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Survival Rifle

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posted on Aug, 31 2007 @ 11:03 PM
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reply to post by DarkStormCrow
 


Yeah, that's my pick as well. The scout rifle with a few modifications, chambered in .22LR and .410 (over/under - selectable). It's awfully light compared to every other rifle mentioned on this thread, uses 2 varieties of common ammunition (which it stores in the stock), it's designed with durability and ease of repair in mind - all very good things in a survival situation.

It's even got a trigger that can easily be reached and manipulated with mangled or frozen hands - a bar trigger.

I agree with the sentiments of those others who are saying - you don't need a cannon, you need the lightest gun that can do the job, be repaired easily, and use common ammunition. The scout rifle was designed specifically for the job we're talking about. The folks who designed it were, presumably, at least as smart as all of us.


They're no longer in production, as far as I know. New in box they retail for probably twice what they did during production. Used, they vary - I guess it's a good rifle to buy used though, considering they take so much abuse.

Anyway, I have to post the disclaimer so people don't get the wrong idea - I don't work for the company that produces it, I don't own stock, I have absolutely no ideological or financial incentive to promote their product. I'm just trying to win an argument here.




posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by WyrdeOne
 


The maker of the original M4 Survival Gun is Savage Arms. The also make two other rifle/shotgun combo models. I'd favor the 24F-12 in .223/12gage combo over .22RF/.410 combo. They also make .22RF/20gage combo gun. They really should do a .22RF/12gage combo which I feel is far more a universal combo.



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by crgintx
 


Yeah, some people mentioned Savage earlier in the thread when I originally posted. Good reminder.


The one I'm talking about specifically is the Springfield Scout, but I don't know of any reason why 'my' version is any better.

I also like the Comanche shot-pistol chambered in .410, as a sidearm compliment to the Scout. They seem to be a good pair. In a survival situation I'll trade a huge margin of firepower for a bit more reliability, and ease of repair.



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 01:22 AM
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Not sure if its been mentioned here but if you just want a .22lr emergency rifle the Henry Repeating arms AR 7 is a good inexpensive option it breaks down and stores in the stock and it floats. Wont do you much good for large game though. but it is an option.



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by crgintx
The maker of the original M4 Survival Gun is Savage Arms. The also make two other rifle/shotgun combo models. I'd favor the 24F-12 in .223/12gage combo over .22RF/.410 combo. They also make .22RF/20gage combo gun. They really should do a .22RF/12gage combo which I feel is far more a universal combo.


Agree here crgintx. I own one of the .22RF/20 gage Savage Combos. I too would would rather it was in .22RF/12Gage.

By the way..these combo guns have gotten very expensive over the years. I dont believe they even make the .22RF/20 gage anymore.
The ones they do make are pricey.

Reading this...I have not taken mine out of the case in some time and done maintenance on it. Overdue for sure.

Thanks for reminding me,
Orangetom



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 03:27 AM
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How much does a Steyr scout cost?



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 06:21 AM
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reply to post by WyrdeOne
 



Won't the Comanche also take .45 Colt cartridges? I did some load development for a friend who has a NEF Survivor 45Colt/.410 gage. We latered settled on some full length brass .410 shell shooting heavy .357 cast bullets in sabots to get any kind of decent accuracy out of it past 50 yards.



posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 01:34 PM
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reply to post by crgintx
 


It's a very adaptable platform (in a pinch you could even commission it into service as a sort of black powder blunderbuss) but the load you mentioned wouldn't be my load of choice.

Accuracy past 50m should never be too much of a concern, especially if you're toting a long gun chambered in .22LR for small-medium game at a distance. No, I think the .410/20 gauge shot-pistol load of choice in a survival situation would be all about the shot and not the slug. Ammo is precious, and it's a lot easier to hit a bird on the wing or a scampering rodent using a shot load.

It's also going to be a lot easier to scavenge ball bearings in a crisis than a casting block and all the materials needed to fashion sabots.

Unless it's your anti-bear technology of choice, in which case the pinpoint energy delivered by a slug would be far superior. My anti-bear technology consists of standing tall and roaring though, so I'm all set, thanks.




posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
reply to post by crgintx
 


Unless it's your anti-bear technology of choice, in which case the pinpoint energy delivered by a slug would be far superior. My anti-bear technology consists of standing tall and roaring though, so I'm all set, thanks.



When asked about bear deterent for the Nat. Forest Service recommended pepper spray and wear little bells on your footwear to warn the bears of your presence.

Asked the old Forest Ranger how to spot bear droppings, he replies: 'that's simple bear droppings smell like pepper spray and have little bells in them.'





posted on Sep, 1 2007 @ 04:04 PM
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A random thought I had on the subject of survival ammunition...

In a collapse of law and order type situation, would the use of flechettes be advisable? There are some real benefits there, and some obvious drawbacks - I'm still juggling the pros and cons in my head.

The ballistics of a dart are far superior to a ball bearing in terms of energy delivered on target, but the ball bearing has much greater stability through light cover (I think). The former wounds better than the latter, and penetrates better, but the latter are easier to cast in quantity (assuming you have plentiful water).

In a situation where water is at a premium, casting flechettes might be a viable way to pack those .410 shells (further assuming you can get your hands on a block of steel, a gouge, a heat source, and some solder, nevermind the powder, plastic, primers, etc.).

How much would it suck if your survival depended on a steady supply of mold-release?



I'm thinking something along the lines of old-school grapeshot or a beehive/garbage round. There's enough space, even in the slim cavity of the .410's, for half a dozen darts of viable weight/diameter/length, and that's a very nasty impact.

Am I way off-base here? Thoughts?



posted on Sep, 2 2007 @ 12:13 PM
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Just a tought: some nasty people out here used to load 12 Gauge shells with steel nails, they do have a really nasty terminal ballistics when used in short range combat...



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 10:28 AM
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Please read, some REAL info here.

Many of you are missing the point. ANY .22 caliber weapon is ineffective for critters larger than a small dog-period. You aint gonna bag any birds or bad guys with it. Yes, many things die from .22's every year, but its usually hours later. If you want to carry more than one weapon, then have a sidearm and a long gun. The perfect sidearm is the one that is effective (9mm minimum), proven reliably, and you have trained with. (I mean you have personally fired 1k rounds thru it, and can actually hit).

Unless you are willing to carry the long gun openly in public then get one that will fit in your pack. This reduces the selection drastically. Shotguns are verry heavy and not "effective" beyond 25 yards. A "survival" rifle is light weight, accurate, rugged, and the simpler the mechanisms the better. My wife's bug out bag has a NEF Survivor rifle in .308 with a rugged scope. Yes, its a single shot-but you shouldnt need more than one shot if you are firing at 100+ yards.

One well placed shot with a heavy bullet at 300 yards is better than 500 rounds of buckshot! This is our hunting/sniping rifle to carry. My pack has a battle rifle(but wont go into that). The .308 will drop a man, deer, or small bear. Why carry 30 pounds of guns? That will only slow you down.

First realize what your survival environment is-then plan accordingly. For zombie attacks I would use a FN FAL. for hords of dogs i would use a AR-15. For woods, a bolt-action .308. (lots more meat on a deer than a squirrel).
Forget about a silencer- a single shot miles away is unfindable. If you are worried about mobs of looters, then fire one well placed shot and watch them scatter- then leave yourself.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 10:40 AM
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a Steyr scout in cammo is currently $2300----forget about it. get a Springfield Armory Scout .308 for $1600 instead and spray with cammo paint yourself - much more rugged anyhow.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 12:57 PM
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reply to post by J.Jay
 




For woods, a bolt-action .308. (lots more meat on a deer than a squirrel).


This contradicts everything I've read and heard about survival hunting. Yes, there's a ton of meat on a deer, no doubt. In fact, there's too damn much meat on a deer. It's unlikely that you'll be able to utilize most of it, or store it/cure it properly in a survival situation.

Rabbits, squirrels and the like, however, are more plentiful and easier to take down with any sort of firearm, even the humble .22LR.

If all you have is a .308, and you find yourself shooting at small furry things for your dinner, I hope you like stew, because that's all you'll have left if one of those connects.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 02:01 PM
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On the other hand if you are in a "northern" forrest in summer there is no way to get a clear shot on anything smaller than a deer because of the foliage... and at the ranges you can hit (read see) something smaller situation will be so fast that a shotgun is the only viable option. Or you need a dog...



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 05:40 PM
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reply to post by J.Jay
 


.22 LR rimfire not effective? I 'll sit you out at 100 yard with my sub moa capable .22 LR scoped bolt gun and let you catch one in the chest or the forehead and then you can come tell me how ineffective .22 LR are. Your statement is the most ignorant statement I've ever heard about firearms on this forum. An Inuit woman accidentally killed a polar bear with a .22 LR. There have been several reliable reports of one African professional hunter taking down at least 2 elephants with .22 LR from a rifle in front of witnesses.

I know of several airgun hunters who regularly bag small wild boar(under 200 lbs) with .22 caliber precharged pnuematic airguns that have about the same power as .22 RF shorts. I've personally killed ground squirrels at 70 yards with a .177 caliber 10.6 grain pellet from an airgun that shoots them at 830 fps and the pellet will still exit the body.

The reason so many of the so called 'expert hunters' on tv and magazines claim the .308 Winchester as the minimum caliber for hunting is because they know that there are so many hunters who'll take a poor shot rather than let that 'trophy' critter get away.

Muzzle energy will never be a replacement for shooting skill or good hunting habits.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by WyrdeOne
 


WO, I'm a retired USAF AMMO troop. Flechettes are really designed to wound and not kill. In an upclose survival shoot out scenario, it would be hard to beat your .410 shooting 3-5 000 buckshot pellets(depending on you shotshell length) except with a larger gage shotgun or a .45 ACP or .45 Colt. 000 buck pellet weigh in at 88 grains a piece and will exit a shot gun at over 1100 fps. At 20-30 yards that's same as being hit instantly by 3-5 9mm bullets. I've seen on load for .357 Mag that fires 3 stacked bullets the same way. Both the .410 and the .357 loads pattern at less than 12 inches at 25 yards. Bubba thats going to hurt. I saw a magazine article about .410 lever gun that fired it's entire magazine worth of slug rounds into a 10" circle at 50 yards. Remember that sabot load I told you about? The muzzle velocity for those bullets was about 1800 fps with 180 grains of .357 flatnose bullet. I'm sure a well designed .410 shot slug round will reach at least 1600 fps and take down any meat game at 50 yards and under with a well placed shot.



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
The ballistics of a dart are far superior to a ball bearing in terms of energy delivered on target, but the ball bearing has much greater stability through light cover (I think).


In terms of flechette vs. ball, which would be better to hunt with?

Although we can't own guns here in the UK, I'm just curious in terms of ammo for use with a high-power slingshot for birds/rabbits or other small critters



posted on Sep, 4 2007 @ 08:41 PM
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reply to post by citizen smith
 


CS, since when did they ban all gun ownership in the UK? You've got to jump through hoops to do it but you can still own both rifles and shotguns that I'm aware of. I suggest that you join your local rifle or hunting club and obtain a firearms certificate. If every citizen in the UK who is seriously concerned with liberty took these actions and voted out the anti-gun MP's, you folks could would get full gun ownership back. The right of self-defense is a basic human right not one granted by a gov't.

In answer, to your other question, .25 -.375 caliber steel or lead ball is the standard slingshot ammo sold here in the US. Since you're in the land of the airgun, I'd suggest you buy one and find someplace to practice. A decent quality air rifle is infinitely more accurate(and effective) a hunting tool than a slingshot. I own a sub FAC AirArms ProSport in .177 and have humanely dispatched big desert jackrabbits(hares) at 50 yards with it. For larger game, it's hard to beat the classic English longbow or a crossbow.

While we're on the subject of airguns, many of your precharged pneumatic airguns are very easily modified to fire well beyond your silly 12 foot-pound limit. With a custom breach and barrel, I've seen the Chinese clone of the Daystate Hunstman Mk.1 push 9mm lead bullets at nearly 800 fps. We don't have any federal restrictions on airgun power here in the US.



posted on Sep, 6 2007 @ 10:01 PM
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I have been thinking about which firearms to get. Initially I looked at the Ruger 10-22, when I read up on it, I really don't think I will be confident with it. Then the shotgun, a remington 870 tactical (briefly dreamt about the Benelli M4, then saw the 1.5k price tag), that maybe too much, considering I hate messy and gore, and the recoil is too much for me and especially my wife.

I am now very interested in the rem LTR .223. I think it's just right. Small and light enough, good ammo that I can carry more. Long range for sniping, and great for surveillance with a good scope. That, plus a Glock 23 for fast action in case I need to squeeze multiple shts in a short time.

Now I just need to bite it and take the 2k plunge...





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