it to the ones that founded this nation.

Your founding Fathers are no longer relevent. America and Americans are VERY different today!

And

Why does your country spend so much on research and development into new weapons? because an army that has more advanced weaponry has the upper hand! simple. Saying that my argument didn't intend to focus on what type of guns Americans have I was trying to get across that it doesn't matter how many guns you have if they don't all fire together as a team they're worthless.

Stop thinking with your Heart and start thinking with your head.

Going off topic here,

Where does this common misconception by Americans that America is invincable come from? I find it astonishingly arrogant!

Originally posted by dAlen
- As far as fighting...your right guns wont do.
It takes an attitude shift. Like the movie Merlin, ignore it, dont feed it your energy, and it will go away. All these games in Iraq, etc. (wars) are to feed off of peoples energy.
Learn to take control of who you are...conquer yourself first, and then watch the world change. Slow? Well faster and more pleasant then if you never set out on the path of peace.

I thought that this was worth having repeated in this thread.

And after you get to the stage dAlen's talking about here, there's nothing stopping you from getting a gun just in case you ever feel like shooting anybody anyway.

From where I stand, what we commonly know as universally good or evil are even unfounded biases, that nature does not honor. In nature, animals may fight when one first interferes with another. If any form of universal evil exists, fundamentally it would be these kind of "hindering" interferences with our healthier behaviors as humans, which I think are ultimately non-violent. So I don't consider myself particularly violent, but I would see it objectively as a "net gain", if you will, if someone came to me in an attempt to take my life, and I shot them in the face instead. Better them than me for several reasons, I would imagine, and let's see if anything in nature bothers to punish me for what some may consider "bad". Not that I really care either way, and not like getting killed before I can defend myself is really THAT big a deal either.

My cent thrown in with your's. A pretty ugly rant actually. :-/

[edit on 16-1-2007 by bsbray11]