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Is ATS and UFOlogy a playground for Government mind control researchers?

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posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:26 PM
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One of the biggest "group thinks" I've been witness to over the past 15 years is the mythology that has evolved around a group of men perpetuated by those who have corrupt data but have a serious axe to grind (usually a deeply personal one).


It's amazing how readily accepted as fact a series of out of context quotes become in this area.


Springer...

[edit on 11-28-2006 by Springer]




posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:44 PM
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Right , "Group Think" that's a P.C. term that describes what I'm talking about.

I had a feeling you ( Shawnna ) would understand.

The reason I wouldn't use it myself is because it is "P.C." and also for this reason from your wiki link.


en.wikipedia.org...

" The term "groupthink" is generally used in a derogatory manner, being generally attached to poor decisions and not to collective successes, and usually post facto."



Where the "effect" of "conforming to the group" is present not only in a time of "bad" decision or upon review after the fact , but all the time.



[edit on 28-11-2006 by lost_shaman]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by Springer

One of the biggest "group thinks" I've been witness to over the past 15 years is the mythology that has evolved around a group of men perpetuated by those who have corrupt data but have a serious axe to grind (usually a deeply personal one).




O.k. Springer I'll take the bait here.

The "Aviary" ( I'm not encouraging it or endorsing it here ) has been discussed for years and years , well before I ever had my own close encounter with a UFO.

Clearly some dis-information has been spread over the years , as a conspiracy it really boils down to how much and what don't you think?



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 12:13 AM
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Originally posted by lost_shaman
The "Aviary" ( I'm not encouraging it or endorsing it here ) has been discussed for years and years , well before I ever had my own close encounter with a UFO.

Clearly some dis-information has been spread over the years , as a conspiracy it really boils down to how much and what don't you think?


YES there has been disinfo spread about, 99.9999% of it was relative to the stealth fighter/bomber program in the 1980's. Less than 3 of the "Aviary" had ANY knowledge much less involvement in that STUPID ploy. Less than half of these men have EVER MET each other.

Consider the source of the "moniker". (that should tell you enough)

The "mind control" hoax is a joke. Perpetuated by the same ilk as the serpo hoax. (that should say it all)

I have met and got to know people from BOTH SIDES, the "aviary" and the hoaxers/obsessed not to mention a couple Skunk Works guys... It's pure bollocks IMHO.

What I have seen happen is the chasing away of the some of the most brilliant minds on the planet who actually have a GENUINE INTEREST, as a HUMAN BEING not a disinfo/mind control freak, in these topics. Now I wonder WHY the charlatans are so keen on chasing away the best and brightest?


COULD IT BE they fear exposure?




Springer...

[edit on 11-28-2006 by Springer]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 01:00 AM
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You know...I hate to rain on the parade here but this article ticks me off to a certain degree and I will explain why. The one part of the article that caught my eye was the quote below and I'm glad you bolded it.

Quote:
Joining Colonel John Alexander, a global authority on non-lethal weapons and defense, will be Dr. Christopher Green, a forensic medicine and electrophysiology specialist, Dr. Edward Stephen, a specialist in pharmacology and bioterrorism defense, and Dr. Allen Bain, a leading pharmacologist focused on specialised drug development including new treatments for disorders of electrically active tissue.

I have talked a little about this in the past...My little run in with the Secret Service back in 2003 at my work place. The agent wanted me to sign 2 forms and me being the frightened stupid rabbit i was,,I signed it. Reason:2 months prior I got a little over expressive about El Honcho in DC

1st Form: Consent to search my premises for weapons make sure I wasnt a real threat..that was understandable.
2nd Form: Was a release of my medical records: Why would they want my medical records?

After the agent and a representative from the State Atty Generals Office searched my apartment and knew i wasnt a threat and they gave the green light we left and came back to my work. My boss almost more shook up than me told me to take lunch.

Well..when I got back after picking something up at a sandwich shop I returned to my apartment. The apartment was a small complex (35 units max) There was another apartment complex next to mine. This is what was weird> I saw 7 workman come out of an apartment the size of mine (efficency sized) At first I thought they were hispanic workers just glancing...I looked a little closer again and they had middle eastern features and there was a shorter man that looked kinda like Mario (from the video game) I knew he was the boss the way he carried himself. Now why would 7 men..that looked middle eastern,,,not hispanic be doing in a 365 sf apartment?

After I left to go back to work I saw a white van pull out of the complex next to mine where I saw the 7 workers except these guys looked like skin heads..aryan nation types. The driver looked at me like "im gonna kill you" it was all weird.

This is what hits home with me:
Ok that was what happened and this is what makes me mad. I started having irregular heart beats 3 months afterward the Secret Service thing. First was in New Mexico and I ended up going to the ER i was really geeking over it...I kept thinking,,,This is it "heart attack"

Anyways...I have had it on and off for 3 years now...just 5 months ago it started to get worse and I consulted an electrophysiologist (cardiologist that deals with A Fib and the electrical system of the heart etc) in September of 2006. Now I'm taking this anti arrythmic medication..its alot better than it was before but still pops up every 4 days but doesnt last long as it use to without the medication.

4 days ago I had a weird dream:
I dreamt I had a procedure to correct the irregular hear beat by a procedure known as Ablation where they run a catheter up into the heart that has a tip where radio waves can be emitted. They can find the area Sinus Nodes and where the cardiac tissue is misfiring the electrophysiologist creates small scar tissue to block off the eratic currents that cause Atrial Fibrilation. After the surgeon was finished in my dream he told me I would have to wait 4 days to see if I was in the clear (from death, that as in cardiac arrest) Heres the weird part: He said he worked for the NSA



Theres alot of weird sh*t that happens day to day with me....the weird numbers I see all the time....way beyond reptitive coincidences...seeing shadows dart by my peripheal vision...hearing sounds like someone rustling stuff in the living room etc

I feel like a bastard Child of MK Ultra..I really do

[edit on 28-11-2006 by magnito_student]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 02:44 AM
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With all due respect, Springer, I could care less about the moniker or moniker's source.

:shk:

What I care about is the factual information related to individuals involved in these stories. And when you see the same individuals involved over and over again, it doesn't take a rocket scientist too long to figure out there must be a connection.



With respect to the mind control aspect, I strongly suggest you do a little independent research yourself - you'll soon discover that these same individuals have been involved in this area as well. There is quite a bit of documentation - for starters - read this and ask Dr. Green about it next time you chat with him.

And if you're truly interested in going further down this stinking rabbit hole - www.jse.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">here's another article that should at least show that there's more to this than trying to conceal the stealth fighter/bomber program.

:shk:

And just for good measure, here's another article by Col. John B. Alexander from the National Institute for Discovery Science.


Always,
Shawnna



[edit on 28-11-2006 by Shawnna]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by magnito_student
I feel like a bastard Child of MK Ultra..I really do



I am so sorry to hear about your experiences magnito_student - I do believe you are absolutely right in making the connection to your 2003 situation, and urge you to continue to seek out those who understand this area.

Always,
Shawnna



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 07:29 AM
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Originally posted by Shawnna
Within your first link I found another link to one of the most coherent articles I've seen yet on this topic. [NON-LETHALITY: JOHN B. ALEXANDER, THE PENTAGON'S PENGUIN By Armen Victorian]


Hi,

Um, Shawnna, you might want to do a bit of research into "Armen Victorian" before you place any weight on the contents of an article by him, or praise any article by him.

You risk harming your own credibility by making such statements...

"Armen Victorian" was the subject of an entertaining documentary a year or two ago. The website relating to that documentary is still online:
www.mythologist.co.uk...

All the best,

Isaac Koi



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 08:02 AM
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um, Isaac, I am not placing any weight on any one article or individual's report. I have not watched that documentary, but I plan to if it's still available somewhere. Thank you for the link!



Rather, I am looking at the facts as they relate to this overall area - and especially the individuals who appear to be involved in these stories over and over again.

If you have factual information that shows that anything I have reported is false, please do share.



Always,
Shawnna

PS - Isn't this interesting, John Lundberg, the individual who did the documentary you pointed me to, was brought into an email exchange I had with Bill Ryan of Serpo fame earlier this year.



I'm away from my desktop for a few days but I'll have to dig that up unless someone else was also in the loop on that and can share it?

I believe someone earlier in this discussion talked about tendrils - yes indeed.


[edit on 28-11-2006 by Shawnna]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 09:03 AM
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And definitely worth the read, please see this three-part report.

Part 1.

Part 2.

Part 3.


A little snip from Part 3



While evidence for alien technology remains elusive, there is experiential and experimental evidence to support claims of Extra Sensory Perception. During the remote viewing programs and AMP (Anomalous Mental Phenomena) studies, conducted essentially within the United States and Russia, a paranormal reality gained recognition through empirical analysis. Its potential applications sparked the interest of the Intelligence community and later the military establishments, specifically its implementation in gaining a superior edge in psychological warfare. The paranormal world, previously ascribed to the mystic, magician, charlatan or the lunatic as some might postulate, became integrated within the special programs labs, funded by Intelligence and Military bodies.

This wasn’t a first of course; Hitler’s interest in the paranormal to gain an edge in warfare is well documented. The fact that the Former Soviet Union followed closely on Nazi Germany’s tail, pre-dating American interest in the subject, is of considerable interest but no surprise when we take the Nazi and Communist atheistic paradigms into consideration, as opposed to a nation founded on Christian ideals, wherein paranormal interests are largely taboo.

America found herself caught with her proverbial pants down in respect to Russia’s AMP research. Word filtered through the Intel grapevine that there just might be something to this research and America went about setting up her own experimental projects.

In a CIA memo titled "INSTITUTES, LABORATORIES, AND CENTERS PERFORMING RESEARCH ON UNCONVENTIONAL BIOPHYSICS, PARAPSYCHOLOGY, AND PSYCHOPHYSICALOGY" released under the Freedom of Information Act, a number of Soviet scientists, physicists and subjects are listed, alongside their respective institutions and keywords, dates and/or research. The earliest date noted is 1920, with the key words ESP, Mental suggestion on dogs. Other Keywords, spanning dates from 1962, up to 1974, include: Telepathy, PK, clairvoyance, biomagnetism, kirlian, dermo-optics, Skin vision and subliminal perception.

In 1952, the Department of Defense was lectured on the possible usefulness of ESP in psychological warfare. Reports gathered through various bodies continued to build momentum. Then in 1961, the reports sparked the interest of the Chief of CIA’s Office of the Technical Service Division. Technical project officers contacted Stephen Abrams, then Director of the Parapsychology Laboratory at Oxford University, England. Abrams wrote a review paper in which he stated that ESP was demonstrated but not understood or controllable. It wasn’t until a decade later that a serious interest was taken, when Dr. Russell Targ and Dr. Harold Puthoff re-awakened CIA interest in parapsychological research.

In April, 1972, Dr. Targ met with CIA personnel from OSI (Office of Scientific Intelligence) and revealed that he had contacts with people who claimed to have witnessed and documented Soviet investigations into psychokinesis. Soviet films were made available to OSI for analysis. In turn, OSI contacted ORD (Office of Research and Development) who eventually sent an ORD Project Officer to visit Targ, who was now at SRI (Stanford Research Institute) to discuss research possibilities. Targ suggested that psychokinetic research could be conducted at SRI in conjunction with Dr. Puthoff.

Lab tests quickly followed. A subject, with reputed psychokinetic abilities, was discovered by Targ and Puthoff and taken to the physics department at SRI, where Dr. Hebbard had a shielded magnetometer set up for high energy particle experiments. The subject effectively disturbed the output signal and several other demonstrations of his mental abilities proved successful. The event was summarized and a report was sent to OSI and discussions were taken up with the OTS (Office of Technical Services).




And please, keep your tin-foil hat firmly in place!



Always,
Shawnna



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 01:21 PM
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Originally posted by Shawnna

What I care about is the factual information


I would suggest accepting stories posted by those with an agenda as factual makes for dubious research at best, I'm not saying that's what you're doing but, rather, it appears as though that's what you're doing here.

I don't consider any of what I've seen on the web (and I've seen most if not all of it) regarding the "Aviary" as "factual information". Are there facts sprinkled in? You bet. But the context is nothing but mythos IMHO.


Originally posted by Shawnna
With respect to the mind control aspect, I strongly suggest you do a little independent research yourself - you'll soon discover that these same individuals have been involved in this area as well. ask Dr. Green about it next time you chat with him.


I read that article 2 or 3 years ago
... Nothing very shocking in it and it reads like the typical "Aviary mythology". What do you expect an MD working with DOD and the CIA to be involved in? That does NOT automatically mean they were involved in an unethical/evil manner however.
PsyOps is not "evil" just because it is an effort to control the mind of the enemy. I would suggest loud noise is MUCH LESS "evil" than bullets. Persuasion, advertising, design, art, all seek to "control the mind" as well are they inherently evil too?


Springer...


[edit on 11-28-2006 by Springer]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 01:57 PM
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Springer.....

If it appears that's what I'm doing, then I haven't made myself clear.

For that, I apologize.


Originally posted by SpringerI would suggest accepting stories posted by those with an agenda as factual makes for dubious research at best, I'm not saying that's what you're doing but, rather, it appears as though that's what you're doing here.

I don't consider any of what I've seen on the web (and I've seen most if not all of it) regarding the "Aviary" as "factual information". Are there facts sprinkled in? You bet. But the context is nothing but mythos IMHO.


As I've stated before, if there is something I've posted that you believe is inaccurate, please be specific.

My interpretation of information is based on a number of factors; not the least of which is information (some as yet to be published) obtained as a result of the serpo investigation.


Originally posted by SpringerI read that article 2 or 3 years ago ... Nothing very shocking in it and it reads like the typical "Aviary mythology". What do you expect an MD working with DOD and the CIA to be involved in? That does NOT automatically mean they were involved in an unethical/evil manner however. PsyOps is not "evil" just because it is an effort to control the mind of the enemy. I would suggest loud noise is MUCH LESS "evil" than bullets. Persuasion, advertising, design, art, all seek to "control the mind" as well are they inherently evil too?


Did you ask Dr. Green about that article? I'd be curious what he had to say to you if you did ask him about it.



And since when did innocent and unknowing US citizens (even if they are/were in prison) become the "enemy"?

As I'm sure you'll find to be true - if you choose to venture down this rabbit hole - it is indeed factual that the government-sponsored PsyOps projects; e.g. MK-ULTRA etc - did indeed use innocent and uninformed US citizens in their research.

This is EVIL and should not be excused - by anyone.

:shk:

Always,
Shawnna



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by Shawnna
My interpretation of information is based on a number of factors; not the least of which is information (some as yet to be published) obtained as a result of the serpo investigation.


Fair enough.


Originally posted by Shawnna

And since when did innocent and unknowing US citizens (even if they are/were in prison) become the "enemy"?

As I'm sure you'll find to be true - if you choose to venture down this rabbit hole - it is indeed factual that the government-sponsored PsyOps projects; e.g. MK-ULTRA etc - did indeed use innocent and uninformed US citizens in their research.

This is EVIL and should not be excused - by anyone.



I agree with that statement 100% with the qualifier of "it depends greatly on what was actually done to the innocent and unknowing". I agree our government has done some terrible experiments, I just don't agree that anyone I know was involved any of it.


That's the whole "context" issue. The mythology I've read assumes MUCH. It assumes that everyone who was involved with PsyOps was involved in these nefarious experiments and it just isn't so, compartmentalization would deny that possibility. There is so much incorrect combining of names and projects out there it's very easy to get horrible data. This is exacerbated by the fact most of the actual data is classified.

It's pretty easy to make broad brushed statements about a group of men who performed classified work for our government.

It's also pretty unrealistic to expect them to "set the record straight" when they legally can't discuss it.

So...

Logic tells me that if someone is ethical in ALL non classified aspects of his career and is held in very high regard by other very ethical people he is probably telling the truth when he states he did NOTHING unethical or "evil" as part of his classified duties.


Springer...



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by Springer

I agree with that statement 100% with the qualifier of "it depends greatly on what was actually done to the innocent and unknowing".



I disagree 100% with this statement. From where I sit, there is NO justification for any government agency or system to impose any kind of research on in uninformed citizenry.

To say anything else leads to a slippery slope that should never be tolerated by a just, and ethical society.



Originally posted by SpringerI agree our government has done some terrible experiments, I just don't agree that anyone I know was involved any of it.



To think that anyone you know, or have had the opportunity to speak to, would come out and admit to such involvement is naive, at best.



Originally posted by SpringerThat's the whole "context" issue. The mythology I've read assumes MUCH. It assumes that everyone who was involved with PsyOps was involved in these nefarious experiments and it just isn't so, compartmentalization would deny that possibility. There is so much incorrect combining of names and projects out there it's very easy to get horrible data. This is exacerbated by the fact most of the actual data is classified.

It's pretty easy to make broad brushed statements about a group of men who performed classified work for our government.

It's also pretty unrealistic to expect them to "set the record straight" when they legally can't discuss it.

So...

Logic tells me that if someone is ethical in ALL non classified aspects of his career and is held in very high regard by other very ethical people he is probably telling the truth when he states he did NOTHING unethical or "evil" as part of his classified duties.


Springer...



I apologize for being repetitive here but.........

If I have shared information that you believe is inaccurate, please be specific.

Personally, I do expect individuals of integrity and honor to do what is right when confronted with factual information about an area they had an opportunity to influence. And perhaps this means making sure that those involved are brought to justice, or at the very least, making sure that everything in their power is done to assure similar research is not ongoing or planned.

In the end, we only have ourselves to blame if we don't hold those responsible accountable for their despicable actions. But before that can occur, the truth must be told.

Always,
Shawnna

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Shawnna]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 05:46 PM
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Hmmmm... verrrry interesting. Still digesting it, a few bites at a time, and have some opinions that share commonalities with both (all three?) sides of the issue. Those can wait. But in the meantime, just wanted to congratulate springer, shawna, et al, for one of the better intellectually stimulating conversations on ATS in some time. Your contributions are quite valuable...

Thank you - and please keep posting!



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 07:08 PM
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My point was IF the "experiments" were subliminal advertising or something that innocuous, well that's life. It happens all the time and it's naive to think you'll be told about it.

I'll have Kit's response to the review of the MYTHOLOGY LACED references you put up shortly, assuming he gives me permission to post them (I am confident he will), which will completely support my points about this bollocks being "sprinkled with facts" but based in false mythology.



Additionally, the reality of our society is such that our government is only as valid and just as the people who lead it. That's why we don't live in a democracy, we live in a Representative Republic, in the hope that Representatives we elect will serve us according to our values.

The "Democracy" part of our government system doesn't actuate at the citizen voting booths, it takes place in the Houses of Congress and the Senate.


Springer...

[edit on 11-28-2006 by Springer]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 07:41 PM
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Outstanding exchange of mind positions between Springer & Shawnna. Simply and brilliantly outstanding.

not wanting to cut in - of course MKUltra is best known as non phenomena.

Dallas



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by Springer
My point was IF the "experiments" were subliminal advertising or something that innocuous, well that's life. It happens all the time and it's naive to think you'll be told about it.



To compare US government sponsored PsyOps projects to subliminal advertising or something that innocuous is not a fair comparison, and one I personally find insulting.

If these projects were that innocuous, there would be no need to hide them via covert CIA or other military operations.

:shk:



Originally posted by SpringerI'll have Kit's response to the review of the MYTHOLOGY LACED references you put up shortly, assuming he gives me permission to post them (I am confident he will), which will completely support my points about this bollocks being "sprinkled with facts" but based in false mythology.



I anxiously await the results of your conversation.






Originally posted by SpringerAdditionally, the reality of our society is such that our government is only as valid and just as the people who lead it. That's why we don't live in a democracy, we live in a Representative Republic, in the hope that Representatives we elect will serve us according to our values.

The "Democracy" part of our government system doesn't actuate at the citizen voting booths, it takes place in the Houses of Congress and the Senate.


Springer...

[edit on 11-28-2006 by Springer]



I agree 100% and I have edited my post and replaced "democratic" with "ethical". I appreciate the opportunity to make that correction.



Always,
Shawnna



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by Outrageo
Hmmmm... verrrry interesting. Still digesting it, a few bites at a time, and have some opinions that share commonalities with both (all three?) sides of the issue. Those can wait. But in the meantime, just wanted to congratulate springer, shawna, et al, for one of the better intellectually stimulating conversations on ATS in some time. Your contributions are quite valuable...

Thank you - and please keep posting!



Thank YOU, Outrageo!

Please join in! The more ideas, the better the discussion!

Always,
Shawnna



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Shawnna

To compare US government sponsored PsyOps projects to subliminal advertising or something that innocuous is not a fair comparison, and one I personally find insulting.

If these projects were that innocuous, there would be no need to hide them via covert CIA or other military operations.


That statement, that assumption, that "if they weren't evil/dangerous (I am paraphrasing) they wouldn't hide them" is the basis of MUCH mythology!

There are MANY MANY MANY applications that are VERY innocuous, VERY SIMPLE and UTTERLY NOT evil that are classified and hidden to the highest levels of security for THAT VERY REASON.

They are VERY EASY to duplicate, the technology may be very complex but its application may be very simple and public knowledge of it ruins the advantage.

This mythos of "if it's hidden it's got to be evil" is just not logical IMHO.


(Still waiting on permission, stay tuned)

Springer...

[edit on 11-28-2006 by Springer]



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