Survival Rifle

Originally posted by crgintx
CS, since when did they ban all gun ownership in the UK? You've got to jump through hoops to do it but you can still own both rifles and shotguns that I'm aware of. I suggest that you join your local rifle or hunting club and obtain a firearms certificate. If every citizen in the UK who is seriously concerned with liberty took these actions and voted out the anti-gun MP's, you folks could would get full gun ownership back. The right of self-defense is a basic human right not one granted by a gov't.

Completely agree. In order to get a shotgun cert in the UK, it is the responsibility of the police authority to provide a viable reason to not grant a liscence.

To own a firearm (read anything with a rifled barrel, not a pistol/semi-automatic/automatic firearm and/or with a capacity of more than 3 rounds) it is up to the applicant to provde a reason to own such a firearm.

Unfortunately the vast majority of citizens in the UK are distinctly anti-gun despite the evidence that firearms prohibition in the UK has been shown to have no positive effect on the number of gun crimes. For example, since the pistol ban a few years ago, the number of shootings with pistols has increased by approx 30% compared to pre-ban numbers.

In the US, the choices should be simple.

.22LR (My pref, Ruger 10/22) for the simple fact that you can bring down small game and feed your family with it. Ammo is cheap and plentiful, and easy to reload.


.308 Win (I use the Spanish CETME) good range, good velocity, and a large enough round to bring down most large game. Also a common round.


.45 ACP (1911) common ammo, big enough round to make a meth junkie fall back a bit. In the US, most police and military will be carrying a similar pistol as their sidearm, so ammo is not that hard to come by. As long as it's not the end of the world, someone will have ammo for it.

12 Gauge (Maverick, cheap but made by Mossberg) home defense, looks aggressive, but it makes ducks and pheasants where I live go to birdy hell with relative easy. Common ammo, easy to reload.

Originally posted by Taliesin
In the US, the choices should be simple.

.22LR (My pref, Ruger 10/22) for the simple fact that you can bring down small game and feed your family with it. Ammo is cheap and plentiful, and easy to reload.

OK, this is the second time on this board that I have seen someone say that .22 LR in reload-able. SO, if .22LR is reload-able then some one show me.

Roper

Originally posted by crgintx
CS, since when did they ban all gun ownership in the UK? You've got to jump through hoops to do it but you can still own both rifles and shotguns that I'm aware of.

To be honest, it would be far easier (and cheaper) to obtain a firearm and a dozen rounds for £500 no-questions-asked back in Manc than it would to go through the proper legal channels...although it must be said that should you be caught in the possession of such a firearm or even have your prints/DNA found on one you'd be seriously screwed.

It's not all that bad though, as should the X hit the fan, the vast majority of the populace would also be un-gunned making a mass-survival scenario all the more safer

reply to post by crgintx


Thanks very much for your informed reply.

It was my understanding though, that flechettes were designed to bring more muzzle energy to the target. A round ball loses energy so quickly in the air, due to its poor aerodynamics, the flechette was seen by some as an improvement. Or am I completely wrong about this?

Originally posted by citizen smith

Originally posted by crgintx
CS, since when did they ban all gun ownership in the UK? You've got to jump through hoops to do it but you can still own both rifles and shotguns that I'm aware of.

To be honest, it would be far easier (and cheaper) to obtain a firearm and a dozen rounds for £500 no-questions-asked back in Manc than it would to go through the proper legal channels...although it must be said that should you be caught in the possession of such a firearm or even have your prints/DNA found on one you'd be seriously screwed.

It's not all that bad though, as should the X hit the fan, the vast majority of the populace would also be un-gunned making a mass-survival scenario all the more safer

Un-gunned the populace? Oh wow! How about un-crime and un-sinned the world while you're at it?


UK just scared another America will rip itself out of it, so no guns. Thank heavens I don't live in UK.

Those who wait for others to save their lives is not living as freeman, but living as property of their government.

My life, My responsibility, NO EXCEPTIONS.



[edit on 8-9-2007 by chickeneater]

Smith does have a point about the ready availability of illegal firearms in the UK. I know that I could walk out in most big cities in Britain and get hold of some sort of handgun in a morning. I seriously doubt that they would be of much use for survival (apart from scavenging/robbing), but they are there.

I'm OK for survival firearms (I keep a .308 and a .223 hunting rifle and a 12ga O/U shotgun in the unit armoury). However even if I didn't have these I could still easily get my hands on a shooter. Most of the people with these illegal weapons in the UK have no real idea of how to use them. With judicious use of some of the skills I picked up with various military units and a large claw hammer I could happily relieve someone of their ill-gotten pistol.

I think that it's safe to say that in the UK the majority of people won't have access to a firearm, and many of those firearms that are available are of little use for survival. Therefore we need to develop other methods for catching prey, for example traps, snares, deadfalls, pits etc.

reply to post by WyrdeOne


Military flechettes are made of steel and are very light compared to 00 or 000 buck shot. Like all light projectiles they shed energy like mad and decelerate quickly. Since they harder than lead, if you don't hit a vital organ, they just zip through human flesh without cause much damage. The now out-lawed for combat flechette 2.75 inch rocket warhead of Vietnam fame used over 10k per warhead and were dispersed with extreme velocity by a high explosive charge not low velocity gun propellant. I would guess the military one's were travelling at least 3000 fps or more when the warhead exploded. I doubt you could push a shotgun wad full of them at more than 2000 fps. 1500 fps would be more likely. They used to sell the flechettes that were salvaged from the demilled warheads for about 5-10 cents a piece for reloaders which isn't cheap. You could maybe a dozen or so in 12 gage wad or cup. You have to use a wad or you'll tear up your shotgun barrel and the fins on the flechettes. The most effective reload for a 12 gage in terms of adding just plain deadly would be simple hollow point slug of pure lead. .45-50 caliber slug will mushroom like crazy and if it exits a body, the hole is usually an inch or so in diameter. I've seen slugs used on deer and wild boar and they're absolutely superior game stoppers. The are several reloading supply companies that sell hollow point moulds for shotgun slugs.

Interesting post, I am in the process of calculating my needs in a rifle or shotgun. My scenario is that I mainly want to target shoot and perhaps on long hikes have something for protection by way of Cougar, Grizz, Black bear, etc.
The thought has crossed my mind about a time when a weapon may be handy for the survival of my family in a post war situation; from people and for aquiring food.
As a aspiring gun owner, I am interested in accuracy, weight, versatility, affordability and durability.
As I am not living in a metropolis by any means, what would my choice be?
I ask this question with the intention of owning just one gun and using it for targets, a last resort or until the grocery stores run out of food.

I eagerly await your responses as ppl in the know. BTW, I have shot two guns in my life, 9mm. handgun, and a .22
I don't want to over-do it either. (from learning to skilled), no handguns please

Thanks.
lucky

[edit on 15-9-2007 by luckyfourteen]

reply to post by luckyfourteen


If I had to pick one firearm to keep, it would be a bolt action rifle in .30-'06 or 7.62x51mm NATO or maybe 7.62x39mm. .308 caliber bullets are very common and any of the rounds mention can be loaded hot enough to take any meat animal in North America. The .30-'06 would be the most versatile since it has the largest capacity. Small 100 grain Speer plinker bullets can be loaded with reduced powder loads for small game or you can load 220-240 grain bullets for large dangerous game like grizzly. Long range bullets of 150-180 grains loaded to the cartridges full potential can reach out past 1000 yards for self defense purposes.

However, even the little Russian round loaded with heavier bullets can take very large game at distances under 100 yards when fired accurately and has much less recoil then its larger rivals. The .308 Winchester aka 7.62x51mm NATO is a good compromise between the two and is generally considered the most accurate of the trio. It can't be loaded as heavily as the '06 but still a very powerful round.

There are three other .30-. 312 caliber rounds that perform just as well as the .308: .30-30 Winchester (hard to find in a bolt action but plenty of soild lever action guns out there), .303 British(should be common in BC) and the ubiquitous 7.62x54mm Russian. Lots of dirt cheap ammo for the Russian and Moisin-Nagant military surplus bolt rifles can be had for less than $100 US.

The 12 gage shotgun is very versatile but lack the range you'll get with bolt gun.

people keep saying that a .22LR is not a viable survival cartridge. In my opinion it is the best survival cartridge on the market. You can carry an almost unlimted amount of ammo and you can easily defend yourself against an assailant with it. You won't be killing bears with it, but around the turn of the century (1900) there was an African big game hunter named Karamojo Bell who regularly took elephant with a .224 cartridge, which is .22 caliber.

I keep a Henry U.S. survival rifle in my backpack with me at all times and the pack stays in my truck or in the house. It is a .22LR semi auto that breaks down into the butt of the weapon and can be reassembled in about a minute with no tools. I keep a ziploc bag full of ammo in the pack as well.

If it came down to a sidearm I would prefer my Ruger GP100 .357mag to a semi auto hand gun for the simple fact that a revolver can't jam, ever.

Well, that's just my opinion.

cw0203,

If I were to carry only one survival firearm..I would prefer a shotgun. 12 or 20 gauge and selective assortments of ammunition.
I own a shotgun with a .22 long rifle calber barrel over the top of a 20 gauge shotgun. Very simple break open design. However if I had to do it over again I would prefer the 12 gauge over .22 long rifle.

As to the Henry .22 survival rifle. I have one from back when they were made by Charter Arms. It is one of the first rifles I ever purchased. I keep it on the back of one of my cars with a large tylenol bottle filled with .22 long rifles.I would hate to have to depend on it. It is not that dependable or accurate. The one feature this rifle has going for it is the case in which it is stored. It keeps the rifle safe and secure. I much more prefer my bolt action .22 long rifle over this charter arms survival rifle.

As to a revolver...they can jam too...they are just overall more dependable to me than a semi auto. .357 is a good choice as one can also carry .38 specials..and they are available across this country.
Flexability is what this revolver offers here. And some revolvers are quite accurate.

But if limited to one firearm for me it would be a shotgun.

Thanks,
Orangetom

This is a fascinating thread having read through all 8 pages thus far.

Alot of the weapons mentioned here are quite pricey. What about surplus Mosin-Nagent's 91/30 or some such variant as a survivial rifle? Ammo is cheap and available, the rifle itself won't require a additional mortgage. Of course you'd have to find a decent one, being that these are quite old, but they are built to last. Any opinions appreciated.

[edit on 18-9-2007 by crudos]

reply to post by crudos


If you're on a very tight budget, it's a very good choice but if you can afford a better gun in any of the calibers I mentioned in the earlier post, they would be a better choice. The cheap Russian 7.62 x 54 rimmed cartridge supplies are all Berdan-primed and difficult to find primers for here in the West. The Russian warhorse is a fine choice for those on a very tight budget but unless your willing to pay premium prices for Boxer-primed cases or Berdan primers, your spent cases are useless once fired. Even 5,000 rounds won't last forever in a long term survival situation.
The problem with many good military surplus guns is one of ammo. I own a Carl Gustav Model 96 Swedish Mauser 6.5x55mm bolt gun that is probably one of the finest and most accurate military rifles ever made but I know without my bullet moulds and reloading supplies, ammo is very hard to find. The same is true with the Mosin-Nagant , the local sporting goods store isn't likely to stock much ammo or bullets for it. The bore isn't .308 but actually anywhere from .309 to .314 in some cases and so firing .308 jacketed bullets will lead to accuracy problems and in survival situations, you want your first bullet to do kill your hunting prey at all times to conserve ammo.
There are many fine used .308 and .30-'06 bolt action rifles out there that will probably go for less than $300 US. Ammo, bullets, reloading equipment and primers are very common for these calibers and there's tons of reloading data for it out on the internet.

Thanks crgintx for the info. Definately food for thought.

Benelli M4 full-auto shotgun.

Or Rem 870p Max.

Both should deter or blow to pieces anyone who threatens your freedom.

I would think the Remington 700 .223 or .308 would be a decent survival rifle. Best selling bolt-action rifle in the history of the US.

www.youtube.com...

I will take a taser, they seem to be working quite well lately

reply to post by milesp


Judging by the accuracy of the average rifle sold in the US it's not much of a qualification... it's a decent rifle, but there is absolutely nothing special in it, just look at how badly it sells in the Europe...

Originally posted by milesp
I would think the Remington 700 .223 or .308 would be a decent survival rifle. Best selling bolt-action rifle in the history of the US.

www.youtube.com...

My son has one in the .308 and I think the barrel is to thin. Now for the average hunter that goes out and fires five or six rounds /year it will work great.

Now this is just me and I ain't no expert, thats just how I think.

Roper