God, the divine liar

Originally posted by darkelf
In a world where rules and laws appear as mere annoyances to most, the idea of obedience being a requirement to stay in the garden of Eden seems most unfair. But God said that to love Him is to obey Him. Disobedience is a selfish act. Where evil would embrace disobedience, pure goodness or holiness cannot abide it. The point of the Eden story is to show how mankind, given the choice or obedience or disobedience, chose disobedience. Through man’s disobedience, he was no longer perfect. God gave us redemption to that perfect state through Jesus.

Evil would have let us all remain in the state of imperfection. Good offers us another choice. Evil would control us through our own selfish impulses. Good offers us the opportunity to reclaim our spiritual perfection. Religion that seeks to control is evil. Religion or spirituality that encourages us to be selfless and devoted to love is the message of Jesus.

Those who wish to remain selfish and self centered look upon the requirement of obedience as evil. Obedience to God has nothing to do with church, morality or laws. Obedience to God is how one shows their love for Him.


[edit on 12/26/2006 by darkelf]

God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think for yourself, let me run your life"
The fallen angel says " Seek knowledge, think for yourself, do not blindly follow anyone"

Now looking back through history at those we considered tryants and evil men, whose philosophy is more like the totalitarian tryant, God or the fallen angel ?

Originally posted by RWPBR
God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think for yourself, let me run your life"
The fallen angel says " Seek knowledge, think for yourself, do not blindly follow anyone"

Now looking back through history at those we considered tryants and evil men, whose philosophy is more like the totalitarian tryant, God or the fallen angel ?

The fallen angel acting LIKE a god.

Originally posted by intrepid
That's the problem of taking the Bible literally. SoT has it right imo. They were cast from God's presence and in that day they began to die, not before they ate the fruit.

There's also a passage that reads, "A 1000 years are as a day to the Lord." Don't ask me where it is, my religious days are decades behind me.

But, if you want to believe God is a liar, no amount of words on a website will change your mind. You've got issues with Him.

all im saying is i think god is a liar. im not trying to get anyone to convince me hes not. its just interesting to see how other people see god as in their lives.

in my life... god is almost non existant, i fail to see how god can be everywhere at the same time while he is in heaven. sounds like a lie to me


[edit on 28-12-2006 by conspiracymaster]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by RWPBR
God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think for yourself, let me run your life"
The fallen angel says " Seek knowledge, think for yourself, do not blindly follow anyone"

Now looking back through history at those we considered tryants and evil men, whose philosophy is more like the totalitarian tryant, God or the fallen angel ?

The fallen angel acting LIKE a god.

Or a liberator freeing man from a vain, tyranical megalomaniac who created man for the sole purpose of worshiping him under penalty of death.

Originally posted by RWPBR
God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think for yourself, let me run your life"

God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think only OF yourself, but think of others and help them.

God does not say let me run your life, He says let me assist you in your life. I can give you strength when you are weak, I can give you comfort when you hurt.

The fallen angel says " Seek knowledge, think for yourself, do not blindly follow anyone"

The fallen angel says don’t listen to others, do what YOU want. It’s all about you! Laws and rules are made to oppress you. You have a right to do whatever you want.

Now looking back through history at those we considered tryants and evil men, whose philosophy is more like the totalitarian tryant, God or the fallen angel ?

I would say it is evil men who chose the path of selfishness. Those who seek the total power of being a god without the compassion for others follow the fallen angel.

Those who truly follow God operate on a principal of love and compassion.

The evil parents set down rules for their children. They tell their child to obey. The good friend tells the child that their parents are only trying to oppress them and that the child should do whatever he wants to do. The child ends up in jail. The evil parents are full of heartache. The good friend has moved on to another target. But it’s all good ‘cause the child did what they wanted.

Some people sure like to exaggerate the scale of the limits that our Creator established for us. They try to make it seem as though God is telling human beings what we must do every moment of our lives. THAT is the lie! The Lord only gave us a few commandments to keep, and beyond that all human beings are free to follow their heart. That is why He gave us freewill and imagination.

For our own happiness and well-being God set a few limits that are intended to help us to avoid the things that lead to suffering and destruction. Considering all of the wonderful things that creativity can produce through our imaginations, the degree to which the tiny number of God-given rules reduce human ability to think and act for themselves is inconsequential. Human beings are free to do everything we want to do with a mere few exceptions, and even those handful of rules are not forced upon us but are left as our choice to accept or reject them.

Originally posted by darkelf

Originally posted by RWPBR
God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think for yourself, let me run your life"

God says "Worship me, obey me, do not think only OF yourself, but think of others and help them.

God does not say let me run your life, He says let me assist you in your life. I can give you strength when you are weak, I can give you comfort when you hurt.

The fallen angel says " Seek knowledge, think for yourself, do not blindly follow anyone"

The fallen angel says don’t listen to others, do what YOU want. It’s all about you! Laws and rules are made to oppress you. You have a right to do whatever you want.

Now looking back through history at those we considered tryants and evil men, whose philosophy is more like the totalitarian tryant, God or the fallen angel ?

I would say it is evil men who chose the path of selfishness. Those who seek the total power of being a god without the compassion for others follow the fallen angel.

Those who truly follow God operate on a principal of love and compassion.

The evil parents set down rules for their children. They tell their child to obey. The good friend tells the child that their parents are only trying to oppress them and that the child should do whatever he wants to do. The child ends up in jail. The evil parents are full of heartache. The good friend has moved on to another target. But it’s all good ‘cause the child did what they wanted.

Did the God of Abraham give us free will or were we born with it in spite of his wishes ? You make God out to be a benevolant "Grandafther" in the sky when in fact the Bible makes him out to be a vain, capricious, vengful,
egotistical, petty and warlike. He created us in his image and did so only to have something that would worship him. Why is God so insecure ? Were the angels is heavan also his creations or were they his peers ? If they were his creations then why wasnt their worship enough for him ? Perhaps Jahweh was in a fallen angel himself who was trying to cover up his deeds from the other angels. He never gave us his real name after all and never wanted to be seen by the masses. He sounds like somebody with something to hide. Maybe "Lucifer" was trying to expose Yahweh for what he was and tried to fix the mess that Yahweh created.

The fallen angel (lets call him Lucifer while remembering that Lucifer is a mistranslation in the KJV ) gave us knowledge of good and evil, like any good parent should yet God our father did NOT want us to have it. What good parent wants their children to be in a perputual state of ignorance ? What good parent want his children to be forever childlike and obediant ? He treated Adam and Eve more like pets than children... and how did he react to his pets getting such knowledge ? He punished them and threw them out of the garden to fend for themselves...very petty and small minded indeed for a first offence.

Had he been understanding and compassionate and taught us like children WHY good was right and evil was wrong and let us stay in the garden under his benevolant guidance how much better might we have turned out ? Did God kinow that once man had the knowledge of good and evil that he would no longer need the lawgiver ? Why does he give us free will and then punish us for using it ? Because he is vain and jealous and desires to be worshiped. Perhaps free will is an unavoidable side effect of the process of life and Yahweh had no choice in the matter. Does the Bible not tell us that obediance to God alone is meaningless and that we must above all Worship him ?

The Luciferian concept of light and gnosis is often confused with evil and darkness by faithful fundementalists who blindly obey. Perhaps I choose not to follow a vain, megalomaniacal God just as I choose not to follow a vain, megalomaniacal Politician.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
But they did die,no?

The Tree of Life was there because they had a choice. They could either choose knowledge or life. They chose knowledge over life.

This goes back to the assumption that they would have lived forever had they not chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Really we can't assume that they would have lived forever because we don't know that they were immortal to begin with. And we certainly can't say that they would definitely have eaten from the Tree of Life.

Yes, they chose knowledge. I would have done the same thing. I would much rather have knowledge and live 70 or 80 years than be ignorant and be immortal.

What reason would God have had not to punish them immediately for disobeying him? He does it repeatedly throughout the Bible. There are quite a few instances of it actually. You get one warning and if you don't straighten up and do as God wants you to do you are punished immediately or at least within a short time frame. Adam and Eve were not punished immediately with death, and it definitely was not a short time frame. They lived long enough to have children, for one child to kill another, get sent away and start his own family, (where did Cain's wife come from anyway ), and once they were old and gray then they died. Just as every living thing before and after them. Death at old age is not a punishment, it is the result of the aging process and the natural wear and tear the human body goes through. Now drowning in a flood because you were being "wicked" that's a punishment. Boils and plagues and locusts, those are punishments. Living until you are old and decrepit is not a punishment, its a blessing if anything.

im shocked not by you calling god a liar but you blame him for the problems we humans have created ourselves .CHOICE is the greatest gift god gave man and it is yours to do with it what you will ...that said it sounds as if you have made your choice but dont try and use YOUR logic to confuse others if your right great if not welllllll... its on you .You can argue the bibble or the version of the bibble all day long it comes down to this do you with your gift of choice believe or not?I have no hard feelings towards you either way you seem to like to make things more difficult than they are,do you think god has set some evil trap for you ?are you saying you do not unerstand?You know I sat down one day and wanted to know how the wind blew ,i cant see it , i dont know where it comes from soooo the answer is it just IS sorry no big magical theory or equation it just is.

Originally posted by conspiracymaster

all im saying is i think god is a liar. im not trying to get anyone to convince me hes not. its just interesting to see how other people see god as in their lives.

God is sooooooo much in my life that I can easily dissagree with you, and even agree with you at the same time!!!!! I don't believe God to be a liar, however God has allowed for certain things to remain "hidden".

Why? BECAUSE JESUS TOLD ME SO !!!!!!!!

1. Jesus Himself tells us that God deliberately hides certain information from some people while causing it to be understandable to other people:
"At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children."" (Matthew 11:25)

in my life... god is almost non existant, i fail to see how god can be everywhere at the same time while he is in heaven. sounds like a lie to me

Well, perhaps if you took JESUS into your heart and let him make the arguement for you, you might be armed with enough truth to win, and even find yourself closer to God.

Have a pleasant day,
john

[edit on 31-12-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

Originally posted by boaz1234do you think god has set some evil trap for you ?

actually yes. think about it for a second... one god one ruler of the universe? do you really think thats possible? if you were god would you even care about the WHOLE universe and everything in it??

i look at things from the probable and scientific viewpoint. alot of the crazy things god says are not very probable at all.

Originally posted by conspiracymaster

Originally posted by boaz1234do you think god has set some evil trap for you ?

actually yes. think about it for a second... one god one ruler of the universe?

Depends what the "rules" are. If we only had a model .....

do you really think thats possible?

What i think is less relevent than what simply is. So, yes.

if you were god would you even care about the WHOLE universe and everything in it??

I don't have to be god to care about the whole universe and everything in it. And, i already do.

i look at things from the probable and scientific viewpoint. alot of the crazy things god says are not very probable at all.

That is why it was a scientist who was first to say "miracle". It was easier to say miracle than to teach secrets of science to those who may in the future be enemies.

"miracle" was initially a cop-out by a scientist who did not want to answer the questions because the answers waisted his time, and people were not literate enough to read about it.

If only the scientist and the illiterate people cared less about themselves and more about the WHOLE universe and everything in it, perhaps we would be advancing at a more efficient pace, as the human race.

Originally posted by conspiracymaster
actually yes. think about it for a second... one god one ruler of the universe? do you really think thats possible? if you were god would you even care about the WHOLE universe and everything in it??

i look at things from the probable and scientific viewpoint. alot of the crazy things god says are not very probable at all.

Let me ask you. Does humanity attempt to rule over nature? Certainly... Why hold God to a different standard?

Yeah, I know the whole argument, "Well, God is supposed to be supreme and above human notions, and blah...blah...blah." I know. I know. However, if one is to believe that man is made in God's image, whether you take that as meaning physically or alternatively, this is the theory I adhere to, that God created us in the same spiritual form, then certainly you must leave some room for God to have some of the same tendencies as man. No?

It's Easy. God cannot lie, and wants to- and so created Satan to lie for him. Same as if I wanted to build a room, and couldn't, because I have no carpentry skills. I hire someone to do it for me.

Originally posted by Jenna

This goes back to the assumption that they would have lived forever had they not chose to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. Really we can't assume that they would have lived forever because we don't know that they were immortal to begin with. And we certainly can't say that they would definitely have eaten from the Tree of Life.

Well, I suppose it's a matter of what you believe. Science has pretty conclusively proven that the human body is designed to have the capability of living at least 200 years. Now, with that being said, whether we were ever meant to be immortal is an issue that is up for debate.

To me, the whole "placing on of skin" is literally just that. Perhaps, Adam and Eve's "sin" occurred before they were even in physical form. I don't know and neither does anyone else.