Originally posted by Spores From Space
I know that their are some Rosicrucians here somewhere,,,, doesn't the floor directly under the altar in the Grand Temple in Amorcs Rosicucian Park in San Jose California have a black and white diamond pattern that resembles a chessboard?

I am quoting myself because I really would like an answer to this question

Originally posted by Spores From Space

Originally posted by Spores From Space
I know that their are some Rosicrucians here somewhere,,,, doesn't the floor directly under the altar in the Grand Temple in Amorcs Rosicucian Park in San Jose California have a black and white diamond pattern that resembles a chessboard?

I am quoting myself because I really would like an answer to this question

If so, they copied it from Masonic Lodges, as they did other items and symbolism.

To Trinity: most US Lodges I've been in have the Mosaic Pavement. Those that don't usually just show a photo or drawing of one while giving the lecture.

So, we have now established here a meaning behind this colour contrasted patterning. Would any knowledgeable person care to shed a little more light on that meaning? How do these opposites work? What is good, and what is evil? Who is good, and who is bad?

Please define, or further explain.

Originally posted by GIGANTIC SKY OTTER
So, we have now established here a meaning behind this colour contrasted patterning.

Hopefully.

Would any knowledgeable person care to shed a little more light on that meaning? How do these opposites work? What is good, and what is evil? Who is good, and who is bad?

Please define, or further explain.

Sorry, that's it... And this may be what throws people; your question would be defined by the individual, their faith, and personal ethics and morality. Freemasonry doesn't define good and evil, we have religion, and social structure and standards to define those specifics. Freemasonry reminds us of our moral, ethical, and spiritual obligations, and implores us to apply them.

Originally posted by pepsi78
... there are alot of masonic simbols that incorporate the white and black squares, it must be a tradition, traditions have meanings.

I suspect that most masons don't have a clue about the esoteric meanings of most of the things in thier lodge. A tradition without understanding is just that a tradition. Everyone just does what the last guy did and they don't ask questions. Pretty soon no one knows what it means and the meaning is lost.

[edit on 6-12-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
I suspect that most masons don't have a clue about the esoteric meanings of most of the things in thier lodge. A tradition without understanding is just that a tradition. Everyone just does what the last guy did and they don't ask questions. Pretty soon no one knows what it means and the meaning is lost.

Don't worry INWT, that's not going to happen any time soon. Fortunately in freemasonry nothing is done without a reason, and the raison d'etre of the ritual itself is to explain the symbolism in a masonic context. Consequently the original masonic meanings of the symbols are perpetuated and there is no danger of anyone forgetting the meaning.

Some people ascribe different meanings to symbols used in masonry, either an original pre-masonic meaning, or a meaning used by a different group. Sometimes even an invented meaning. Just because freemasonry chooses to moralize on symbols in a specific way doesn't mean it's forgotten an original meaning. The meaning of all symbols used in masonry are well documented within the Craft.

Because masonry is an individual journey, many choose a non-esoteric one, and that is entirely fine for them. Some freemasons are not interested in symbology at all and are just there for the food , and that's their call. Each is equally valid in a true masonic context.

The meaning of all symbols used in masonry are well documented within the Craft.

It would seem to me that as the origins of the order are not known beyond the mid 1600\'s, the origins and meanings of the symbols could not be known possitivly.
What they have come to mean since 1717 is a bit more solidly based.

For instance there are some who believe that the Masonic chekerboard is a rememberance of the Templar Beauceant battle flag, which symbolized their (The Templars) movement from the world of sin to their \"pure state\" in service.

At this point in time we are probably more likely to discover \"Who Killed Kennedy\"
or \" What really happened to Marilyn or Janis\" than we are the to find the real roots
and associations of the Freemasonic Order.

Originally posted by The Dark Lord

The meaning of all symbols used in masonry are well documented within the Craft.

It would seem to me that as the origins of the order are not known beyond the mid 1600\'s, the origins and meanings of the symbols could not be known possitivly.
What they have come to mean since 1717 is a bit more solidly based.

Is it possible that there are actually two orders in masonry?

THe known order, which is not so hidden, which traces it's roots back to 1717.

And the unknown order, which is not known, which traces it's roots back many thousands of years prior.

Thus the known order could be dealing with esoteric knowledge that they do not trully understand.

[edit on 6-12-2006 by In nothing we trust]

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
Is it possible that there are actually two orders in masonry?

THe known order, which is not so hidden, which traces it's roots back to 1717.

And the unknown order, which is not known, which traces it's roots back many thousands of years prior.

Thus the known order could be dealing with esoteric knowledge that they do not trully understand.

I wouldn't have thought there was an unknown Side Order in freemasonry, or at least if there is I've never heard of it . I'm fairly well connected masonically and I would have heard something of this I'm sure. But I can't rule it out, of course...

However many of the (known) Side Degrees deal with more esoteric matters than Craft Masonry. I'm not aware that there are any contradictions though, just developments. AFAIK the fundamental meanings of masonic symbols can all be found in the first three degrees, but I'd be interested in a Scottish Rite view of this.

[edit on 12/6/06 by Trinityman]

Is it possible that there are actually two orders in masonry?

THe known order, which is not so hidden, which traces it\'s roots back to 1717.

And the unknown order, which is not known, which traces it\'s roots back many thousands of years prior.

Thus the known order could be dealing with esoteric knowledge that they do not trully understand.

IMO. Let me state that again in my opinion rather than there being 2 orders
there is a single order the origins of which are clouded in antiquity. Some of this clouding can be laid directly at the feet of Masonic \" Histroians and researchers\"
of the late 19th and early 20th centuries and their attempts to connect Masonry
with virtually all historic/religious events dating back to Adam. This has made any
possibility of a link between Masonry and any historical group/event/or person not
accomponyed by a proclimation from the Creator or an act of congress, at best
suspect and at worst immediatly being declared a fraud.

Take for instance the Theory of Masonry being an outgrowth or offshoot of the Knights Templar. There is evidence(note evidence not proof) for this statement today that was not available in the early 19th century. However evidence from today
is blown off because of the \"manufactured \" Proof of yesterday.

While the \" bloody oaths\" recited in rememberance show no appearante association with stone cutters, they certainly do have association with a group of men condemned and outlawed by their church in 1312 and a group of men supportive of an ousted king in the mid 1600\'s and early 1700\'s. In either case divulging these
individuals identities would have at the least meant their deaths, and very painful
deaths at that ( think William Wallace, or some from the Peasants revolt of 1370).

With the outing in 1717 the lodges in Scotland called in all records and hid or burned them. ( shadows of The Templars.)

Perhaps the modern brotherhood simply has no \"institutional memory\" of its former self? even if it did proof would be difficult and beyond histriocity what would be gained? a Set of morals and values? They already have these and practise them
quite well.

Perhaps as had been said of many of the Quests of Life, It is the Journey not the Destination that counts.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
I wonder if this could actually be part the meaning of the black and white squares. How far back does masonry trace it's origins?

Because speculative freemasonry started out as a purely Christian organization it would be very unlikely to have Islamic influences. However Christianity and Islam have a shared past, and Islam would certainly be aware of the (alleged) black & white checkered flooring in the Temple of King Solomon.

Originally posted by The Dark Lord
Perhaps the modern brotherhood simply has no \"institutional memory\" of its former self? even if it did proof would be difficult and beyond histriocity what would be gained? a Set of morals and values? They already have these and practise them quite well.

Perhaps so. But as you imply what indeed is there to gain from making a definitive connection? Freemasonry is what it is, and whether it has a murky or a clear past is arguably irrelevant. I sometimes wonder wether the importance of freemasonry's past with respect to its current activities is overstated by those who are desperate to find something wrong with an organization that is (to all intents and purposes) a force for Good, a condition that is unacceptable to their perception of reality.

Perhaps as had been said of many of the Quests of Life, It is the Journey not the Destination that counts.

This is true of many things, but IMO no more so than in Freemasonry

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I know why they created the ying/yang symbol but why the chessboard?

Squares within squares.

I sometimes wonder wether the importance of freemasonry\'s past with respect to its current activities is overstated by those who are desperate to find something wrong with an organization that is (to all intents and purposes) a force for Good, a condition that is unacceptable to their perception of reality.

in many cases i would have to agree with you. The importance again IMO can be equated to an adopted child seeking their birth parents.

If the roots of Masonry were in an order stemming from the Templar persecutions
or even an era of the late 16th early 17 th century when even the discussion of any
of the sciences might be a cause for a persons painful death then, given todays rabid
fundies a rememberance of those penalties is in order. If however there is no basis
for them they do come across as a tad overboard.

I'm a Freemason, belonging to The Grand Lodge of Antient Free and Accepted Masons of Scotland and all our lodges have the chequered floor, be it tiles or carpet. The floor is actually veiled in symbloism (like most of Masonry) which can relate to various estoric meanings.

Everyone of our degrees (all 3 of them because you can only get E.A, F.C and M.M degrees in the original ideal of Freemasonry), contain symbols which relate to the floor. For those who know the ritual of the entered apprentice, look at the wording contained towards the end part of the ritual and look at the black/white squares. That in itself is veiled in allegory.

Originally posted by Pictnation
I'm a Freemason, belonging to The Grand Lodge of Antient Free and Accepted

I have two questions for you.

How did you come to Join the Masons?

And

Why did you join the Masons??

NeoN HaZe.

I have two questions for you.

How did you come to Join the Masons?

And

Why did you join the Masons??

NeoN HaZe.

For the first question, I live in a small village so know all the freemason's and when I went to one about joining, I got installed the following year.

the main reason I joined was out of curiosity, and the second that I already understood some of the ritual stuff so it seemed like a natural step to join.

Because speculative freemasonry started out as a purely Christian organization

Can you provide sources for this statement? It is my opinion that many
of the founding Fathers of \"Speculative\" Freemasonry would have been classified as Deists rather than Christian as it was and is understood.
Possibly even Unitarians.