If it was possible, would you like to be an open book to everyone & everyone be an open book to you?

Think about it. No one can lie to you without you knowing it. No one can cheat without everyone knowing about it.

If you are a decent human being, this kind of world should not be a problem. Personally, I'm all for it.

It really separates the good & the bad quite effectively.

Honesty is the best policy!

Too bad deceit is used far more than honesty, especially when honesty seems to be most needed.

Sounds easier than it really is.

Is there not times when people lie and it is considered okay?

for example: Hi, how are you today? I'm fine thanks....

or the old: Yes Johnny there is a santa claus!

or the classic: No susie, mommy is going to get better...

or how about: I'm sure that Frank is going to heaven....

or ...

honesty is a good thing...and also an important thing

but i really think we need lies as well...

i mean in a fun way sometimes to..

take you ask someone if your ugly..the response you want

is "of course your not" but what if you knew everyone

thought your pet dog looked better than you...

you would be crushed!!!

Where im going with this is sometimes we need lies

I have lied to make people feel better, i.e when my little

sister got her lip bitten off by a dog, it looked really bad

and she felt like awfull, could i tell her how bad it looked

No!! i said its there but it does not look terrible,

Get where im going!!!!

I'm with Neo..

Also, there's times that lies can help protect someone's feelings, etc.

I'm a big fan of honesty in most cases, but as with many things...there is a time and place for everything....

I'm with Neo and Gazrok on this one. And this mean something people, it's actually the first time I agree with Neo ! BTW, good list of example dude.

I think we need lies as well. I wouldn't want to be an open book, and there's time where I prefer not to know what a person think, else I'd probably have to punch a lot of people in the face lol... (j/k)

I still don't think you need to lie. There is such a thing as keeping info. to yourself. People will know you're holding back but at least it wouldn't be a lie.

Other Benefits:

1. No more misunderstandings

2. No more B.S.

3. Extraordinary experiences can be experienced 1st hand. For example, an alien abductee or some other kind of victimization experience can be transferred to another person if the receiving person so wishes. Same with dreams, obes, ghostly encounters or whatever.

4. Learn things more quickly. Go to an expert on the subject & they can send their knowledge & experience to you telepathically. Both parties must be consenting to this.

Originally posted by Questor
I still don't think you need to lie. There is such a thing as keeping info. to yourself. People will know you're holding back but at least it wouldn't be a lie.

Other Benefits:

1. No more misunderstandings

2. No more B.S.

3. Extraordinary experiences can be experienced 1st hand. For example, an alien abductee or some other kind of victimization experience can be transferred to another person if the receiving person so wishes. Same with dreams, obes, ghostly encounters or whatever.

4. Learn things more quickly. Go to an expert on the subject & they can send their knowledge & experience to you telepathically. Both parties must be consenting to this.

These arguements are WAY too complicated.

If my wife sews me a sweater, and it looks like shyte, I'm still going to tell her it looks nice, and compliment her on it.

Little white lies don't hurt, especially when it comes to peoples feelings.

OMG. Really nathraq?

If my SO gave me a piece of clothing that looked like sh.it or perfume that stank, I'd have to say something to discourage further gifts of a similar nature.

They'll be hurt anyways when they see you don't wear the clothing nor wear the perfume.

Best to set the record straight but in a gentle yet assertive way. You could say for example, the thought was nice but that's not my style, colour, type of scent...

Originally posted by Questor
OMG. Really nathraq?

If my SO gave me a piece of clothing that looked like sh.it or perfume that stank, I'd have to say something to discourage further gifts of a similar nature.

They'll be hurt anyways when they see you don't wear the clothing nor wear the perfume.


Best to set the record straight but in a gentle yet assertive way. You could say for example, the thought was nice but that's not my style, colour, type of scent...

I'm married to a German, hehe

Well there must be some reason why we cannot always accept the truth.

These are just innocent examples here but consider some of the big truths we may have trouble facing...

There are people that can take the truth no matter how bleak, I am much better at this than I used to be for example.

In many cases lies seem to protect the other person because they are 'fragile' or 'weak' not necessarily all the time but at certain times.

But we all know people that live in a world of lies, for them the truth is not comprehensible and is to be avoided.

Hope I did not make anyone confused here but I agree that the world would be a better place with no lies at all but I know that many can not handle that.

But there are times when we think we know or we say what we believe and they are lies also, for we do not know all truths, it is not possible with such limited perspective that a human has.

Well, I agree that they are bad and good at the same time. If you told a lie to your daughter about her mother dyeing (NEO's example), then I guess it is ok. Really, all that matters is the reason why the lie was told. You know what I mean? If you tell the truth...you can't go wrong.

What's the standard for lying?

The Catholic Church used the Bible to "PROVE" Galileo was a lying heretic (which of course he was not).

So was the Church lying? The Bible?

We're not Borg you know. Or omnipotent telepathic. The human condition is one of isolated conciousness from which we project the existence of 'others' in our own image. Without deception and manipulation or even 'well meaning' but erroneous assumptions, we aren't even human.

But to your fantastical "What if" scenario. Assume we all suddenly told the truth. Would not every SINGLE preacher on TV out himself as either full of doubt or a downright scoundral? Wouldn't Rush Limbaugh have had some interesting shows on the subject of drugs the past 8 years. Actually, we'd save a fortune on the court system wouldn't we? No need. All crimes would be confessed to. But then who would enforce the laws? I doubt anyone would run for office if they couldn't conceal their past. This is messed up.

I like my secrets. Just not the governments. I'm a hypocrite like that.

[Edited on 13-12-2003 by RANT]

Honesty is, arguably, the single most important responsibility we have to each other. If we were all honest to ourselves and others, we would be forced to acknowledge the reasons we do things. We would not be able to hurt others in order to avoid feeling our own pain. We would have to face our true nature and understand what we fear and why. We would not ask questions like, "Do I look fat?" or "Am I pretty?" when we already know the answers. If there were no such thing as deceit or dishonesty, the government would not be able to trick the weaker minded into believing it's lies. The motives of those in charge would be there for all to see and judge.

Sure it's nice to be able to save our butts or protect others feelings with lies, but I think it would be worth the price to live in a world where everything could be taken at face value and sincerity would be the norm.

Originally posted by jezebel
We would not ask questions like, "Do I look fat?" or "Am I pretty?" when we already know the answers.

But wouldn't it bug you if (just an example) every time you went for a job interview, the boss kept saying "I'm sorry, I wasn't listening...I was trying not to look at your boobs."

[Edited on 13-12-2003 by RANT]

Originally posted by RANT

Originally posted by jezebel
We would not ask questions like, "Do I look fat?" or "Am I pretty?" when we already know the answers.

But wouldn't it bug you if (just an example) every time you went for a job interview, the boss kept saying "I'm sorry, I wasn't listening...I was trying not to look at your boobs."

[Edited on 13-12-2003 by RANT]

1. To not lie, does not mean to say everything on one's mind. Tact, otherwise known as discretion, is to have a sense of what is fitting and considerate in dealing with others, so as to avoid giving offence or to win good will. It is far better to use discretion in what we say, then to lie.

2. If I was in an interview with a potential boss that couldn't refrain from looking at my breasts long enough to hear what I was saying, I would be glad to know what kind of person he was, so that I could tell him what I thought of his behavior and walk out.

I'm going to have to go with the strange pro-lie side here. It's true that honesty would be good but we have to remember that as human beings we have emotions that aren't controlled very well. In order to keep some kind of peace we need to lie every once in awhile (or constantly). I think if everyone was honest to me at all times I'd probably freak out and chase down people with a shotgun. They key to this is that you don't get caught lieing. That's the trick. But people would be hurt if they would told the truth and it wasn't pretty and as much as we say we can handle the tuth most of us can't. Put in the situation everyone would be in a deep depression all the time. Remember, it takes 3 compliments to undue a put down. No wonder the government lies to us...

Originally posted by m0rbid
I think we need lies as well. I wouldn't want to be an open book, and there's time where I prefer not to know what a person think, else I'd probably have to punch a lot of people in the face lol... (j/k)

WHAT?!?!? WE NEED LIES??? Did I miss a meeting or memo or something?? What was the motto of ATS again? Deny Ignorance or Propogate Ignorance?? Yikes!! No offense m0rbid, I totally respect your opinion if you indeed want to keep it, but I urge you to rethink your stance on this subject. First of all lets remove Intentional Lies from Unintentional Lies. Unintentional Lies being the result of someone who is misinformed and is telling what they think is True when in reality it's just that they have the wrong information. I'll be dealing with Intentional Lies for this post.

Let's start with THENEO's examples:
Hi, how are you today? I'm fine thanks....
Fine leaves a large and non-specific area and most likely isn't even a lie, but lets use this same idea in a more clear way. Let's say I'm dying of a Flesh Eating Virus and presently suffering from Pain which is not yet overwhelming. I'm asked "How I am today?" I reply "Fantastic, thanks!" Obviously Not True unless I'm saying Fantastic because compared to how I'll feel tomorrow or the next day, today in comparison would be Fantastic. So if I am lying, what's the point? Why not say "I could be better" or "Well, I'm not dead yet" or even "Not too good, I'm being eaten alive!" You can still speak the truth without leading into having a long conversation or totally spill the beans so why not atleast make it a habit of speaking the truth?

Yes Johnny there is a santa claus!
Is it important to have kids believe in Santa Claus?? Eventually they find out the truth and sometimes it does cause problems. Many parents tell their kids the Santa Lie and help support it for years knowing that it won't last. Worst case, this can develop into the child having Trust issues dealing with their parents and if "Mom & Dad are just kidding or Lying then..." maybe there is no risk playing in traffic, or playing with matches either!! If you tell your kids not to take candy from strangers you want them to know take you seriously right? Why not do the best thing and be 100% honest from the get go as doing so will be a good example to them and in the long run be more helpful than steering them toward belief in ideas which are completely false.

No susie, mommy is going to get better...
Also not helpful if Mommy is NOT going to get better. If you aren't sure, why not say "We are doing everything we can for Mommy" or something like similar? At some point Illness and Death will have to be discussed or realized. People seem to think hinding the Truth keeps kids safe when just the opposite is true. Kids adapt faster and better than when they are older. Grown people for that matter adapt to things very slowly if at all.

I'm sure that Frank is going to heaven....
This is making things even more complicated. What is Heaven? How about Hell? Neither can be Proven True nor Proven UnTrue by People anyway as they deal with Judgement from God. "Who's God" you ask..."Is He like that Santa Clause Guy??"

An intentional lie serves only to create misdirection and misunderstanding and will almost always eventually require the Truth to be known. Depending on what has been done using the Lie will also have to be undone as well. The Truth is nothing to avoid or fear or hide because of the simple fact that doing so Does Not Change the Truth. Something either IS or IS NOT. If people live life according to what IS(True), we are working with Something and have Something as a Result. If we live according to what IS NOT then we work with NOTHING resulting in NOTHING regardless of how we try and justify it. It's unwise to Build your House on Sand for it IS NOT stable ground. Building your house on NOTHING is even more unstable.

Originally posted by jezebel

To not lie, does not mean to say everything on one's mind.

I'm going to have to lie and agree with you on this one Jezebel.

Originally posted by FunkTSkunk
I'm going to have to go with the strange pro-lie side here. It's true that honesty would be good but we have to remember that as human beings we have emotions that aren't controlled very well. In order to keep some kind of peace we need to lie every once in awhile (or constantly). I think if everyone was honest to me at all times I'd probably freak out and chase down people with a shotgun. They key to this is that you don't get caught lieing. That's the trick. But people would be hurt if they would told the truth and it wasn't pretty and as much as we say we can handle the tuth most of us can't. Put in the situation everyone would be in a deep depression all the time. Remember, it takes 3 compliments to undue a put down. No wonder the government lies to us...

If we were all completely honest, that would mean we were honest with ourselves as well. If we were honest with ourselves, when someone said something that we didn't want to hear, we would be forced to acknowledge it as truth and accept it.

The reason we lash out at others, who speak the truth, is because we are trying to convince ourselves that what they said is not true. We would have to learn to be true to ourselves and stop depending on lies to be happy.