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Atheists vs Believers DEBATE *** ROLE REVERSAL ***

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posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 03:09 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Lest someone wants to step up and prove me wrong ......


You know I'd love to!


I would expect no less from such a "Woman of Strength". Thanks for joining us Benevolent Heretic.

I sort of understand the rest of your thread. I've heard other "believers" say similiar things, or statements to the same effect. But, the logic simply elludes me as to how you can say you are a believer, and say there is no way that you can justify your faith. If you believe, then haven't you proven it to yourself?



For belief in God is based on faith and cannot be proven.


Then why believe at all? You say you are a believer, however you can not supply any proof that there is a God? Then why believe if there is no way for it to be proven? The only "proof" you have is your personal observations of miracles, and that you say you talk to God.

I'm sorry. But how can you choose to believe in something that there is not any supportive proof for?




posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
One of God's greatest gifts is free will. As far as people who believe something different, they are using the gift that God gave them. It is not for me to judge whether what they believe is right or wrong or what happens to them when they die. Only God has that privilege. That decision is reserved for Him only. Only God knows their hearts and He will make HIS judgment based on that. It's not my place to be involved in that particular judgment.


Don't get me wrong, I would love to convince everyone in the world to come to God through Christ, because I know it's the only way to be saved, but my job is not to MAKE them come to Him, but to witness to them and with their gift of free will, given by God, they will decide.


Is that hypocrisy in those points? You are saying that god will decide for each person their ultimate fate, however you then go on to say that Jesus is the only way. Is that not a contradiction then?

So having said that Jesus is the only way, you then say that you will not convince people of this idea then?

(I like this thread, it's a great idea, oh and BH are you a total atheist normally then?)



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, the logic simply elludes me as to how you can say you are a believer, and say there is no way that you can justify your faith. If you believe, then haven't you proven it to yourself?


I have proven it to myself to my satisfaction, yes. And I don't have to justify it to anyone else. I have nothing to prove or justify to anyone. I know my truth. My relationship with Jesus is between him and I. For YOU to have a relationship with him, you would have to work with him to form it. My relationship with Christ is my own -- A precious gift and it's not for anyone else. Others either have or don't have their relationship with him. My relationship with him is irrelevant to yours.



You say you are a believer, however you can not supply any proof that there is a God?


We're talking two separate issues here. One is my own proof (which I already have) and the other is proof that can be provided to others (which does not exist). I have my proof. I don't NEED others to believe in my relationship with Christ. I cannot provide proof that would satisfy them. Why would I want to prove MY relationship with Christ to someone else?



The only "proof" you have is your personal observations of miracles, and that you say you talk to God.


There's a little bit more to it than that, but yes. And that's all I need. How do I know my husband loves me? How do I know that I'm doing the right thing? How do I know that mankind is basically good? How do I know we have a soul?

I have faith.



But how can you choose to believe in something that there is not any supportive proof for?


I have supportive proof. You may not accept it as such, and I wouldn't ask you to, but I have my proof.


Originally posted by apex
Is that hypocrisy in those points? You are saying that god will decide for each person their ultimate fate, however you then go on to say that Jesus is the only way. Is that not a contradiction then?


I don't see the hypocricy or contradiction. Can you elaborate on where you see the hypocricy?

John 14:6 says:


Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


We must go through Jesus to get to our Father in heaven.

And John 3:16-17:


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.




So having said that Jesus is the only way, you then say that you will not convince people of this idea then?


Not that I will not, I am willing. But that I CANNOT convince people of this. I can witness to them, I can tell them what I believe, I can be an example to them, but cannot MAKE them believe.



BH are you a total atheist normally then?


I don't think I fit firmly into any camp. I don't have the t-shirt or anything, but I am agnostic leaning toward atheist.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 04:40 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


Originally posted by apex
Is that hypocrisy in those points? You are saying that god will decide for each person their ultimate fate, however you then go on to say that Jesus is the only way. Is that not a contradiction then?


I don't see the hypocricy or contradiction. Can you elaborate on where you see the hypocricy?



I thought that the way you said that everyone will have their ultimate fate decided whether they believe Jesus is the way or not suggests that people can be saved despite not believing in Jesus. It seemed like hypocrisy to me. Sorry for not being clearer, hope you see my point now.



posted on Jan, 15 2007 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by apex
I thought that the way you said that everyone will have their ultimate fate decided whether they believe Jesus is the way or not suggests that people can be saved despite not believing in Jesus.


Oh, I see what you're saying now. And yes, everyone will have their fate decided, but not by me. And according to my beliefs, Jesus is the only way to come to God. But God knows the hearts and minds of everyone and He alone will decide their fate.

I can see where it might seem like a contradiction because if Jesus is the only way and God will decide their fate based on that, why can't I go ahead and say that anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus will not go to heaven, right? And the answer is simply because it isn't for me to say. Like I said a few posts back, I just don't go there. It's not my privilege to make that judgment.

It's not a popular position among my fellow Christians, I'll admit. But I feel that many Christians don't know how to "let go and let God" when it comes to Judgment Day. To me, it's not as simple as the laws here on Earth. If you go over the speed limit, you have broken the law. It's cut and dried. And I can pass that judgment, because I know the law and I know how to read a speedomoter. But when it comes to judging the ultimate fate of another man, I don't know God's mind, only how I interpret his word. And I also don't know the person (God does) so I cannot make a judgment about his heart or his fate. I just don't approach that judgment. It's none of my business.

Does that make more sense?



posted on Jan, 16 2007 @ 01:23 AM
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(Atheist mode switched to off)

If i didn`t know any better i`d say your Christian BH.

I can only say this is the reason a lot of people are taken advantage of i guess,by those seeking monetary gain etc,though those being "had"doesn`t mean they are not true followers of Christ and true to God.

(Atheist mode switched to on)

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

I'm thrilled to share my experiences and the joy I get from my personal faith and how they can also share in the joy of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

You want proof from me? I'm sorry, I cannot give you proof. Only you can find the proof you seek.

Ok,i have tried,i have heard as you have put it.

I had earlier on in life gone to church and all when i was young,but i realized its all bunk and everyone just believes because their parents do and their parents before them and so on,as a form of control.I woke up and saw i was just going along with the crowd,I dont see christians as better than me,they all think they are though.

They seem to me wanting or needing a crutch,i get by without,so i dont need it or want it.

So one night while i was alone not so long ago i thought i`d give it a go thinking maybe there might be something there after all,given i never really tried before,whats there to lose type thing,at least i would be able to tell pesky god botherers that i had given it a proper go.

So i guess one could say i prayed but i dont know i said along the lines......

Hey big dude in the sky
If you created me then i want some proof that your there.
Seeing i didn`t ask to be born in the first place,so for me to know your there you had better make yourself known to me.
Otherwise i`ll rely on my own and use my own logic as usual.

Move something

say somethin

come on!

like i thought zip!

Nothin Nada Nil Zilch.

And i`m annoyed now i even did that.To me if you christians went to a mental asylum and told the guys in white coats you talk to an invisible guy i doubt they`d let you home even to get your pajamas.

So either you are delusional or god likes you and not me or maybe you did it different?.


Good luck in your search and remember, I'm here. Don't hesitate to contact me.

Thanks and i just did.

I had searched and i did knock as in the prayer i did.Why didn`t anything happen and what did i do wrong then?

How do you know you have personal proof?

I`m gathering you have been baptized of water(full immersion as John did?)

Christ baptizes with the holy spirit,do you have any experience with this?

If so,can you describe how or what that is to you or to anyone,what evidence is there personally (for anyone) for the existence of such a thing (holy spirit)



Matthew 3:11
"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.


Just a thought,is it possible to receive the holy spirit first and then be baptized with water for repentance of sin?.

Also how does it sit with you that many beliefs have nearly the exact same stories in the bible yet you think christ is the only way and truth?

(Atheist mode off)
Sorry BH it seems we maybe picking on you for all the work.

I maybe done with this now.

Thanks



posted on Jan, 16 2007 @ 01:34 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
(Atheist mode switched to off) ....
.....

(Atheist mode switched to on) ...
.. . ..
(Atheist mode off)


Now, that is just funny. Priceless, and funny.

made me laugh out loud, twice.

Thanks,
john



posted on Jan, 16 2007 @ 05:09 AM
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I was a believer until.......Lilly pharmaceuticals kindly sent me fast acting BUI pill (Believer Uptake Inhibitor) and now I abhore any idea concerning a 'God'

I few pointers why I know there is no God:

1. There is no factual evidence
2. He is apparently loving, ha..tell that to the Darwin Award victims
3. Jesus was apparently his son...sorry kids, Jesus was a Nordic / Human alien hybrid. There was no immaculate conception rather it was an alien abduction were Mary recieved artifical insemination. Jesus did many things that were classed as 'miracles' which is not true, because Jesus was an alien he had technology like telepathic mind control, ability to disintergrate matter into energy and vise versa, inbuild anti grav, a time travel device to fake resurrection and a multi dimensional travel device. See very simple.
4. And after all this 'blasphemy' im still standing not one singly lightning bolt.

[5 min] No lightning bolt

[5 min] Still no lightning bolt

[5 min] Ok isn't it obvious now?

God is a no show.



posted on Jan, 16 2007 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
I woke up and saw i was just going along with the crowd,


Going along with the crowd isn't a good reason to make a decision either way, imo. I'm sure that if you look deep into your heart, you will find the right answer for you, without regard to what the 'crowd' thinks.




They seem to me wanting or needing a crutch,i get by without,so i dont need it or want it.


I can't speak for anyone else, but my faith isn't a crutch at all, it's a beautiful gift. And 'getting by' is fine, it's just not enough for me. My faith is not just the icing on the cake of my life, it's the icing, ice cream, sprinkles, presents and decorations of my life. So, I personally wouldn't advise thinking of one's personal faith as a crutch. But more like a wonderful, joyous addition to one's life.



Hey big dude in the sky
If you created me then i want some proof that your there... like i thought zip!


The fact that you said "like I thought" gives me the impression that you were expecting nothing. My experience in life is that most times, I get what I'm expecting. In other words, you found what you were looking for. Nothing. "Seek and ye shall find" Seek nothing and ye shall find nothing.



So either you are delusional or god likes you and not me or maybe you did it different?.


Yeah...
I did it a little differently, but not without my own clumsiness.




I had searched and i did knock as in the prayer i did.Why didn`t anything happen and what did i do wrong then?


You didn't do anything wrong. As with anything in life, the first time (or the first few times) someone does something, they might not quite get the hang of it. Practice makes perfect. I can tell you I felt VERY awkward the first few times I prayed. I felt embarrassed, almost like someone was watching me. I was self-conscious, even though I was totally alone! So, I understand your frustration. But remember you're not doing a thing wrong and if you keep trying, you will become proficient and your life will surely change for the better. Not to say that it's bad now, but it's my experience that a personal relationship with Jesus Christ adds more joy and love to my life than I could ever imagine.

Tell me this. If your child got lost and you searched for him that night, would you wake up the next day and say, "Well, I tried. Didn't find him."? Would you need proof that he was out there, still alive? Or would you do whatever it took to find him and exhaust all possibilities?

I'm not saying that Christ is like a child, I'm just saying that for something that could add so much to your life, you may be giving up a little prematurely. Another example is a mate. If you felt that a mate could possibly add richness and joy to your life, would you go out and look one evening and then give up because you didn't find him or her?



How do you know you have personal proof?


Again, in my experience it's the same type of 'knowing' I felt when I realized that I loved my husband. I just knew. Could I explain it? Not really. How do you know you want to have children? You just do. How do you know that you're happy? You just do. You'll know. Either you'll feel like you have proof or you won't.



I`m gathering you have been baptized of water(full immersion as John did?)


(This is true) Yes. When I was about 12-13, I decided to dedicate my life to Christ and I was saved and baptized in my church. I had been going to church, Sunday School and bible school so I knew all the bible stories and one time as they held the benediction after the service, I felt TOTALLY drawn to go forward and ask Jesus into my heart and my life. There's no way I could have stayed in my seat that day. I needed to turn my life over to him. I knew I had sinned and I wanted to be forgiven and live a better life and, yes, I wanted to go to heaven when I died.

So I went up and knelt at the alter and prayed. I asked Jesus to come into my life, to fill my life with his presence, to forgive my sins and to help me along the path he'd chosen for me. I cried like a baby! It was a true watershed moment in my life. I was saved. And after that, I was blessed with the joy of having a personal relationship with Jesus.

The following Sunday, I was baptised in front of the whole church (it was a Baptist church, so yes it was a full baptism) and my sins were washed away and I had the promise of forgiveness and everlasting life.



Christ baptizes with the holy spirit,do you have any experience with this?
...
If so,can you describe how or what that is to you or to anyone,what evidence is there personally (for anyone) for the existence of such a thing (holy spirit)


To tell you the truth, I don't have a firm idea or explanation of the Holy Spirit. I know some denominations of Christianity hold the trinity as very important, but I have not yet felt the need to understand the details of what God wants us to believe about the trinity. But I'm still searching... There's always more to learn. What I think of when I hear "Holy Spirit" is the spirit of God.



Just a thought,is it possible to receive the holy spirit first and then be baptized with water for repentance of sin?.


I can't say. Many Christians make all kind of hard and fast rules according to their interpretation of the bible as regards such things, but in my opinion, there is no set way to receive Christ. We could fumble and screw up totally, we can backslide and misunderstand, but if our heart is true (and God knows this), we will find our way.



Also how does it sit with you that many beliefs have nearly the exact same stories in the bible yet you think christ is the only way and truth?


It sits fine with me. That's what I was saying in the previous paragraph and in a few previous posts in answer to apex's questions. The second paragraph here:
www.belowtopsecret.com...

I know what's right for me. I know it's the only way. I don't judge others' paths. I just don't.



Sorry BH it seems we maybe picking on you for all the work.


That's all right.
I wish we had more responders to make it more interesting, but this is cool.



Originally posted by Selmer2
Jesus was a Nordic / Human alien hybrid. ... alien abduction were Mary recieved artifical insemination. ...Jesus was an alien he had technology like telepathic mind control, ability to disintergrate matter into energy and vise versa, inbuild anti grav, a time travel device to fake resurrection and a multi dimensional travel device. See very simple.


And people say my beliefs are far out!


Just joshing with ya.



God is a no show.


I can only guess that you're looking in the wrong place and without the spirit of genuine curiosity. Are you really expecting God to strike you with lightning? When was the last time that happened? The people who get struck by lightning aren't blaspheming at the time.


You have the freedom to believe and say whatever you like. God does not punish people on a daily basis for what they do. He rewards them in the end.

To both gps777 and Selmer2: Why do you demand physical proof of someone who is not of the physical? Do you demand proof of love from those in your life? Do you have faith in anything in your life? Remembering that faith is belief without proof.



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 02:00 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Going along with the crowd isn't a good reason to make a decision either way, imo.

(Atheist mode switched to on
ET)
Yes BH this is what i woke up,but so is everyone else.Its a bunch of stories written by men for control.You dont realize your a bunch of zombies,that need freeing.



I can't speak for anyone else, but my faith isn't a crutch at all

Then why do you need it at all,i dont and get by just dandy,just minus the fairy tales.


The fact that you said "like I thought" gives me the impression that you were expecting nothing. My experience in life is that most times, I get what I'm expecting. In other words, you found what you were looking for. Nothing. "Seek and ye shall find" Seek nothing and ye shall find nothing.

(Atheist mode switched to off)
Have to say i like your answer BH,and to add God knows ones heart if its for Him or not.
(Atheist mode switched to on)


You didn't do anything wrong. As with anything in life, the first time (or the first few times) someone does something, they might not quite get the hang of it. Practice makes perfect.

So your admitting that then from this statement that you are fabricated.
Which is why i said earlier that its something thats just handed down from generation to the next.



Tell me this. If your child got lost and you searched for him that night, would you wake up the next day and say, "Well, I tried. Didn't find him."?

But the difference is that i have proof that i have a son to look for.


Another example is a mate. If you felt that a mate could possibly add richness and joy to your life, would you go out and look one evening and then give up because you didn't find him or her?

As a male my natural instincts or urges lead me to find women,if it weren`t for that i think i`d throw rocks at them.They only seem to take rich`s.So what need is there for an imaginary dude in the sky to me.


Again, in my experience it's the same type of 'knowing' I felt when I realized that I loved my husband. I just knew. Could I explain it? Not really.

OK fair enough,i was sort of hoping in a stupid way you may be able to explain or have some personal proof,because i would need it to believe it first.


(This is true) Yes. When I was about 12-13, I decided to dedicate my life to Christ and I was saved and baptized in my church. I had been going to church, Sunday School and bible school so I knew all the bible stories and one time as they held the benediction after the service, I felt TOTALLY drawn to go forward and ask Jesus into my heart and my life. There's no way I could have stayed in my seat that day. I needed to turn my life over to him. I knew I had sinned and I wanted to be forgiven and live a better life and, yes, I wanted to go to heaven when I died.

So I went up and knelt at the alter and prayed. I asked Jesus to come into my life, to fill my life with his presence, to forgive my sins and to help me along the path he'd chosen for me. I cried like a baby! It was a true watershed moment in my life. I was saved. And after that, I was blessed with the joy of having a personal relationship with Jesus.

The following Sunday, I was baptized in front of the whole church (it was a Baptist church, so yes it was a full baptism) and my sins were washed away and I had the promise of forgiveness and everlasting life.

(Atheist mode switched to off)
I quoted this in its entirety because this is exactly how one does come to and know God as i`m sure you do BH even if you have now distanced yourself,and if an adult cant have the same heart as BH did as a child its not enough for God,one must be willing to die and loose ones life for it,and when the time is right one will know it.



(Jesus said)
2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.



BH i see now why you for the most part have been able to respond so well,yet would love to hear if this thread has been even a tiny benefit for your own belief in Christ and God.

I do not know what happened to your faith and belief,i dont believe you are finished with it or its gone too far away.From your above would make you my sister,we can pick our friends but we`re stuck with our family.Concern for wayward (which is very easy to do self included)family members is what loving family members do.


To tell you the truth, I don't have a firm idea or explanation of the Holy Spirit.

What I think of when I hear "Holy Spirit" is the spirit of God.

Good enough for me.


(Atheist mode switched to on)
What about that day at Pentecost? have you read the bible?wouldn`t a follower of Christ want what the first followers of Christ received?or was that just for them at that time to you?

The bible says Christ instructed his followers to stay and wait for the gift after he is gone,so you dont believe either that this gift is real or can be witnessed by others,i would think them a bunch of mental cases myself,talking in foreign tongues and tongues of Angels


It also goes on to say there are other gifts of the holy spirit,more bunk.Because we never hear about healing or prophesying and when we do its always a hoax by some wack job trying to get money out of people.





Just a thought,is it possible to receive the holy spirit first and then be baptized with water for repentance of sin?.


I can't say. Many Christians make all kind of hard and fast rules according to their interpretation of the bible as regards such things, but in my opinion, there is no set way to receive Christ. We could fumble and screw up totally, we can backslide and misunderstand, but if our heart is true (and God knows this), we will find our way.

(Atheist mode switched to off)
I like this answer also BH.

The Bible also tells us.....


46For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

So yes you can receive the Holy Spirit first.


It sits fine with me.
www.belowtopsecret.com...

I don't judge others' paths. I just don't.

(Atheist mode switched to on)
My question wasn`t referring to judging it was how does it sit right with you knowing that others have nearly the same stories?

Has this altered your belief in anyway or given you doubts that your way as you know it right.

For mine i think the christian religion is borrowed from others.Yet you guys walk around thinking you know it all.


That's all right.
I wish we had more responders to make it more interesting, but this is cool.


(Atheist mode switched to off)
You`ve done well by yourself BH.


To gps777 : Why do you demand physical proof of someone who is not of the physical?

(Atheist mode on)
More so to get you to realize your delusional,because BH there`s nothing there.


Do you demand proof of love from those in your life?

Yes sometimes.


Do you have faith in anything in your life? Remembering that faith is belief without proof.

Not if it doesn`t exist,no!

[edit on 17-1-2007 by gps777]



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 08:12 AM
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Originally posted by gps777
You dont realize your a bunch of zombies,that need freeing.


No, I don't realize this.
I dont feel a need for freeing, I feel free. Nothing is holding me down or back. I am free.



Then why do you need it at all,i dont and get by just dandy,just minus the fairy tales.


I don't think I do need it. As I have explained, my faith is a gift, an extra. I would also 'get by' in life without it. I'm just much happier and fulfilled this way. Plus I have the knowledge that after this life is over, there are even greater things to come.



So your admitting that then from this statement that you are fabricated.


I am fabricated? Excuse me? I'm not sure what you mean by that.



As a male my natural instincts or urges lead me to find women,if it weren`t for that i think i`d throw rocks at them.


I hate to say it but I can understand that. And just so we're clear, I can't convince you that my beliefs are right or that you should believe the same way that I do, so I won't push it. If you don't feel the inkling of a desire to find Christ, then my experience and information isn't going to change your opinion. I can only serve as an example.



OK fair enough,i was sort of hoping in a stupid way you may be able to explain or have some personal proof,because i would need it to believe it first.


Ok. I'll tell you of a specific proof (that really happened) of mine.

On the night my mother died (March 1st, 1988), I was nowhere as far as my faith. I never thought about it or practiced it. God was a non-issue. I never prayed and I didn't attend church. It just wasn't part of my life. My mother was obviosly dying -- in her last moments and my father asked for a moment alone with her. I went out on the back porch with a blanket wrapped around me in the cool but calm Arizona evening and sat on the step. My mother, who was a deeply religious woman, was about to die. If ever there was a time to pray, this was it. So I said, "God, if you're there and you're going to take my mother, please make it fast and take her peacefully."

At that instant, a COOL gust of wind blew into my blanket and it bellowed up, almost causing me to lose it. And as suddenly, it stopped and the blanket fell limp around me. As I walked back into the house, I knew He was going to take her home. Within 10 minutes, she was gone. Quickly and peacefully as we stood by her bed.

Now... as I said, this will probably not signify "proof" to you or anyone else. But it's solid gold proof to me of God's existence, his willingness to communicate with me and his love for me.

You see, if God came out and said to us all, "Hello!!! I'm here! Believe in me"! There'd be absolutely no need for faith, right? We wouldn't need to "believe" because we would ALL know. There is a beauty and value in the practice of faith itself that would not exist if God were to overtly make his presence known to everyone's satisfaction (which would take quite a lot for some people).



I quoted this in its entirety because this is exactly how one does come to and know God as i`m sure you do BH even if you have now distanced yourself...


(Christian mode off) Sounds like I won the debate!


Seriously, while I'm not at all religious and I consider myself agnostic leaning toward atheist, I am a very spiritual person. I don't hold a belief about God, but I believe strongly in the supernatural, which is my explanation for what happened the night of my mother's death. I believe in life after death, but I don't think it has anything to do with a God or that there are several places we go after we die. That may explain why you get the hit that I'm an undercover Christian.




BH i see now why you for the most part have been able to respond so well,yet would love to hear if this thread has been even a tiny benefit for your own belief in Christ and God.


Of course this thread has been beneficial to me, but my beliefs have not changed.



Concern for wayward (which is very easy to do self included)family members is what loving family members do.


This is the sweetest thing. Thank you for your concern and your willingness to express it.

(Christian mode on)



wouldn`t a follower of Christ want what the first followers of Christ received?or was that just for them at that time to you?


Yes, I have read the bible. And yes, I VERY MUCH want that for everyone! But as I have said, 'pushing' is not the way. Pushing against a closed door only helps to keep it closed. One must stand back and allow the other person to open the door from within. This is my firm belief about witnessing to others. When the person opens the door, I'm there, offering anything I can do to help them in their search for Christ and the joys that salvations brings to one's life. But I will not push as it's counterproductive to my (and, I believe God's) wants and desires for them.



so you dont believe either that this gift is real or can be witnessed by others,


Oh, it's real... and it can be witnessed by others, but only if they have their eyes open. And I cannot open their eyes for them. Have you ever reached out and tried to physically open someone's eyes while they wanted to keep them shut?
When they themselves open their eyes, they will see.



Has this altered your belief in anyway or given you doubts that your way as you know it right.


No. There are many paradoxes and other ideas that we don't have the capability (with our earthly minds) to understand. I know my truth. That's all I need. I don't need to reconcile it with others' beliefs. And if it is shared with other religions, that's fine, too.



Yet you guys walk around thinking you know it all.


Really? Do I sound like I know it all?



More so to get you to realize your delusional,because BH there`s nothing there.


If, IF there's nothing there, then yes, I am delusional. But you know what? My faith makes me a better person. Even if I have faith in fantasy, I am a more loving, open-hearted, generous and humble person because of it. I reach out to others and help when I can. I like who I am and I KNOW without question that I'm doing the right thing, even if the existence of Jesus in my life is a delusion.

Which it's not.


So, if I'm delusional, when I die, I'll turn to dust with the rest of you. But my life will have been fuller, more loving and more wonderful BY FAR than it would have been elsewise. So, as I see it, I have nothing to lose and EVERYTHING to gain.



Edited spelling

[edit on 17-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 08:31 AM
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BH you're too good at this, how am I meant to come up with a counter argument? I wish we had someone do the side of a muslim or a hindu perhaps, rather than just BH's (very convincing, almost too convincing) Christian viewpoint.

I'm happy to say if we've finished that I lost the debate.



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 09:19 AM
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Originally posted by apex
BH you're too good at this, how am I meant to come up with a counter argument?


Thank you. You are all worthy opponents.




I wish we had someone do the side of a muslim or a hindu perhaps


I do, too. Just a different person than me, even. The reason I picked Christian is that I do know so much about it. I would do other religions if I knew more about them. The thing is that I would debate those religions (as well as my own spiritual beliefs) with the same attitude and arguments because that's who I am. And that's why I don't try to knock Christians off their positions. I will argue with them when they try to tell me that they're right and everyone else (including me) is wrong, but I don't tell them that they're wrong or argue their beliefs. I respect people's right to their beliefs, even though my beliefs are very different.

And I must admit that I have a secret wish that certain Christians out there would learn something from what I've said in this thread. The way most Christians debate their beliefs with people, they come off as arrogant, holier-than-thou know-it-alls... Not really an effective way to draw others to your way of thinking, if that's your goal. Anger and offense is almost ALWAYS involved. And you'll notice I never once got angry or offended, neither did I offend your "atheist" beliefs.

That's key, people...
If you're out there reading this, please think about that.



I'm happy to say if we've finished that I lost the debate.


I'm happy to say that, too...



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 09:49 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The way most Christians debate their beliefs with people, they come off as arrogant, holier-than-thou know-it-alls... Not really an effective way to draw others to your way of thinking, if that's your goal.


Ohh YEAH? Sez you.


Y'all have been doing a very good job with this. Big
to ET for the idea.

BH, there for awhile I thought you might be channelling CS Lewis.



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 10:30 AM
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What a fantastic thread! This is awesome.

I want to play too, but I don't know which side to argue. I believe in GOD so I suppose I should be an atheist, yet I am certainly non-Christian and I might have something to gain by debating as a Christian. Then again that's already been done.

I could debate as a Buddhist, that would oppose, to some degree (but not entirely), what I currently believe.

Anyone have any advice?

Anyone ready to debate a believer's point of view against my new non-believer status?



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 10:40 AM
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wellwhatnow - Do you have a religion? Go to church? If you believe in God, you should probably take the atheist stance. And debate someone like me, but I'm tired for now.

Any other atheists out there willing to take on a God-believing personna for the benefit of honing your debating skills? What Mirthful Me says is true. If you can successfully debate the 'other side', you can even better debate your own side. It's a great exercise!

Actually, a real Christian could debate their real beliefs against you, too. That might be fun.

Anyone???

[edit on 17-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 11:11 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Actually, a real Christian could debate their real beliefs against you, too. That might be fun.

Anyone???



I'd go for that, but I'm not sure I can be described as a real Christian anymore, as I base my beliefs on it, but not totally. I'd argue that god exists, but I couldn't do it for the basis of Christianity being the only true way really.



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 01:03 PM
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I do have a religion, I am a Unitarian Universalist and I go to church almost every Sunday. I don't have a Christian concept of the person of God though. It is important to UUs to have a broad spiritual experience and see other's points of view on spirituality.

In reality I see God as a force, not a sentient being. So, I'll argue for atheism or Christianity (or something else if anyone has any ideas).
Any takers?



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 01:07 PM
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I'm not ignoring the thread, or the posts. I just havn't had time to read through the last 2 pages entirely. I'll do so later this evening and get caught up.

sorry for falling behind guys, I'm sure you guys will give me stuff to think about!

Thanks,
john



posted on Jan, 17 2007 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Wolf

: Originally posted by Selmer2
Jesus was a Nordic / Human alien hybrid. ... alien abduction were Mary recieved artifical insemination. ...Jesus was an alien he had technology like telepathic mind control, ability to disintergrate matter into energy and vise versa, inbuild anti grav, a time travel device to fake resurrection and a multi dimensional travel device. See very simple.



And people say my beliefs are far out!

Just joshing with ya.


I assuming you know im David Icke's son

[edit on 17-1-2007 by Selmer2]




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