Originally posted by mOjOm
What was the motto of ATS again? Deny Ignorance or Propogate Ignorance?? Yikes!! No offense m0rbid, I totally respect your opinion if you indeed want to keep it, but I urge you to rethink your stance on this subject.

mOjOm

No offense took, man. My opinion stays the same. I think you're exagerating a lot when you go to deform the moto of ATS. We're not even trying to encourage lies here. If you thought that, sorry you got it all wrong (at least, from my point of view)

Hell, I dislikes some lies just the way you do, and I wouldn't want everybody to start posting complete utter crap & bull#. All I wanted to say is that I think that there's some small lies that people use in the everyday life that sometimes, just makes everything a whole lot easier. Could we just no use them? Probably. Depending on the context, sometimes it would makes thing more difficult. You know the old saying "what you don't know can't hurt you." Well I don't really like that saying, but sometimes it's better for certain people to not know certain stuff, and sometimes someone have to push some lie to be sure this people won't know.

I can't find any example right now, but I think that people use some lies in everyday life, and those particular lies often don't hurt anyone, and are not that bad IMO.

Sometimes the life is just so difficult, or just so unfair, it's just so much easier to get out of it lying.

Like..."No officer, my car ain't smelling pot. It's my new parfum."

Lol..Anyway... I hope you see what I'm trying to say...

Originally posted by JeanLucPicard
(...) If you told a lie to your daughter about her mother dyeing (NEO's example), then I guess it is ok.(...)

Please explain - what about your relations with daughter as the truth will be revealed?

The biggest problems in my life I have are with alcohol and lying. Both lying and drinking even small amount of any alcohol (for example alcohol based drug solutions) I feel big, almost physical pain. What is even more difficult I in most cases I know that other people lying… Another shot of pain.
And of course in that twisted civilization you have to lie – people don’t like to know truth – it is like asking for catastrophe.

m0rbid, yeah I see what you're saying. I agree that the billion or so pointless little lies that are said daily do not amount to much and certainly are way down the list as far as being The Major Cause for The Human Condition and/or Destruction. Grouping the little "Truth Benders" or Considerate Ego Stoking Lies like "That new perm looks wonderful on you!" with the Woppers may be an extreme point of view, but so is a statement like "We NEED lies." without some kind supporting remarks. I feel that there is plenty of comfort room allowed in "Truth" telling without having to go as far as Lying.

For example: If asked, "Do I look Ugly in this Dress?"
A. (True): "Dear, You are a Unique Work of Art beyond that of any article of clothing."
A. (True): "When I look at you I see only the beauty I have come to know and love these many years."
Those are both examples of being honest with the same positive end result without having to lie. The point being that the truth can be said in many ways from Harsh Dry & Possibly Difficult to Gradual and Tactful while still not having to Lie. There is usually some area of subtle delivery, but not always.

Sometimes the Painful Truth of Reality is the only way however. If it's the only way, then we just have to deal with it. They say Ignorance is Bliss and There are some things that should not be known. There is a difference however between Unknown and False Knowing. If someone asks the opinion of another they've taken it upon themselves to deal with that answer, whatever it may be. An honest answer should be given as that is what was asked for. If you ask for Chicken you should get Chicken, not Fish in disguise. Whether we like it or not the Truth is still the Truth and we can either Accept it and Know what is Real or Deny it and continue to allow Reality to work against us.

I cannot come up with even one example where a Lie becomes more valid or needed than Truth. Let's take your example for "Smokin' Weed and Lying to the Cops." If we would follow the Truth in the first place then Marijuana would never be illegal in the first place.

Can anyone come up with a Situation where a Lie is the only way to go??? I'm trying too, but honestly can't find one....

How about making excuse? Like if I'm late at work because I'm lazy, but say it's because of either my alarm clock, an accident, road construction, car not starting, etc etc... It ain't hurting no one.

how about saying you're 18 when in fact you're not?

how about if some ex girlfriend ask you if everything is fine between us and you say yes, even if you still have something for her, but just don't want to bother her with it?

How about lying to one of your parent, because you're interested in something that they wouldn't understand, and probably hate without any significant reason?

When someone dies of a violent way , is it so bad to lie to kids of really young age?

[Edited on 13-12-2003 by m0rbid]

Originally posted by Questor
If it was possible, would you like to be an open book to everyone & everyone be an open book to you?

Think about it. No one can lie to you without you knowing it. No one can cheat without everyone knowing about it.

If you are a decent human being, this kind of world should not be a problem. Personally, I'm all for it.

It really separates the good & the bad quite effectively.

I would say I'm a "Decent Human Being", and I would love to be revealed for who I am. I'm very honest...I'v made (MANY MANY MANY MANY) squared to infinity mistakes. But making mistakes don't make people a "bad person" that's part of being human. Like the Lord said

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

I look to the Lord to save me.........I can't save myself.

Originally posted by mOjOm
If we would follow the Truth in the first place then Marijuana would never be illegal in the first place.

That's right, brother!

I apply honesty to my everyday life. I despise liars, and especially those that build their life around lies. They can be very dangerous people. Allowing them to enter my personal life is a risk that I'm not willing to take. Yes, I've had very bad experiences with those that choose to discard the truth.

I know that we all have a pretty good time here at ATS, but would ATS exist if there weren't any liars?

Originally posted by m0rbid
How about making excuse? Like if I'm late at work because I'm lazy, but say it's because of either my alarm clock, an accident, road construction, car not starting, etc etc... It ain't hurting no one.

It may or may not hurt hurt someone else, but that isn't the only reason for honesty. It may have set off a chain reaction that did hurt someone that you'll never know about too, who knows. The point is that whether or not you notice some kind of result, you are still not taking responsibility for your actions. Why not just say you were late cause you were lazy?? Because that may result in getting in trouble or fired right?!?! After all that is the contract you agreed to uphold. The thing you should ask yourself is "Why you felt the need to lie instead of telling the truth." If you felt you had done nothing wrong you wouldn't feel the need to lie about anything. So in this example being late from laziness is obviously something you know or feel is Wrong to do or else you wouldn't lie about it.

how about saying you're 18 when in fact you're not?

What's the reason?

how about if some ex girlfriend ask you if everything is fine between us and you say yes, even if you still have something for her, but just don't want to bother her with it?

How about saying "I don't want to talk about this now." or show some respect for her by telling her the Truth when she asks instead of thinking of yourself and when such things are convenient for you. Wouldn't you like others to respect you enough to act in an honest manner toward you when you ask questions?

How about lying to one of your parent, because you're interested in something that they wouldn't understand, and probably hate without any significant reason?

It's your parents responsibility to come to terms with reality. When parents Hate their Gay Child it's the parents failure to come to grips with that Fact. If you are going to do something they don't like, so be it. You're still going to do it, they can deal with it or not. If you believe you have every right to do what you're doing then you have no reason to hide it. Stand by your decisions and stop living in fear. Good or bad if it was your choice than be man enough to take responsibility for it.

When someone dies of a violent way , is it so bad to lie to kids of really young age?

Once again you can address this in an honest way while doing it with some tact and in a way that the child understands. Lying to him isn't doing him/her any good especially since they will most likely learn the truth from somewhere else and possibly when they are in a less supportive environment.

the truth will set you free
... and everywhere he is in shackles

there is little truth in "developed" society

Originally posted by m0rbid
How about making excuse? Like if I'm late at work because I'm lazy, but say it's because of either my alarm clock, an accident, road construction, car not starting, etc etc... It ain't hurting no one.

Lying to protect your job may not seem like a big deal, but it also protects your laziness, which is detrimental to your personal integrity.
But if you are forced to be honest, you would be forced to overcome your laziness or suffer the consequences.

Being late to work is not a major deal, unless you are constantly late, but it does effect those waiting on you to start your shift. What if they needed to leave right on time, in order to catch a bus home, and because of your being late, they missed the bus and had to walk?

how about saying you're 18 when in fact you're not?

Why would you need to lie? To impress someone who is older? If it is to buy something or get in somewhere that requires you to be 18, you would also need ID, not just your word. If you are lying to someone, that would not be interested in you if they knew you were under 18, you are definitely in the wrong. That person probably has a personal reason for not getting involved with someone under 18, and lying to him/her could bring more serious problems with it. Honesty is DEFINITELY the best policy in this case.

how about if some ex girlfriend ask you if everything is fine between us and you say yes, even if you still have something for her, but just don't want to bother her with it?

Aren't you just using a lie to hide your fear? What if she has the same feelings for you, but doesn't think you feel the same? Then the two of you just walk around like a couple of morons, because neither of you have the balls to say what you really feel. If she doesn't feel the same, then she can tell you, so you can find closure and move on. In either case, it is better to get it off your chest so that you are not burdened by it.

How about lying to one of your parent, because you're interested in something that they wouldn't understand, and probably hate without any significant reason?

Being a teenager is very difficult and tricky. You are developing your own personality and lifestyle. Unfortunately, most parents dread this and think that their answers are the only answers. If everyone told the truth, however, they would have to give honest answers as to why they hated something you are interested in and why they don't think you are capable of making your own decisions about said interest. You would be able to have a honest discussion and come to an honest conclusion. One of the reasons parents and teens conflict so much is because they don't want to be honest about what they think and feel.

When someone dies of a violent way , is it so bad to lie to kids of really young age?

When someone dies, regardless of the way they died, discretion is necessary to explain the death to a young child. They don't need to hear all of the gory details. They just need to be told about death and they need help to understand what it means to die. If they want to know how, for example, a person that was stabbed 58 times, died, just tell them that the person who died was hurt by someone dangerous and their injuries couldn't be fixed, or something similar. The use of discretion just means that you are careful about what you say and how you say it. It does not involve lying to avoid pain caused by the truth

Constantly Lying for 2 years kept my parents and myself much less stressed during my last 2 years of High School.

They worried about my schoolwork when there was no need to.

I fi told them how much work i actually had then they would have been extra worried, extra concerned, on my back too much. I myself cant stand someone...anyone worrying about me at all. If someone worries about me i start worrying about them....coz i dont want them to worry and i start worrying about them worrying about me and i start wondering how i can stop them from worrying about me.

We'll me telling my parents everything was alright and i didn't have as much homework as i really did, put htme at ease. But because i told them i didn't have that much homework, etc, they would put extra pressure on me by wanting me to do other things such as jobs around the house....when i got this big assignment due in the morning and i'm really rushed for time.

But constantly lying for 2 years about my homework, school work turned me into an excellent lier elsewhere too, being able to remember every single lie i was telling, and making sure all my other lies or the truth wouldn't interfere with those lies, thus exposing me as a liar....Never stuffed up once...but got close a couple of times...quick thinking just to get away with some of it.



Anyways the last year of high shool was really really stressful on me, had a bit of a break down because i was soo stressed. Too many things to do at school, home, work, the lying didn't help out either...jsut made it more stressful..and more late nights. My parents didn't like me staying up at night to do schoolwork...and i had to do schoolwork in my bed with a torch some nights so my parents wouldn't know i was lying to them about schoolwork, and wouldn't see me staying up at night doing it.


Anyways while telling lies did have a few drawbacks....It had more positive aspects for me. The only bad thing about lying is getting caught.....So DONT get caught is all i have to say.

Another thing is dont lie if u can....to your friends....coz if your found out to talk heaps of #..and lie to ur friends...right to thier faces...it sure as hell hurts deep down inside...and trust...starts to disappear....i speak on experience....not me lying to friends...but them lying to me.