America: Show Radical Islam No Mercy

*if a mod moves this thread, then mod U2U me and send me the link*

Radical islamists are taught to fight for ideals. They are taught to fight to the death for their beliefs, and that to die for their beliefs is a great honor. From the moment they enter into this "training" they are raised with the idea that if they die for their cause, that it is their destiny and they should be proud and ready to do that.

Western kids are trained to fight..and go home. They are told to go do their duty, serve their country, and when it's all said and done..come home to a happy family and a blue collar life (if the poor suckers make it back at all). We are told to STAND UP for what we believe in...but we are never told to die for those morals that we hold dear to us. In fact most americans avoid death like the plague. We have no sense of what it is to die for a moral belief.

The problem is that in these middle east countries, they live in total and utter poverty. Even in america, if you go up to a homeless bum on the street and tell him "take this bomb, and go blow yourself up in front of that mall"....he won't do it. Here's a person with no money, no job, and nothing really to live for. But as bad as his life is, he won't kill his self because even in the lowest forms of poverty in america, there is a certain standard of living. In the countries that breed these terrorists, there is NO standard of living. The poorest person in america, on their worst day, will NEVER have it as bad as some of these war torn countries. That is why it's so easy for radical islam to succeed in those countries. It's very easy to sell a poor muslim kid the idea of dying for something great. it's easy to say "look at the evil america and how she is fat with wealth. take this bomb and blow yourself up to make her feel the pain we feel every day".

This is why the War on Terror will NEVER be won the way it's being fought now. People don't understand we can't fight these people the "normal" way..because we are not fighting a resistance, we are fighting ideals and moral beliefs. How can you expect to win against an opponent who considers it his greatest honor to die for his cause? By occupying iraq we are doing nothing but creating more terrorists. We are giving these stupid muslims more reason to hate us, and essentially "proving" that they are right for thinking this way about us. At the end of the day if the war ended tomorrow, our solders would come home and live their lives...but those poverty stricken muslims would STILL be living just as crappy as they were when the war was happening. So therefore, why stop the war? In their minds, their lives will be just as bad before as it will be after, but at least while the americans are there...they can kill those people who they hate.

There is only 2 ways we can win against these people. The first is by brining their entire standard of living up. If we continue to let they entire middle east be a third world war zone, terrorists will always exist. The only way to get rid of the terrorists is by giving them a reason to live. IF they had the types of things we have here, and had at least SOME basic standard of living (even for the extremely poor) then it would be harder to convince people to kill themselves for anything. The only way the middle east will start to work is if we bring a basic standard of living to their society. As long as half their country is a desert, and their people have no money or food or anything to really keep them going in life..then they will always fight and die for their cause, and they will always win. They will endlessly spawn, generation after generation, beacuse they have no reason to stop.

The second way to fight terrorists however, is not for the squeamish. We need to take action people it's time to take the damn kid gloves off. If america doesn't wake up and realize that these radical muslims and terrorists are the greatest threat we ever faced, then america as a nation is the stupidest nation on earth. We have to hit them harder. No mercy for these people. Drop some nukes, get a bigger infantry on the ground and kill everything. That is the only thing they will respect. If we train our army to be more ruthless, and we stop pretending like we have to be democratic, THEN we will finally see some progress.

The longer we sit there and just occupy the country..the more we play into their beliefs. But if we woke up tomorrow and said "enough is enough"..and started slaughtering them brutally and making it clear that we will NEVER tolerate their radical extremist ways, then we would start to see a change. Peace and good diplomacy will not solve the type of problem we see in the middle east. THEY DON'T WANT DEMOCRACY. Sanctions will get us NOWHERE.

That is why saddam was the powerful and respected man that he was in that region. He was a ruthless and brutal dictator that showed no mercy...and he kept his country in check for almost 20 years. Iraq wasn't the clusterbump that it is today..and it's all thanks to saddams brutal and violent ways. So until we train the army to be more violent than these muslims, we won't win. We need to stop backing down on countries like Iran and show them that we mean business. .

We have got to wake up and stop letting these muslims walk all over us. flip Iran. I wish bush would nuke them out of existence for their constant disrespect. Unfortunately in this situation, the only way to peace is by a level of violence that stupid squeamish americans are unready to deliver.

If we start wiping out these areas that these terrorist breed in...we will gain respect. Once we have established ourselves, we need to bring wealth to their economy and some kind of standard of living. Yeah a lot of innocent people will die but in the end we might finally bring stability to the middle east. If anything...we'll just get rid of a place that serves the world no purpose anyway. Come on america stop being so goody goody and rise up and show no mercy to these people. it's now or never..because in another 50 years when the next generation is in the ME and they remember what the evil america did to it's country and their occupation...they will pull a terrorist incident that will make 9/11 look like patty cake. This war will NOT be won by the squeamish. It will only be won by those who have the courage and guts to fight fire with fire.

Destroy and rebuild...it's the only way to truly win against terrorism.

so burn the middle east to the ground?


you know, we could just provide aid to the nations in trouble, using soft power

damn, why does everything have to be military?

soft power can be just as effective

if we rid the middle east of excessive poverty, it'll help
and probably be cheaper

As long as western militaries treat alleged terrorism as a military measure instead of actual criminal investigations the swathes of innocent bystanders killed and maimed in alleged anti-terror military action instantly become martyrs for violent efforts in revenge and also create support for such violence.

This is why the USA and any other country treating terrorism as a "war" have failed miserably in their tactics against this problem they allege to have.

Spawwwn. I will end my reply typing my opinion that you are out of your mind and well on the way to supporting the destruction of a large swathe of humanity for something I can only call a type of barbarous imperial bloodlust flowing through your veins.

[edit on 26-12-2006 by Frith]

No more coffee for you...

So we need to realize that these Muslims want to be brutally dictated over, and whoever "disrespects the US" should have their country blown to glass...

And ironically, you call the Muslims the terrorists...

I will also add, that even if Iran would be building nuclear weapons over there, I feel they are closer to justification everytime I hear/read someone saying stuff like this. If everyone wanted to blow me up, I sure would do what it takes to deter the threat.

[edit on 12/26/06 by niteboy82]

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you know, we could just provide aid to the nations in trouble,

With all the oil money Saudi Arabia has, and Bahrain, and Kuwait, and the rest ... THEY can help their Middle Eastern neighbors much better than the Middle Class American tax payer who is already overburdened with too many taxes to pay. My tax money is better spent (and SHOULD BE spent) on failing schools here in America; on raising up the poor in the Apalachias; on getting medical care to the elderly on fixed incomes; etc etc ... instead of liberating countries on the other side of the world.

Seriously though .. I agree with you in that there are most likely other ways than using military force to get things accomplished in the Middle East and Indonesia (etc). Military force isn't working well. It's time to try something else. (but not giving my tax money away - we need it here)

ff, the money we spend on military intervention would be a bit more than what we'd spend on aid and assistance to foreign governments

and it's not like we send a huge sum of money to the richest nation in the region every year already (i'll give you a hint, it's something like the 14th richest nation in the world and isn't majority muslim)

Kids gloves off... you have done everything short of nuking them and are still loosing... If you nuke Iraq I would not blame a single nation in the world for wipingthe USA off the map, and I do live in the USA. I still cannot blame them.
There is a time for peace and a time for war, most wars can be avoided easily just by undermining your opponent by pulling their support away. Want to stop "terrorists?" How about stop bombing people into the stone age for starters, then lift sanctions that PREVENT medical aid from going in, then send grain and medical supplies directly to civilian run organizations (which you should be protecting) so they can distribute the goods and patch wounds. When is it a time for war? When you have an enemy who is so strong you cannot challange them peaceably and whenever you do they mock you or attack you. When peace fails to stop someone then turn to war, not war then peace.
I cannot blame Iran for attempting to get nukes, should that statement be true considering all the threats they get either openly or subversely.

Okay.. There are two or three things that need to be addressed here. I neither completely agree nor completely disagree with what you are saying,Spawwn. First late me point out something that, unfortunately, I think is an inevitability in this "war on terrorism."

Drop some nukes, get a bigger infantry on the ground and kill everything. That is the only thing they will respect.

Unfortunately,I think that the "droppng of the nuke" will be the ultimate end game to the "war on terrorism." It may not happen in ten years or even twenty, but ultimatelly it will happen. The sorry part is that a bunch of innocent and decent people are destined to die in the scenario,

One of the things that I did disagree with was this comment here:

We are giving these stupid muslims more reason to hate us, and essentially "proving" that they are right for thinking this way about us.

"Stupid" by whose standards? Have you looked at the average IQ scores in the "Christian" United States of America? It's not really something to be admired. It falls within the 85-100 range. Muslims are no more ignorant than any other people; they may be more indoctrinated than other groups of people are, but that doesn't necessarily imply ignorance, only circumstance.

Destroy and rebuild..

Sure.

That has been America's problem. We go in and bomb the hell out of people and then help them rebuild it. What message does that send?

You seem to imply,Spawwn, that this is all a matter of poverty. I don't buy that notion at all. I look at radical Islam as being a matter of indoctrination. They are taught a twisted version of Islam and they live it day in and day out. You are very much correct that they fight for ideals. Where does this notion of poverty enter into your equation?

THEY DON'T WANT DEMOCRACY.

You know this how? What,because we are having problems in Iraq? First, if you are so up to date on this subject, then surely you know that the resistence that we are en#ering in Iraq has little to do with the will of the Iraqi people and more to do with the desire of the outside influences of Iran and Syria. How can they "want" Democracy when no such "animal" has existed in the Middle East, excluding Israel? It is debateable as to whether Israel can be considered a Democracy.

Democracy, at least that which would be recognized by us as such, will probably never exist in the Middle East. Hell, George W. has even stated that. The Democracy that they are trying to implement in Iraq is not representative of what we have in the States.

[edit on 26-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 26-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Here is the problem that I see with completely wiping the region out with airstrikes, either nuclear or conventional. You wipe a country or two out in the Middle East, the hatred for the United States wil just keep growing. Keep bombing Middle Eastern countries, the hatred will continue growing. That hatred will keep growing until some terrorist decides to take their pent up aggression out on either the United States or one of our allies. Not only are you killing thousands of innocents who really have no idea as to why their home country is being bombed "Back into the stone age" as you might put it. Not only that, you could also be endangering the lives of countless others from other countries that just happen to be there. That can happen in any country at any given time, daytime or nite.

Let me just say this, what would happen to a Middle Eastern country if someone detonated a dirty bomb here in the United States? Nowadays, that country would be wiped off the face of the Earth. That is the mentality of political leaders now. You do something to us, we may do it back only ten times as worse. After 9-11 when we were going to bomb Afghanistan, do you think those people realized what was going on until we showed up with our bombs and airplanes? The innocent civilians that have been killed
there probably weren't even involved with terrorists in the first place. That, however, brings me back to my first point in this post. You bomb a Middle Eastern country, again, it will breed even more hatred.

With all of the technology that has went into the modernization of the military in the past fifty years, it is appauling that we are still talking about civilians deaths. During World War II, for example, you could have killed thousands of civilians in one single air raid. That was due to the bombs being unguided into targets on top of the carpet bombing that was still in use during that time of the 20th Century. Surprisingly enough, terrorism has been used in fighting wars before. This was especially during Vietnam when the Viet Cong recruited people to kill as many U. S. troops as they could have when they would come into a village. Villagers that were recruited would use either hand grenades or military issued explosions that the V. C. issued to them. Whenever, the villagers were close to the troops, they would pull either the pin of the grenade or light a small fuse that was attached to the explosives.

The unfortunate thing about this is that the current administration is afraid to just sit down and talk it out. With the mentality that this administration has towards radicals, albeit muslim or not, it is a very hardline stance on it. They think that everything must be solved with force, when it cannot in a majority of cases. This is why we are loosing the War on Terror in Iraq against the insurgency. Those people come in and see us start to bomb what is their homeland, that's when they start to get angry. With the ingenious idea to send more troops over to Iraq, that is just asking for more terrorists to go into Iraq. More troops + more terrorists = one biggest military disasters in history.

If this were a different administration, the President would at least try and have a chat with the enemy. This Gun-ho President simply refuses to do the smart thing because he cannot comprehend politics outside of the White House. It's policy like this that has gotten three thousand American troops killed, scores of British and troops from other countries, and tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians masacred on their own streets. I heard somewhere that there have been nearly twenty thousand, maybe more, Iraqi civilians killed since this started. The bloodshed is going to continue if this administration won't get their head's out of their

I am afraid that if this 'War on Terror' continues the way it has been going for three plus years now, the political ramifications would be irreversible. This administration has already destroyed what bit of respect we had in the Middle East when Clinton was in office. In my opinion, quite frankly, this administration does not give a damn nor will it ever give a damn about the civilian toll in other countries.

i wasnt going to reply to this topic
but gimmefootball400 great reply

You have voted gimmefootball400 for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
ff, the money we spend on military intervention would be a bit more than what we'd spend on aid and assistance to foreign governments

I'd still rather see it all go towards Americans .. all that money mishandled during this war in Iraq ... all the foreign aid money ... everything! Spend it here at home. God knows we need it!!! Our schools, our elderly medical care, our infrastructure ....

But in general .. I think I agree with you that what is happening now isn't working.

Well, I won't keep you long, but I have to point out a glaring error in the thinking of the OP.

Most of the 9/11 hijackers were actually from well off families. Poverty is not as widespread as you think it is. OBL himself is from an exceedingly well off family.

In fact, prior to the invasion, Iraqi standard of living wasn't all that bad, on the whole. Prior to 1991, it was arguably as good as many Western countries. The Health service in Iraq was superb.

Sanctions imposed by the West brought hardship to Iraq and the subsequent invasion brought the poverty of which you speak.

As for other ME countries, standard of living is more than acceptable for the vast majority of people. It may seem chaotic and alien to you or I, but that is their culture.

Many people, relatively speaking, have a good life. Countries such as Jordan, SA, Yemen et al all have a strong middle class. Even Iran and Syria are relatively well off, comparitively speaking.

The average man might only earn $10k/year, but cost of living is proportionally lower.

Also, consider the 7/7 bombers. Each one a well off, middle class, British born Muslim. Poverty played no part in their thinking. The behaviour of Western countries towards their people did.

Poverty is not the issue. If you actually listen to what these dudes say in their "Martyrdom" Videos, they give you clear and concise reasons why they do this.

But people like you and our monkey brained leaders continue to say "they hate our freedoms" or "they despise our way of life".

They might not agree with Pornography or drinking, but their reasoning is much deeper than that. What they despise is the way they have been treated over the years and the way we think we can dictate to them now.

I think you'll find that a complete withdrawl of forces from the ME, an even handed approach to the Israeli-Palestinian problem and maybe a hug will go alot further than "Yeeehaaa! Lets bomb them Ragheads!!""

As you quite clearly said, killing them just creates martyrs and furthers their cause. Stop killing them, stop dictating to them, stop interferring in their countries and stop blindly supporting Israeli in whatever it does and I guarantee the problem will evaporate.

Without a raison d'etre, ie: the perceived Imperialism of the West over Muslim people, the terrorists will have no grounds for recruitment.

It's such a bloody simple concept to grasp. Stop killing them and they will stop killing you.

ok let's look closely at the OP here...

Radical islamists are taught to fight for ideals. They are taught to fight to the death for their beliefs, and that to die for their beliefs is a great honor. From the moment they enter into this "training" they are raised with the idea that if they die for their cause, that it is their destiny and they should be proud and ready to do that.

Kicksays: this is a simplistic view of complex problem. Many such 'rads' in say the Palestinian enclaves have had mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, children killed, blown up, shot while sitting in class etc. In this context it's a little easier to see how someone becomes 'radicalised' when you have nothing left to live for except burning hatred for those who took away your family. I'm not justifying it just trying to show it's not this simple.

next

Western kids are trained to fight..and go home. They are told to go do their duty, serve their country, and when it's all said and done..come home to a happy family and a blue collar life (if the poor suckers make it back at all). We are told to STAND UP for what we believe in...but we are never told to die for those morals that we hold dear to us. In fact most americans avoid death like the plague. We have no sense of what it is to die for a moral belief.

Kicksays: western military are told to fight and die and have done so to the last man if necessary and against the odds. The military esprit du corps doctrine creates this.

Plus most civilians in Iraq, Lebanon etc also 'avoid death like the plague' don't they? Or is it non-american radicals flock to death like moths like a flame?

Even in america, if you go up to a homeless bum on the street and tell him "take this bomb, and go blow yourself up in front of that mall"....he won't do it.

Kick: Can you give a bomb to a homeless bum in Iraq and tell himself to blow himself up and he does it willingly? I doubt it.

because we are not fighting a resistance, we are fighting ideals and moral beliefs

Kick: we are fighting a resistance, that's the problem. To any occupied nation, the occupiers are seen as the bad guys, word, end of.

We are giving these stupid muslims more reason to hate us

Kick: stupid muslims? you clearly have a problem OP and should read the posting guidelines. Mod take note.

There is only 2 ways we can win against these people. The first is by brining their entire standard of living up. If we continue to let they entire middle east be a third world war zone, terrorists will always exist. The only way to get rid of the terrorists is by giving them a reason to live. IF they had the types of things we have here, and had at least SOME basic standard of living (even for the extremely poor) then it would be harder to convince people to kill themselves for anything. The only way the middle east will start to work is if we bring a basic standard of living to their society. As long as half their country is a desert, and their people have no money or food or anything to really keep them going in life..then they will always fight and die for their cause, and they will always win. They will endlessly spawn, generation after generation, beacuse they have no reason to stop.

kick: the country will remain a desert I'm sure. they won't continously spawn, this wasn't going on before the invasion, yes there were other problems then of course but the level of daily violence did not exist. Handing these people western lives and western values and western goods and 'democracy' western style is wrong because this is another culture, another way of life, another way of doing things. If you force democracy onto a people then can that truly be called democracy?

No mercy for these people. Drop some nukes, get a bigger infantry on the ground and kill everything.

kick: nazify the USA? That's what the OP is saying here isn't it? It didn't work for the Nazis and it won't work for America. Kill everything? How on earth can that be any kind of solution to any kind of problem?

If we start wiping out these areas that these terrorist breed in...we will gain respect.

kick: no you won't you will be hated the world over.

Frankly your post is astonishingly ignorant and I cannot believe a MOD hasn't come down on you sunshine!

This is so wrong I don't know where to start.
This crap doesn't even work in second grade, let alone in the real world.

Lets put it this way - if I beat some family member of yours over the head with a baseball bat in response to this post, would it make you "respect" me, or simply hate me and determined to get revenge?

Would it change your political opinion?

This is why the "get tough" approach fundamentally fails - some people will respond to bullying by caving in and giving up.
But others respond by "getting tough" themselves.

Don't you think that people like Bin Laden had it in their head that they needed to "get tough" with the West - hence 9-11.

On 9-11 the fanatics took the kid gloves off, hit us with everything they've got. Did it scare us into backing down? Or did it make us that much more determined to wipe them out?

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Destroy and rebuild...it's the only way to truly win against terrorism.

If that's your solution for "destroying" terrorism, then will it also apply to the IRA, Red Army, KKK, various gangs such as the Crips, and Nagaland Rebels?

If this is your solution, then you're advocating for a movement to bomb every country in the world , including cities in the US with gang problems, poverty, and high levels of violence.

When you kill all of these citizens, who is left to replace them?

[edit on 27-12-2006 by DJMessiah]

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Destroy and rebuild...it's the only way to truly win against terrorism.

Why should we bother re-building the middle east?

Let's just nuke it and forget it.

Originally posted by kickoutthejams
kick: nazify the USA? That's what the OP is saying here isn't it? It didn't work for the Nazis and it won't work for America. Kill everything?

Actually there were many nazi supporters in the US during WWII. We could have just as easily joined the nazi's, in which case genocide could have succeeded.

Give genocide a chance.

[edit on 27-12-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Give genocide a chance.

Deuteronomy 7:2
'The Hittites, Girga#es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites. You must put them all under the curse of destruction. Show them no pity.'



Deuteronomy 7:5, 12:3
'Instead, treat them like this: tear down their altars, smash their sacred stones, burn down their sacred poles, and hack to pieces the statues of their gods.'




Deuteronomy 20:16-17
'And you must not spare the life of any living thing. Lay them under the curse of destruction: Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, as Yahweh your God has commanded you.'




Deuteronomy 7:16
'Devour all the people whom Yahweh your God puts at your mercy. Show them no pity. Furthermore, Yahweh will send hornets after those who survive and hide from you until they are all destroyed.'

in nothing, your playful use of the brick testament should earn you a way above, however, i have run out for this month

yeah
genocide is a great and effective (if morally reprehensible) way to solve a problem

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
in nothing, your playful use of the brick testament should earn you a way above, however, i have run out for this month

yeah
genocide is a great and effective (if morally reprehensible) way to solve a problem

It is the North American way. Ask an Aboriginal person, if you can find one easily. Hey, this isn't anti-US, our history has shown that we have done the same. I'm not promoting genocide in any way but it seems like how we deal with, "what we want". :shk: