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Atheists vs Believers DEBATE *** ROLE REVERSAL ***

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posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 05:48 PM
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Mod Note: ATS Handbook – Please Review This Link.

Further help regarding posting techniques can be interactively addressed in the ATS Freshman’s Forum.




posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 05:57 PM
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"Perhaps in 2 to 4 months i'll bump it back up and see if it works."

Why would I say that? Only if I had the ability to move it back to the start, which members don't have. I don't normally talk like that. Here's what I said because I remember what I said:

Usually when people post on older threads, they start having more posts.

That was telling the thread maker (I forgot your name) that his thread might get some more posts in a couple of months.

[edit on 9-1-2007 by wildcat]



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by wildcat
"Perhaps in 2 to 4 months i'll bump it back up and see if it works."

Why would I say that?


But Esoteric Teacher did in the preceding post to yours (please look, also note that his post is unedited). Quoting a preceding a post in it's entirety is grounds for a "Big Quote Warn," compound quoting (quotes within quotes) is also a "Big Quote Warn." You have edited the post in question several times, altering it's appearance, and who material is attributed to. Your "One Line Post" is actually buried within the quote attributed Esoteric Teacher:



Usually if someone writes on a old thread, it starts getting some more posters.


That is the actual sum total of your input in that post.

At no place does an edit by myself or any other staff member appear on the posts in question.



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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Originally posted by Mirthful Me

Originally posted by wildcat
"Perhaps in 2 to 4 months i'll bump it back up and see if it works."

Why would I say that?


But Esoteric Teacher did in the preceding post to yours (please look, also note that his post is unedited). Quoting a preceding a post in it's entirety is grounds for a "Big Quote Warn," compound quoting (quotes within quotes) is also a "Big Quote Warn." You have edited the post in question several times, altering it's appearance, and who material is attributed to. Your "One Line Post" is actually buried within the quote attributed Esoteric Teacher:



Usually if someone writes on a old thread, it starts getting some more posters.


That is the actual sum total of your input in that post.

At no place does an edit by myself or any other staff member appear on the posts in question.


I guess if you have to be super obsessive compulsive on having everything perfect. That's what all these rules are, obsessive compulsive. Shown in the rule of one-liner post and excessive qoutes. So what if someone qoutes too many qoutes? You don't all have to be that up-tight about it, it's not a masters theses.

Members aren't stupid you know, we can figure things out, and sometimes better than you like when MM asked me "I'm just wondering why you had to quote someone quoting you who was quoting another member so that you could post four words?"

Then who changed my post?

Edited it several times? I edited my original words before it got changed. Then I edited it one more time when I erased "I did not say that" and put it in a post below. I still have reason to believe you did it. Why? You gave me a excessive qoute on that and when I went back to see with the link you gave me, it was changed. You were the mod that fined me, so who else could of done it?



[edit on 9-1-2007 by wildcat]



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 08:04 PM
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Originally posted by wildcat
You were the mod that fined me, so who else could of done it?


To my knowledge, no one.

If any Mod edits a post, they are not capable of leaving out an:
"editted by ..... ", because it is automatically generated, in compliance with the programming of this sight.

I truly believe what you are implying is outside the realm of capability for Mods. If they edit a post, their name is automatically generated as is the fact that they editted the post, and almost always a reason is supplied for why they do it as well.

So, i think what you are implying is not even possible.

And ..... back on topix .....



posted on Jan, 9 2007 @ 08:07 PM
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One thing that bothers me is I never talk like that.



posted on Jan, 10 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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Well then the only other person who is a suspect on this would be my little brother. I don't want to drive all the way down to my parents house to talk to him. He doesn't know my password, and I believe I changed it since then.



posted on Jan, 10 2007 @ 04:17 PM
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What a great idea for a thread. Once. When it started, I would've said I was a believer. But I think wildcat has turned me around.

:bnghd:



posted on Jan, 10 2007 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by yeahright
But I think wildcat has turned me around.

:bnghd:


Your talking about babies aren't you? Or is it because you think I wasted this thread? Well don't blame me, my anger is toward Mirthful Me who if you would of seen my U2U box, you would know that MM is abusing his/her power. And that MM is a bad reader, plus obsessive compulsive, which I have another reason to believe he/her is. I got an excessive qoute fine on the one where I said, "I guess if you have to be obsessive compulsive." I don't see how that's a excessive qoute. Maybe MM is mad at me for that, I think yes. MM once agained failed to tell me why, by mysteriously not responding to my U2U, twice. MM used to respond to my U2U, but not anymore. He/her just gives me a pentaly and never tells why. Usually when I get fines, the mod tells me why. But this time it's not happening.

These excessive qoutes and one-liner posts are nonsense. The people who I hang out with would think that whoever made those rules is obsessive compulsive and doesn't have a life. They also all have no problem understanding my posts.

Awhile ago, I used to "excessice qoute" all the time. But for some reason I just starting getting fines. And Mirthful Me is the only one who ever fined me for excessive qoutes. Now doesn't that mean something?


[edit on 10-1-2007 by wildcat]



posted on Jan, 10 2007 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by wildcat


Or is it because you think I wasted this thread? Well don't blame me, my anger is toward Mirthful Me who if you would of seen my U2U box, you would know that MM is abusing his/her power.

I think you are ruining this thread and i`m not a mod,i read on the previous post where you mucked up the quoting and blamed in on MM.Have another look at it and see.You have been told many things in this thread already but your ignoring good advice.

MM even posted a link for you to learn how to quote and your still crying about nothing wrecking this thread.


These excessive qoutes and one-liner posts are nonsense. The people who I hang out with would think that whoever made those rules is obsessive compulsive and doesn't have a life. They also all have no problem understanding my posts.

Easy fixed hang out with them then and if you cant abide by the rules of a site you dont own or run dont cry when your pulled up for it.


Awhile ago, I used to "excessice qoute" all the time. But for some reason I just starting getting fines. And Mirthful Me is the only one who ever fined me for excessive qoutes. Now doesn't that mean something?

It doesn`t seem you know how to quote based on the post you stuffed up on the other page,so i`m not surprised you used to do it all the time.Read the link or ask someone politely for help and i`m sure they will,once upon a time i did exactly that and a Mod was more than helpful.The reason i asked for help was a mod had to fix a quote i messed up,and i dont like to be a burden.


ET

I have wanted to participate in the thread,i have had a little trouble trying to think of a motive from the other perspective and was hoping after reading others i would eventually get the hang of it,is also why i`m a bit annoyed of this rambling about nothing.Can`t guarantee anything or quality but i`ll have a go if i can think of a way to post.


[edit on 10-1-2007 by gps777]



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 04:53 PM
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Huh. Who's winning this debate?

Seems like the believers are better equipped to argue the athiestic views more so than the athiests are capable of arguing the believer views. Perhaps this is due to believers knowing the athiests point of view, while athiests do not know believers point of view.

Lest someone wants to step up and prove me wrong ......



posted on Jan, 13 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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I don't know where this thread is going but the topic is interesting...

I really don't know which to pick, though I don't believe in any gods I believe in ghosts!

I could play both I think.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:44 AM
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Well, I'll enter this debate as well then, as such for the purpose's of this thread I am an atheist again.


Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Seems like the believers are better equipped to argue the athiestic views more so than the athiests are capable of arguing the believer views. Perhaps this is due to believers knowing the athiests point of view, while athiests do not know believers point of view.


That's what I think will happen, except for those that have believed and then decided against their beliefs.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 01:52 AM
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One that is hopefully on track once again...

The precept of defending the position of cause that you don't subscribe to is an age old exercise... And with good reason... If you can step into your adversary's shoes and still mount a credible argument, then you are more than qualified to defend that which is near and dear...

I look forward to a spirited discussion.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 07:15 AM
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So, as an atheist for the purposes of this thread, I will use the standard point of hell. If only one religion is true, then why do all the other religion's believers go to hell? Also why would a "just" God truly send people to hell indefinitely no matter how bad they are over a certain level of evil.

There is also no 'real' evidence of God's existence, only anecdotal so there is not a real reason to believe other than to ease fear of death.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 06:23 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Lest someone wants to step up and prove me wrong ......


You know I'd love to!


Here's my dilemma. For the purpose of this thread, I'm a believer. My religion and beliefs about God are personal to me. I find that as a believer, I have absolutely no interest in arguing the existence of God. For belief in God is based on faith and cannot be proven.

But that doesn't change the fact that I believe in God and he works miracles in my life. I speak with him every day and I know he hears me and he comforts me. I can feel it. How can I prove that to you? I cannot. So, why try?

It's much like trying to describe love. How can I do that? How can I prove that what I believe is true and why should I? I will lead by example and I will be here if you should ever want to talk about it.

I do sincerely hope you allow God to make his presence known in your life, but I cannot make that happen. Only you can open up to that possibility. It's between you and God.



posted on Jan, 14 2007 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

But that doesn't change the fact that I believe in God and he works miracles in my life. I speak with him every day and I know he hears me and he comforts me. I can feel it. How can I prove that to you? I cannot. So, why try?



Nice post BH

For the purpose of this thread i will be an atheiest as i`m a believer/Christian.

From what i`ve heard your purpose is to spread what you know to be true,if for instance you know and believe God exists why would`nt God want you to share your knowledge of Him and the gift of eternal bliss,how could you just keep that to yourself and leave anyone in their ignorance,you know if its so good and all.

Gods vineyard is supposed to be worked to produce fruit so i have heard from believers

and many more passages...........


Matthew 21
43"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 44He who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."[j]




Luke 8:16
[ A Lamp on a Stand ] "No one lights a lamp and hides it in a jar or puts it under a bed. Instead, he puts it on a stand, so that those who come in can see the light.


Keeping it all to yourself seems selfish if thats what you believe.

So i want proof from you that he`s real before i`ll believe.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:02 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
From what i`ve heard your purpose is to spread what you know to be true...


I do share it. I lead by example. I don't by any means keep my faith to myself. People ask me all the time why I'm so happy and why I have such a positive outlook on life, why I'm always smiling... and I'm more than ready to share that it's Jesus Christ working through me to witness to other people. If they're interested in having a more fulfilling life, I'm thrilled to share my experiences and the joy I get from my personal faith and how they can also share in the joy of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

I just don't 'push' it. I don't often bring it up with the specific purpose of witnessing to people, unless it seems like they are open to and need some help. Only then do I invite them to church with me or sugggest a particular bible verse. And if they seem open to it, I'm more than happy to witness. Otherwise, I just let Jesus shine through my life and people notice.


In my experience, 'pushing' it mostly results in negative feelings and argument. Pushing any point of view causes others to put up walls and shields. That's counterproductive to my intent and purpose, so even though I'm tempted to force the issue, I don't, because I know it turns people away.

My light isn't under a bed or hidden away. It's brightness shines for all to see. And they DO see.



So i want proof from you ...


You want proof from me? I'm sorry, I cannot give you proof. Only you can find the proof you seek. I will be glad to make suggestions and tell you about my experiences of Jesus Christ, but for you to reap the benefits that I have in my life, you must seek him out. He's there. Patiently and lovingly waiting to hear from you.

Here's a good place for you to begin your search for the truth. It's talks about the importance of each person seeking the truth for themselves, because I would never want you to adopt my truth. It's so much more meaningful and rewarding to find your own truth in the Lord.

Seek and ye shall find...



Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;
knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and
to him that knocketh it shall be opened.


You can also visit churches in your area where I know people will be more than happy to help guide you when you need it. Good luck in your search and remember, I'm here. Don't hesitate to contact me.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:19 AM
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But what if someone believes something different to you, not just an atheist, but if they are a Hindu/Muslim/(please not this) Scientologist? What happens to them? Do they get heaven or do they get to hell for denying Christ? What truly Just God would do that, given the (generally bad) evidence for his existence in this universe?



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 09:57 AM
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One of God's greatest gifts is free will. As far as people who believe something different, they are using the gift that God gave them. It is not for me to judge whether what they believe is right or wrong or what happens to them when they die. Only God has that privilege. That decision is reserved for Him only. Only God knows their hearts and He will make HIS judgment based on that. It's not my place to be involved in that particular judgment.

I do not assume to judge the eternal fate of any other person. I just don't go there -- for it is not my decision and I don't have enough information to do so. Only God, in His infinite wisdom, has enough information to judge...

Don't get me wrong, I would love to convince everyone in the world to come to God through Christ, because I know it's the only way to be saved, but my job is not to MAKE them come to Him, but to witness to them and with their gift of free will, given by God, they will decide.


Originally posted by apex
What truly Just God would do that, given the (generally bad) evidence for his existence in this universe?


God has set forth what we should obey and how we should live our lives. For Him to be just, He must do what He says. He must follow through with His promises. If He were to let everyone into the kingdom, regardless of their adherence to His laws, that wouldn't be just or fair. Justice determines consequences. If a person breaks the law, justice is what's used to set his punishment. Justice means fairness... paying the consequences to what God determines is right and wrong. Justice doesn't mean that everyone enjoys the fruits of righteousness. That's far from justice.

As regards evidence, I see evidence of God's existence everywhere in the Universe. It's a matter of each person's perception and judgment. I know certain feelings I have come directly from God. When I pray for an answer, and the answer is given to me, it's as clear as day to me that it came from God. Now you may judge that as silly or as my own thoughts and you may think that I'm just 'imagining' that it's God, but I know in my heart and soul that God speaks to me and loves me enough to know the number of hairs on my head. I can feel the love of God more passionately than any love I've ever known. How can I give you the evidence of that feeling? I cannot. But you can feel it if you seek it.







 
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