God, the divine liar

Perhaps the reason that there is such an apparent difference between the actions of God in the Old Testament and the New is that we are seeing God the Father in the Old, and God the Son in the New. The Father is the Divine Justice, whereas the Son is the manifestation of Divine Love. In the Old Testament we see God's justice and retribution for the offences of mankind, and in the New Testament we see God's love and mercy.

The Father is Just. The Son is forgiving.

[edit on 26-12-2006 by SkyWay]

There is no truth in the father. He has been a liar from the beginning.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
There is no truth in the father. He has been a liar from the beginning.

amen to that brother!

Originally posted by conspiracymaster

im not a bible expert, but any idiot can clearly see from reading a few paragraphs in certain chapters that God is contradicting and hypocritical at times.

Perhaps this is the biggest problem with said "idiots".

Perhaps the true "idiots" are those who select 2 or 3 sentences from the bible to provide "proof" of contradiction, while selecting to ignore millions of other sentences in the bible which validate there are not any contradictions.

It is like taking 2 or 3 definitions provided in a dictionary to prove that a language does not exist because it was written and edited by man, while omitting and ignoring every other definition of the dictionary.

Edited to add:
I hope this viewpoint makes some sense to the members reading this thread.


[edit on 26-12-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

theres no way that god is a liar im sorry but i have conflicting view with you

Originally posted by denynothing
theres no way that god is a liar im sorry but i have conflicting view with you

you make a point, a very absolute assertion
yet you do not back up your absolute statement

why do you believe that god is incapable of lies?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
the only reedemable thing from the Old Testament is the Ten Commandments, other than that, give me the New Testament gospel of Jesus Christ.

well even thats debateable!

I think the most important rule is The Golden Rule and yet that is conveniently displaced. Yanno, do unto others as you would have them do to you!

“Obey Thy Ten Commandments, Or Else”:

1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”. Deuteronomy 13:6-10, “If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is of thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. Thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God." Exodus 22:20 “He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed”. New Testament punishment - Mark 16:16 “He that believeth not, shall be damned”.

2nd. Commandment, Exodus 20:4 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water below.” Old Testament punishment- Deuteronomy 27: 1 5 “Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image.” That’s right kids don’t EVER draw, sculpt or paint or else god will curse you. Wanna be an artist, a photographer, take a picture of yourself or family? TOO BAD, God says no! You better drop out of art class before he smites you with boils.

3rd. Commandment, Exodus 20:7 “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, he shall surely be put to death”, New Testament punishment - Matthew 12:32 “Whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come”. Mark 3:29 - “He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgivness, but is in danger of eternal damnation”.

4th. Commandment, Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 31:15 “Whosoever shall work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death”. Numbers 15:32. “And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day…And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.”

5th. Commandment, Exodus 20:12 “Honour thy father and thy mother”. Old Testament punishment - Exodus 21:15-17 “And he that smiteth his father, or his mother, shall be surely put to death”. More punishment - Exodus 21:17 “And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death”.

6th. Commandment, Exodus 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill”. Strangely enough this is a commandment despite all the punishments that require death in the New Testament and the Old Testament. How can thou not kill when thou is commanded to kill at the same time?

7th. Commandment, Exodus 20:14 “Thou shalt not commit adultery”. Old Testament punishment - Leviticus 20:10 “And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death”.

Commandments

I will stick with the Golden Rule

1st. Commandment, Exodus 20:3 “Thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Old Testament punishment - Deuteronomy 17:1-5 “And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heavens, which I have not commanded. Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing and shalt stone them with stones, till they die”.

what god is trying to communicate as best as he can in the english language here is...

if you dont obey the lord you will be stoned to death.. or probably burned alive its up to the big guy. he sounds very much like a... how shall i put it... like a DICTATOR in the old testament!!

god is supposed to be a loving caring entity. or is that what he wants you to believe?

If god is a liar then we are all lies, and everything is a lie including the universe.
God is a creator, he sure likes to create things, I don't think he has time for lies, some one that lies is usualy some one that can't have things his way, or some one that wants something and can't get it, so one not that wise.
To obtain something sometimes we lie, since the creator of the universe can do anything it wants and has the knolege to do anything it thinks of then I would say that god does not need to lie.
It's us the people that lie, lies are the contrary to creation, some might say that lieing is creative because it involves imagination, but imagination is not a creation and it remains imaginary, it can never become a creation since everything is not true.
To create something you must speak the truth, creating a lie equals creating something that it isn't there, this is not the case for god, I belive the universe is living proof.





[edit on 27-12-2006 by pepsi78]

[edit on 27-12-2006 by pepsi78]

Originally posted by conspiracymaster
The behavior of "God" in Eden matches precisely what evil would have to do if its goal were to take over the human race and control it.

Thats a pretty clear statement, and of interest for Evangelical Christians to consider.
I have posted along these lines here.

Indeed the "God(s)" seem to be afraid of man, and not all so powerful.
It seems that they shortened the life span of man out of shear fear.
Kind of like what we will try to do when robots gain the same amount of consciousness as we do.

Consciousness you say? I have written extensively before about this topic, and how it intertwines with everything else said here.

Its nice to see others thinking along the same lines...perhaps more and more people will question, and there is more than enough info...as I have posted quite a few links hitting different aspects of this argument to try to bring it full circle.

Peace

dAlen

Indeed the "God(s)" seem to be afraid of man, and not all so powerful.
It seems that they shortened the life span of man out of shear fear.

Maybe there is something after this, another life? and the present one is just a test.
Maybe there is something greater than this after everything ends.
Hey no hard feeling but I would be afraid too if I didin't know what you were up to.
I would not just let you in to my house, first I would have to know who you are, maybe you could be a hazard to every one in my house, since I don't really know you.
I guess that is pretty logical to me, the only ones that make's it in to the house of god are the ones god knows, the ones that got has a relationship with them.
It's sort of, talk to me, I want to know you, okay you're allright you can come in, or no you can't come in, I don't really like you, it's my house after all isn't it?

Originally posted by marg6043
The day that people realized that the God of the bible is as human as the human that wrote the bible it will be the day that people will discover where the lie really came from.

Until then the biblical God will stay as divine as the minds of the ones that still support the lies.

In other words . . . as long as people keep humanizing and bringing human logic to God, the biblical God will always look like is contradicting itself, because we are all humans after all.

Excellent post marg6043. Just wanted to quote you as apparently either no one read it or they are ignoring it. It is impossible to understand God with human logic. Or as my mom used to say, "Stop trying to explain the infinite with finite logic."

Originally posted by conspiracymaster
i am not the on who is contradicting, god is the one who is contradicting. the bible is like a giant contradicting dictonary.

first god says man is made by god. man is made in the image and self likeess of "god". then WHY DOES GOD ALSO SAY

In whom the god of this world [Satan] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. II Cor 4:4

that sounds contradicting to me.

There is no contradiction there. Jesus Christ IS the image of God, and we were made in THAT image. We are not THE image, yet we resemble Him. I don't believe that is a direct literal meaning either. I think it's more of a metaphorical/spiritual statement rather than a literal one. To be made in God's image means, to me anyway, to have a like mind. We share the same basic desires as the other. It's all a matter of perspective though. You can choose to believe me or not, that is up to you.

TheBorg

Well said Darkelf.

How can GOD be a liar? How is that possible when he speaks it comes into exsistence? If God says cat poof there is a cat, if God says night is light and light is night. Guess what, thats how it is period. You have a total misconceptuion of who God is and the power of his word. It is totally impossible to be a liar if what you say comes into exsistence. Try again.

Anxiety Disorder wrote:

God is not a liar.........

The bible was written by men, then it was translated by men through the ages and changed to support the agenda of the day. It really isn't a book to be taken literally, but a document used to control the masses and be interpreted any way you see fit.
It's men that lie........

Sure many people take comfort in the words written in the bible, but they're just buying into the whole construct of control exerted on them by organized religion.

The world would be a lot better off without all this arguing over religion.
It's time to get over this belief in Santa Clause, the Easter Bunny, and God.

I think most people agree that the Bible cannot be taken seriously simply because it's been translated so many times. It no longer contains the original word of GOD as written down by man. Only dogma & doctrine.

I agree with what you wrote about the Bible but I certainly wouldn't make a claim that there is no GOD. Especially when my intuition and reasoning is telling me otherwise.

I dont believe in organized religion either and certainly dont understand why people would buy into it. Your spiritual development is the most important thing there is. So why would you entrust it's development to a complete stranger. Surely your just leaving yourself open to deception and lies. Some of these teachings can be found in the Gospel of Thomas which was curiously banned by the Christian Church.

The Gospel of Thomas, the so called "lost" gospel, which is believed to contain the wisdom teachings of Jesus as recorded by Thomas, his most beloved disciple. The early Christian Church declared the gospel heretical because it did not conform to their image of Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, Son of God. Consequently they ordered all copies to be destroyed.

For almost 2000 years, it was thought, that not even a single fragment had survived, until 1945 when a complete Coptic text translated from the Greek original was found in upper Egypt. Since then, the Gospel of Thomas has caused controversy simply because it contradicts quite alot of what was written by the other disciples and the church itself. The main reason, it is banned. It does not contain any of the Messianic mythology and dogma that was imposed upon it, over ensuing centuries.

In contrast to other gospels, Thomas does not prophesy an apocalypse with the coming of God's Kingdom on Earth, but instead denounces all those who put there faith in such prophecies.

Asked when the new world will come. Jesus pointed out that it's already here, but until we are awakened we cannot see it. "What you look for has come, but you do not know it. The Fathers kingdom is spread throughout the Earth and people do not see it. The verses repeatedly stress that "the kingdom is within us" and not as the church has insisted, in the heavens barred to the "sinner" by Saint Peter. The main reason for the church's opposition to the Thomas gospel was the inclusion of repeated warnings by Jesus not to entrust our spiritual development and well being to others, be they priests, politicians and prophets.

Regardless of how much faith & trust you have in the gospel of Thomas. One things for certain. It's about time we stopped empowering our corrupt religious institutions, priests and politicians and started empowering ourselves. The truth comes from within.

[quote/]

The Gospel of Thomas, the so called "lost" gospel, which is believed to contain the wisdom teachings of Jesus as recorded by Thomas, his most beloved disciple. The early Christian Church declared the gospel heretical because it did not conform to their image of Jesus as the Christ, the Messiah, Son of God. Consequently they ordered all copies to be destroyed.



John was the beloved and Thomas was known as doubting Thomas. If you read scripture Paul and Luke both talk about ALOT of so called gospels being written in that time. Just because it claims to be Thomas doesnt make it authentic. Exspecially if it contradicts all the other gospels. There was a letter written to the Thessalonians claiming to be from Paul. Which Paul himself totally debunked because it contradicted what he taught them. Now what if that letter is myseriously found today with Pauls name on it. Are we to believe it?

Now with all the "bible has been translated x amount of times" blah blah. Has anyone of you looked at the comparison between todays king james and the dead sea scrolls? Do you have any idea the margin of error they found in Isiah? You need to do a little googling before regurgitating what youve heard and or read.

The bible says it is the glory of God to conceal a matter and the honor of kings to find it. If you try to get to the spiritual truth of the bible just by arbitrarily glancing through it. You will never discern its truths, then how can you deny ignorance?

I cant believe that people can give seroious consideration to god still, i mean are we not evolving beyond this rediculuous misconception that we need a friend or guardian to be content with life, because lets face it all believers are believers due to fear (many wont admit that but it all starts with fear even if youre too young to remember) weather it be fear of being alone, burning for eternity, or dissapointing someone close to you, or fear of the unknown (death). Fear creates the unknown, fear creates god, and fear creates hell. when you die life ends, happyness ends, fear ends and the only god (heaven) or satan (hell) there ever was dies with your fears. so your hell has allready been created and lived through you. how are we ever sappose to overcome the greatest things in life (on an individual basis) if we are born into a world where we are immediatly told we are second, everything we do is for someone/something else, be your only god! Now to the question is god a liar? this is hard to answer but so is weather or not the tooth ferry is a liar, but i can confidently say jesus was a liar ,....... ok lets say there is a god and a satan and an afterlife just for jokes for a minute, look arround man satan's tricked you all into thinking hes god creating hell on earth and gods been doin nuthin but sittin back relaxing havin a toke. now i know there is gonna be some religious fanatic pipe up and say "look arround but jesus and god are recponsible for all the good you see in the world" ....let me tell you something morals have been arround long before jesus or any conception/misconception of a god and will be arround long after humanity overcomes this rediculous plague thats been placed upon us by fearfull followers and smitten leaders.
P.S how many wars have been faught over god ??? ??? ??? how many have been faught over satin 0!, wouldn't this prove whos the real evil genus here lol

we have to many people here who actually believe in god... here goes,

Religious fantasy advances in small steps by which those who already ‘see a higher truth’ help the less gifted to achieve that sublime state by using various devices. In Jewish tradition, one such a device was ‘midrash’, the teasing out of new, contemporary meanings from antique, sacred texts. By such means, the scribes could resolve a current issue by interpreting what the scripture had ‘really meant’ all along. Was that a lie?

One of the most inveterate forms of imaginative creation was the invention of sayings and whole speeches which, just as fiction-writers do today, they put entire into the mouths of the personages of whom they were writing. Thus, in the Gospel of John, chapters 13, 14, 15, 16 and 17 are almost one continuous verbatim monologue – all three thousand six hundred words of it ! – supposedly uttered by the godman, a truly remarkable instance of total recall by the fabled octogenarian author!

A Lying Prophet
'And Elisha said unto him, Go, say unto him, "Thou mayest certainly recover": howbeit the LORD hath shewed me that he shall surely die.'
– 2 Kings 8:10

all found at www.jesusneverexisted.com

[edit on 27-12-2006 by conspiracymaster]

Originally posted by conspiracymaster
The behavior of "God" in Eden matches precisely what evil would have to do if its goal were to take over the human race and control it.

Good and evil are concepts created by humans NOT by some God/divine figure - so why even try to apply such a concept? IMO, the topic is kind of flawed from the start.

I find it amazing that some are trying to use the bible to justify their responses but then say/agree that the bible shouldn't really be taken literally. To each their own I guess.

I could go on but I would just be rambling about what I feel the concept of God actually means.

Originally posted by conspiracymaster
we have to many people here who actually believe in god... here goes,

We have many people who believe in God, UFOs, aliens, 9/11 conspiracies, ghost, angels, OBE and any other number of subjects on ATS. No one says that anyone has to believe everything or anything. That is the genius of ATS. It is a forum for the discussion of ideas. Thanks for your contribution.